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| Topic: Throw down - part 2 | |
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Edited by
Eljay
on
Thu 08/14/08 05:14 PM
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The text of Genesis 19 implies that God approved of Lot's behavior, even though he made an offer of his virgin daughters to be raped. This approval would have been extended to Lot's family as well. But God apparently had a fierce anger directed at the other inhabitants of the town. He destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone (sulfur) dumped from above. According to the story, he killed all of the men and women of Sodom, as well as all the innocent children, infants, newborns, etc. who lived in the city. Once again, god at his finest. Yes - very similar to the judgements passed on the Nazi's after WW2. Is it your opinion that the trials of Nuremborg were a travesty to those poor Nazi's? What should they have done with them - sent them home with a slap on the wrist? Woud that have been "man at his finest"? Okay - so the analogy is extreme. But the point is - that there is a back history here. Are you familiar with it? Well except Nazi's were grown men who were in fact soldiers of the Third Reich under direct command of Adolph Hitler. That is a very far reaching comparison. None of these villagers found in Sodom or any of the neighboring towns were allowed a trial as the captured Nazi’s were in Nuremburg. They were not given a chance to talk with counsel nor invoke their constitutional rights. They never once were able to explain their side of events and what might have been occurring. I think that is what I take issue with here. The fact that Yahweh dropped sulfur on men, women, children and infants guilty or not is a little bit troubling to me. I find your analogy to be quite insufficient. Perhaps you should re-examine your issue then - for the people of Sodom & Gomorrah WERE given a trial. It was Abraham who spoke in their defense. At first Abraham asked the Lord to spare S&G if 50 rightious men were found. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 45. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 40. The Lord said he would spare them if there were 40. Then Abraham asked for 30. The Lord said he would spare them. Then he asked for 20. The Lord agreed. Finally Abraham asked that they be spared for the sake of 10 rightious men. TEN! Out of a population of two cities! For the sake of ten men - the Lord said he would spare them. (Genesis 18: 16-33) I would say that is some haggling job by Abraham. Then we find that all the men - from every part of the city - YOUNG and old - came with less than good intentions. The reason why these cities were destroyed was because of the outcries from the people of the surrounding area's whom were terrorized by the people of S&G. So much so - that not even 10 rightious men were to be found amoungst them. so apparently - since you seem outraged by this - have you considered what might have been a better solution? I'd be curious to hear it. Eljay I was referring to your comparison of the peoples of S & G with Adolph Hitler and the Third Reich. I explained why I felt that was a poor analogy. Did you even read my comment? The men accused of these war crimes were under the direct command of Adolph Hitler. When Yahweh took it upon himself in the biblical tale to torch not only men, but innocent women, children and infants of these townships, I felt that to be wrong. I’m sorry if you don’t agree. That is my opinion and I will stick by it. As Redy mentioned, we need to look at these fables in the context and time period of which they were written. The same holds true of Leviticus. Yahweh would have been considered to be this "all knowing" omnipotent power so he would find it suitable to act as sitting judge, prosecutor and jury. I simply found that to be quite egregious. I would also be curious as to what your solution would be if you were in god's position here? I sincerely hope not to brutally burn to death innocent women, children and infants along with any adult males you felt were guilty of some undisclosed and debatable criminality? This was also not the issue that was initially brought forward. It was the fact that Lot essentially offered up his two, virgin daughters to this mob that approached him at his home. The intention of some of these men, although I’m sure you will disagree, was to sexually assault the two male angel visitors that Lot has hidden in his dwelling. The daughters were to be considered in exchange for these men in order that they are satiated and move on their way, thus leaving the angels unharmed. I also find this to be quite despicable, although, as noted, women did not enjoy all of the same rights and privileges that men did in this time period. This was obviously a sacrifice Lot was willing to make. At the time of the writing of Genesis - corporal punishment was the law of the land. They went out of their way to create the most excruciating methods of killing people who were lawless. For that matter - killing people who were not of their tribe - and the reference is not to that of the Jewish population. Where's your outrage for the people who did not worship the God of the Jews sacrificing their "innocent" children to hte God's so that their grape harvest would yeild more wine for the orgies? As to the Nazi's... don't be decieved. These were people who eagerly joined Hitlers military and who not only bought into what He was doing, but helped create it. You make this "broad assumption" about the innocence of woman and children. Lot offered up his daughters because - had he not, the entire township of S&G would have been wiped out by these two angels. You may not be aware of this, but Lot was. This was an attempt on his part to choose the lesser of two evils. He chose correctly. Both He, and his family were spared. Now - you were saying about how you would have handled this S&G issue differently? You can't have this both ways and demand your questions be responded to - and ignore the ones asked of you. So you are asking me to condone the brutal torture and murder of ALL of the inhabitants of these towns simply because Yahweh decided that these people were evil or had done something wrong? Sorry. That may be fine with you however I take great issue with it. You speak as if you lavish the thought of murder and torture. It’s creepy. If something is clearly heinous and out of control, it is within your power to stand up and claim it is wrong instead of blindly going along with it because this false mysterious, omnipotent lunatic claims it is. Show some backbone for goodness sake. You still do not understand what I am attempting to convey to you about Hitler and the Third Reich. I am explaining that it is an inaccurate comparison you are making because adult male high ranking soldiers subjected to Israeli law and criminal proceedings were privy to counsel and convicted of their crimes in a court of law. The infants, women and children burned alive by having Yahweh pour sulfur on them from the sky, eh, not so much. Surely you can recognize the difference in the two scenarios? I know in your mind, even the babies and children deserved this fate. I once again, refuse to be swept up into your net of hate and will call you on it each and every time. As far as Lot is concerned and him offering his two virgin daughters to this mob so that he could claim his own safety, absolutely despicable. There is no minimizing this one, nor rationalizing it away. I have answered every question put to me thus far. So now I ask yet again that you answer only one. If you were in the place of Yahweh, would you have ordered the brutal murder of every last man, woman, child and infant? As to the Nazi annalogy - I premised it was extreme so why are you taking what I said literally as a one to one correlation? I didn't say Lot did it for his own safety - YOU DID. Reread my post. As to "God murdering S&G", he only killed those who refused to leave. They laughed at Lot and called him a fool. Anyone in S&G could have left safetly with Lot. They perished because of their lust and pride. God said he would destroy S&G because of the evil desires of the people there. Who takes the blame for their mockery and refusing to leave? This is the third time I'm asking this question: What would you have had God do about the issues of S&G. I don't see a response to that question. If you don't have an answer - just say so. Yes and I have explained to you twice now just why your comparison of S&G and the Third Reich is inaccurate. Not simply "extreme" by your own admition, but completely inadaptable. If you don’t understand the difference at this point, I just do not know what can be done about that. 
I have also explained my position as it relates to the act of Lot offering his virgin daughters to this mob. I find it to be absolutely disgusting and deplorable. I will not simply go along with it like a mindless automaton and say well god says its okay and it did end up sparing his family so the end justifies the means. What if the mob HAD in fact taken him up in his offer? What then Eljay? Lot had no way of knowing that they would not. If they were all homosexual males, why bother? They perished because of their "lust and pride". What the? So presumably because these men were having consensual sex with other males, they deserved to all burn to death? That’s awful. So now you are trying to say well, it was their own fault because they had the option to leave and they chose not to. Why would god bother to destroy these towns unless he wanted to kill as many of the "sodomites" as he possibly could? Huh? He was pissed off and I wouldn’t attempt to downplay it like that. You are far better off sticking to your original premise that yes, god was angry and he was taking a few of these people out of the picture. I HAVE answered every single question posed. You refuse to answer if you would have also murdered every last man, woman, child and infant within the limits of S&G. I believe I deserve the courtesy of an answer simply based on what I have brought to the table thus far. Remember I have posed these problems within the bible. The least you can do is attempt to answer the questions brought forth or in this case, refute my claim that Yahweh was out of control here and excessive in delivering this punishment. I sure am glad our modern legal system does not operate in this fashion. We would be in trouble. Response delete - as it just wasn't worth it. |
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Krimsa I got it Redy, thanks. Either way, it’s pretty horrible. I guess just another compassionate loving god spreading the joy around. Never mind if it’s mixed up with a little scalding hot sulfur dropped from above.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct and your reasoning is exactly the reason why this creates yet another inconsistency. It never occurs to people that if it's so easy for a creator to create out of nothing, then destroying that which it created means little. But Christians have bought into the whole belief that they inherited emotions from god which naturally means that god does things becase It is moved to do so through emotions. If god proceeds on emotion then god is unpredictable and all attempts by an imperfect, sinful creation, are prone to the whims of an emotional god on any given day. "Misconceptions about what Chrstians think". Do some research on this topic. That is his answer every time he is cornered on something in particular... No - this is my response every time a professed Atheist attempts to inform me that they have a clearer understanding of Christianity than I do. |
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Okay, by your reasoning Eljay, NYC is a city with a population of a little over 8 mil? Give or take? I have no idea. Something like that. Okay a certain percentage of that populace is adult males, another percentage is adult females, and then you have children and infants.
By your logic we could probably determine that a percentage of that same population of NYC is involved with criminal endeavors or behaviors. We could probably look at what the murder/rape statistics were for the city of NYC last year alone and come up with a number. Alright, torch them all, every single person in NYC, men, women, children, babies. Doesn’t matter because its god's will and he's fed up with it. Sorry. It’s just not my way of doing things. Maybe it’s yours, but it’s not mine. |
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Edited by
davidben1
on
Thu 08/14/08 06:45 PM
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evil is only committed by a mind that misunderstands itself, and has been told it is evil, by many professors of others actions as evil each day, and by all mediums heard and seen, as if the actions be professed to be as evil, then what that hears will not access then their own thoguths as evil, as what action was committed that did not first come in the thought stage, and what that sees it own thoughts as evil, will not view itself as evil, and then perform evil, even more each day.....
most the "evil" from kids in this age is perpetuated from ones that seek to cage hearts, and make all others as themself, and make one law of one heart as what is best for all, and naturally rebellion will ensue...... is not perfect love supposed to be had by any that know the truth of text, and this is supposed to be able to cast out fear of being evil, so what whole truth ever spoken would not result in more evil being produced....... if each speaker deem themself as the speaker of truth, and the hearer as ignorant, what can be expected but total chaos, as soon what speaker does not see all that do not hear as evil, and not see oneself is creating.......... does not the hearer ALWAYS have to be the one that decide truth, as what other thing can be the measure of good and profitable words spoken, than if they stop evil from WANTING to be produced........... if each speaker deem themself as the holy grail of truth, then will not the world be full of speakers all accusing hearers of ignorance and stupidity, lol........ if hearers actions and are not changed by words, then the speaker has to be the one to take the blame, or there is no truth to ever be found, and only a circle of blame that never end......... |
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Krimsa I got it Redy, thanks. Either way, it’s pretty horrible. I guess just another compassionate loving god spreading the joy around. Never mind if it’s mixed up with a little scalding hot sulfur dropped from above.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct and your reasoning is exactly the reason why this creates yet another inconsistency. It never occurs to people that if it's so easy for a creator to create out of nothing, then destroying that which it created means little. But Christians have bought into the whole belief that they inherited emotions from god which naturally means that god does things becase It is moved to do so through emotions. If god proceeds on emotion then god is unpredictable and all attempts by an imperfect, sinful creation, are prone to the whims of an emotional god on any given day. "Misconceptions about what Chrstians think". Do some research on this topic. That is his answer every time he is cornered on something in particular... No - this is my response every time a professed Atheist attempts to inform me that they have a clearer understanding of Christianity than I do. So do you think a Christian always has a "clearer understanding" of Christianity than an atheist or a non-Christian? Why? I think that the more you actually know about Christianity the least likely you are to become a Christian. Some Christians who have abandoned Christianity know more about it than people who are practicing Christians. I'm not one of them. I know very little about Christianity and its history, but I know enough to stay out of it. JB |
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Thu 08/14/08 07:15 PM
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JB,
this may come as a shock or as argumetative, but christianity is not a practice. It is not a learned distinction like aphysician practicing medicine. It is not the same as one who practices the martial arts. It is not a practice with which one familiarizes oneself with and then employs as an endeavor of self discovery. Christianity is a way of life and to that end, it is not for everybody, but no one is excluded at any time from being welcomed into the family if God, so hid in Christ. hid in Christ, JB. not hid in themselves. found by God, JB not finding a discilpine to practice. those that view it as practice are pretty much not convincing to God and God will not just willy nilly dump on you what all is entailed and then give you cause for pause. It is real and notti=o be taken lightly when entering in, and those that are not sincere in their convictions that they have beheld the beginnings of the righteousness of God being offered them are not focused on the truth about the Christian way of life, sufficient enough for God to make an educated guess about ones resolve. As Jesus has said, if you aren't all in and are not willing to forsake all to enter in, then you will not. There is no wiggle room for doubt and unbelief. An unstable decision is the instability of the person and a double minded person can expect to receive nothing from Jesus, concerning the things of God in Christ Jesus. Discernemnt of the truth that exists in the heart is known to God and that is the clincher. And for the thoughts in the mind to be acceptabler to god there must also be accompanying intent in the heart and it must already be steadfast and sure within ones own strength before God reveals His strength and resolve to the heart and soul for the enrichment of the irghteouness of God, not the righteousness of man. The Lord becomes the chritstian's righteousness, and that so that no one confuses the righteousness of God with any form of meritorious righteousness. righteousness by works alone is sufficient to stand in ones own merits if that is the choice in concert with ines own mind and spirit(heart). Reciving of the righteousness of God, in Christ, is according to things of God peertained to specifically of Jesus Christ as of God and not from men. I am sure you have heard this all before ad infinitum from Christians everywhere and it makes no sense to you now perhaps. I only bring it up to show you the difference between words that mean more than the words themselves. a practice. or a way of life. 
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 08/14/08 07:33 PM
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Hmm a couple things you said there I would take issue with wouldnee as not being 100% kosher so to speak.
"Christianity is a way of life and to that end, it is not for everybody, but no one is excluded at any time from being welcomed into the family if God, so hid in Christ." This statement here is not entirely true. It might be sometimes but there are certainly those fundamentalists’ sects that won’t accept openly gay members or create any number of reasons to exclude people or attempt to give them cause to feel badly about themselves. "There is no wiggle room for doubt and unbelief." So in other words, if I have ANY questions about this faith, I am unworthy and I better just take it outside. Alrighty then. |
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Thu 08/14/08 07:35 PM
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If Christianity is a way of life, then name me one single thing that only a Christian does, that defines the way they live?
Name a single action, thought, or feeling that you must be Christian to pursue? Name a single act that requires you to be Christian . . . . lol BTW this is soo much more fun then the Physics forums I troll. |
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Thu 08/14/08 08:08 PM
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Hmm a couple things you said there I would take issue with wouldnee as not being 100% kosher so to speak. "Christianity is a way of life and to that end, it is not for everybody, but no one is excluded at any time from being welcomed into the family if God, so hid in Christ." This statement here is not entirely true. It might be sometimes but there are certainly those fundamentalists’ sects that won’t accept openly gay members or create any number of reasons to exclude people or attempt to give them cause to feel badly about themselves. "There is no wiggle room for doubt and unbelief." So in other words, if I have ANY questions about this faith, I am unworthy and I better just take it outside. Alrighty then. Krimsa, valid point, were I speaking to you. But JB has been around here long enough to know the difference between Christianity and we Christians have been calling churchianity. it has been churchianity that lets down any number of people by giving then false hopes and shortcuts nowing full well they themselves have nothing better than their own imaginative expression of what they import into the way of life. It is a major PR problem LOL Chruchianity has been the coined term for man based pseudo-christianity from the beginning. There is a difference. In addressing Jb, that is understood already. the new buzz word here is protestantism. LOL it seems the confused are unwilling to accept Chriustianity's label for churchianity so they morph it a bit. LOL
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Thu 08/14/08 08:04 PM
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it has been churchianity that lets down any number of people by giving then false hopes and shortcuts nowing full well they themselves have nothing better than their own imaginative expression of what they import into the way of life. It is a major PR problem LOL Chruchianity has been the coined term for man based pseudo-christianity from the beginning. There is a difference. In addressing Jb, that is understood already. the new buzz word here is protestantism. LOL it seems the confused are unwilling to accept Chriustianity's label for churchianity so they morph it a bit. LOL
I can certainly understand and appreciate that. I completely agree that most people I meet label themselves Christians and have not even read the bible. Its a great label . . . bad PR? I do not agree with. The BEST PR EVER is religion in general and here in the states Christianity. But again I understand your point, and my point is not counter to your point, but a slightly different observation. |
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If Christianity is a way of life, then name me one single thing that only a Christian does, that defines the way they live? Name a single action, thought, or feeling that you must be Christian to pursue? Name a single act that requires you to be Christian . . . . lol BTW this is soo much more fun then the Physics forums I troll. relinguishing the control of your life to God in spirit and in truth according to Jesus message alone, come what may is the start and without that in the heart and mind there is not going to "be" any "being" a Christian. Wearing that which Jesus Christ wore on the inside is the "clean". And if you want to assume that "pursue" is appropriate to say in that regard, then "pursue" is not going to work . It takes "yielding" to the the Holy Spirit to grow, and growth comes to all from God to each so given and it is not the person that "pursues" their own, but is apprehended of to grow in knowledge and understanding and wisdom in the things of God, hid in Christ that one become conmformed to a perfect person in that perfection is the perfect obedience to the Holy Spirit as is Jesus. As he said, I cannot say or do anything except my father give it me. Hiw will I do and his Will being done is pleasing to the Father. We are adopted in, through Christ, but we are not naturally sons and daughters of God, but adopted heirs. We are not Christ Himself who said of Himself, "Before Abraham was, I am." But we are the righteousness of God, in that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is in us by the Holy Spirit and it is Christ in us that the Father sees, not us. we grow daily, He came in His fulness. There is a difference. That is my answer. no more questions, bushi, on this. if you wanted it or want it, then seek God, not men. If you have a desire to learn of Jesus, seek that out. I need not say more. 
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Thu 08/14/08 08:52 PM
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The word to key in my previous post was "Do", or "Does", and you acknowledged that.
You answered, "The Will of God" The Hubris here is that any man can truly know the will of such a being. Now if you had simply said good works, I would have at least tipped my hat. 
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Thu 08/14/08 09:03 PM
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The word to key in my previous post was "Do", or "Does", and you acknowledged that. You answered, "The Will of God" The Hubris here is that any man can truly know the will of such a being. the hubris is a prejudice, isn't it? the hubris is predetermining the outcome according to the assumption, isn't it? and the will of God is excluded by hubris? by whose will and distinction? they that know or they that assume they know on the basis of limited knowledge? you see, bushi, whether you realize it or not, hubris is excludud on the merits of the gospel itself, not by the cunning of men. It is at the very core of the message of the gospel that knowledge and understanding and wisdom thereby gleaned from God as being incumbet on the whole of the gospel message of Jesus Christ is to be so from the very start. Here is the first external clue given man that Jesus is of God and well pleasing to God... the depiction of Jesus' baptism by John. By that alone, men were given a witness of God and Jesus simultaneously. All subsequent obedience by any man to Jesus Christ and His message as from the Father and not Himself includes that the Holy Spirit is themeans by which all things of God through Jesus Christ are authoritative and God's will. Therefore it is incumbent upon all believers of Jesus to be found so apprehended of in truth if they are faithful to the message and obedient to the the expectation that obedience is better than sacrifice. Meaning that Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come and unless he left and went back to the father, the Holy Spirit would not come, but that the Father and the Son would come in the Holy Spirit. It was manifest to the disciples first at Pentacost. It was administered to Paul directly by Jesus Christ. It remains the same today. There is no hubris involved, as you see, bushi. hubris is of no weight in judgement according to knowing the will of God, Knowing the will of God is the whole duty of man, and accordingly, yourr statement is moot, not by willful abandonment, but by the very redundancy of it to the Christian way of life. So , I will ask you a question, bushi. are you testing me, or judging me or?.....  
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Edited by
Bushidobillyclub
on
Thu 08/14/08 09:20 PM
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Yes wouldee I was chatting it up the other day with Dog . . I mean God, and he was saying that I really should help the cause and test more people.
He said unto thee, Go forth and ask simple questions, and if ye get not back long paragraphs then mine followers be slack indeed. True story inspired by the Holy spirits . . . I mean spirit. |
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He said unto thee, Go forth and ask simple questions, and if ye get not back long paragraphs then mine followers be slack indeed.  
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Thu 08/14/08 10:06 PM
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the 'or' works.
 
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Okay, by your reasoning Eljay, NYC is a city with a population of a little over 8 mil? Give or take? I have no idea. Something like that. Okay a certain percentage of that populace is adult males, another percentage is adult females, and then you have children and infants. By your logic we could probably determine that a percentage of that same population of NYC is involved with criminal endeavors or behaviors. We could probably look at what the murder/rape statistics were for the city of NYC last year alone and come up with a number. Alright, torch them all, every single person in NYC, men, women, children, babies. Doesn’t matter because its god's will and he's fed up with it. Sorry. It’s just not my way of doing things. Maybe it’s yours, but it’s not mine. My bet is that you would find - well - at least 10 rightious people. What do you think? |
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Krimsa I got it Redy, thanks. Either way, it’s pretty horrible. I guess just another compassionate loving god spreading the joy around. Never mind if it’s mixed up with a little scalding hot sulfur dropped from above.
You are ABSOLUTELY correct and your reasoning is exactly the reason why this creates yet another inconsistency. It never occurs to people that if it's so easy for a creator to create out of nothing, then destroying that which it created means little. But Christians have bought into the whole belief that they inherited emotions from god which naturally means that god does things becase It is moved to do so through emotions. If god proceeds on emotion then god is unpredictable and all attempts by an imperfect, sinful creation, are prone to the whims of an emotional god on any given day. "Misconceptions about what Chrstians think". Do some research on this topic. That is his answer every time he is cornered on something in particular... No - this is my response every time a professed Atheist attempts to inform me that they have a clearer understanding of Christianity than I do. So do you think a Christian always has a "clearer understanding" of Christianity than an atheist or a non-Christian? Why? Not at all. However - when a non-christian professes to "know" how a christian thinks, and a Christian comes forth and says - this is not so, Then I rarely have a difficult time discerning who's likely to be right on the issue. I know a number of non-christians who have read more of the bible than half of those I know who profess to be Chrisians. Rarely, though - do I find them making accussations of "what" and "how" a christian believes. I think that the more you actually know about Christianity the least likely you are to become a Christian. Some Christians who have abandoned Christianity know more about it than people who are practicing Christians. In my experience I find this to be a rare exception as opposed to the norm. I can count on one hand the number of people - outside of the influence of a pseudo-Christian Cult - who have determined to read the bible for understanding, and abandon christianity with the more they read. I also know a number of people who's reading of the bible is for the absolute motivation of disproving it. Howevr - I usually find their logical reasoning to be of a fallious nature, and their total lack of understanding exegesis to be the only truth of their arguments. I'm not one of them. I know very little about Christianity and its history, but I know enough to stay out of it. JB I can't recall your ever assuming to know how a christian determines their belief in any matter. Your posts are a reflection of those things to which you have given great thought to, and study. A genuineness (is that a word) that I have a great amount of respect for. Even when you're being a bit "trollish". |
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If Christianity is a way of life, then name me one single thing that only a Christian does, that defines the way they live? Name a single action, thought, or feeling that you must be Christian to pursue? Name a single act that requires you to be Christian . . . . lol BTW this is soo much more fun then the Physics forums I troll. They openly profess that Jesus is lord. No Christian can deny this. |
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The word to key in my previous post was "Do", or "Does", and you acknowledged that. You answered, "The Will of God" The Hubris here is that any man can truly know the will of such a being. Now if you had simply said good works, I would have at least tipped my hat.
Christian good works include slavery, women subjugation, infanticide. then you can also look at attempts at conversion ... Good works come from any human being who feels the desire to help anyone else. The idea of the Islamic period of Ramadan is to get "in touch with allah" and think about those less fortunate than yourselves. |
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