Krimsa wrote:


Krimsa you are confusing god kind of morality with human morality. A good deal of the major industrialized countries in the world today, believe in the kind of human rights you are considering in your last post. God, however, is not human and I think a good deal of how god acts in the stories of the bible, might even bring one to the conclusion that god does not have emotions at all. It was man who assigned emotions to god, it just seemed right to them. After all if humans were to be in the image of god than god should have human emotions.

Yes! Emotions are the spice of human experience purposed to color our learning and make for more mind-made combinations of possible agenda-driven outcome... Sending us on wild goose chases. We get all excited and attach meaning to our discoveries, as if they somehow serve to prove our value. Does God need emotion? Doubt it very much.

The more we think we know... The more elated we become about finally being "right" (like the mad scientist). The moment our minds tell us we've got the precise answer... we've made the ultimate discovery.. well, that's the moment our very own hearts begin tripping up our theories... Ever reminding us (sometimes painfully) of how awkward and stupefying it can be as a human.

I can attest to the exhilaration of increasing my understanding of the physical workings of nature. Studied Science... my brain needs it's exercise. Yet, that knowledge means absolutely nothing when I lack connection to my heart.

Emotions can drive the mind to make ridiculous assumptions (about ourselves and about others). Many of these assumptions, we hold inside, afraid of letting them see the light of day to risk exposure of just how much we DON'T know.

Funny: The more I can admit my own awkward stupidity, the more I realize my freedom. The less the strangle-hold of emotion.

I just happened to think - what happened to spider, didnt' he start this thread?

I think, if I'm not mistaken, he's done this before. A really long, in depth thread and spider copps out. funny!

SplendidLife wrote:

Funny: The more I can admit my own awkward stupidity, the more I realize my freedom. The less the strangle-hold of emotion.

Well, you're lucky. You have a 2-year-old mentor as a guru.

Not all of us are so fortunate.

Eljay,
As I said I will never be a scientist with the ability to understand all that encompasses the theories of evolution. For example, I will never hold a degree in biology, microbiology, archeology, paleontology, physiology, biophysical genetic engineering or any of the other dozen, or so, fields that would grant me the knowledge that it takes to study, test, produce results, match and verify, research, study, and test some more. WILL YOU?

What I can do is look up words and terms such as:
Genetics, macroevolution, microevolution, natural selection, species, speciation, spontaneous mutation, the genetic basis of divergence.

I can get an understanding of homology and analogy, review the methodologies used as I look into the various theories, how they come about, what parts of those theories are fact and what parts remain under study. I can research the various types of dating techniques, I can review the archeological findings and how they were determined to fit into the evolutionary picture. I can look at the geographics tracing mitochondrial DNA.

I can look, I can read, I can research, and review and in the end I can say I am not a scientist, but what I have seen is enough for me to take, on faith, that those who are scientists are on target and evolution is a fact, one way or another evolution NOT creation is how all the living things on this planet have come to be what they are today.

OR - I can read one book, that tells me stories of gods and miracles in a time so distantly removed from the present that I can’t even fathom the life style or mentality of those people. And from that book I can create a fantasy of a god to suit my purpose and never have to look into what science means to us today, and what the scientists are researching on the frontiers of tomorrow. It would mean nothing to me, because it would have nothing to do with how I viewed life and death, oh no, in a view from such book I would be more likely to be concerned with pleasing the unknowable demands of an unreasonable god, so that I might be found worthy of an eternal existence after this life and all the tests I had to endure.

Believe what you will, study what you like, but do not consider yourself intellectually challenged, more learned, or any more aware or comprehending of this life, world or universe, simply because you’ve read one book full of stories of gods and demons, angels and devils, dreams and visions. In fact, depending on the version of the book you read, you may never even have to look up the definition of a single word, but you will have to make up the meanings of stories that are unclear, often contradictory and many times not written with a logical sense of time and space, person or place.

Learn from your own creative ability to interpret a story or learn the hard way. It’s up to you. I will not teach you by holding your hand and leading the way and pointing out this phrase and this sentance, oh no. I have learned the hard way and I’m still learning, you my friend are behind.

Well except Nazi's were grown men who were in fact soldiers of the Third Reich under direct command of Adolph Hitler. That is a very far reaching comparison. None of these villagers found in Sodom or any of the neighboring towns were allowed a trial as the captured Nazi’s were in Nuremburg. They were not given a chance to talk with counsel nor invoke their constitutional rights. They never once were able to explain their side of events and what might have been occurring. I think that is what I take issue with here. The fact that Yahweh dropped sulfur on men, women, children and infants guilty or not is a little bit troubling to me. I find your analogy to be quite insufficient.

just watched evolution of feathers and the "micro-raptor, a look at the evolution of feathers - the micro raptor actually had two 2 sets of wings on arms and legs a forerunner of the bird - very interesting - science channel/or history channel i look in a while cant remember - but look up micro-raptor.

I think he was disqualified for breaking his own rules.

Krimsa was beating up on him pretty badly intellectually. Not that she meant to, but she just coudln't help but make perfectly good points that were too sound to shake and and she did it all whilst adhering perfectly to Spider's rules in the OP of the original thread.

I must say Krimsa you are one hell of a good debater. Are you a lawyer?

Perhaps you should re-examine your issue then - for the people of Sodom & Gomorrah WERE given a trial. It was Abraham who spoke in their defense. At first Abraham asked the Lord to spare S&G if 50 rightious men were found. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 45. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 40. The Lord said he would spare them if there were 40. Then Abraham asked for 30. The Lord said he would spare them. Then he asked for 20. The Lord agreed. Finally Abraham asked that they be spared for the sake of 10 rightious men. TEN! Out of a population of two cities! For the sake of ten men - the Lord said he would spare them. (Genesis 18: 16-33)

I would say that is some haggling job by Abraham.

Then we find that all the men - from every part of the city - YOUNG and old - came with less than good intentions. The reason why these cities were destroyed was because of the outcries from the people of the surrounding area's whom were terrorized by the people of S&G. So much so - that not even 10 rightious men were to be found amoungst them. so apparently - since you seem outraged by this - have you considered what might have been a better solution? I'd be curious to hear it.

Eljay I was referring to your comparison of the peoples of S & G with Adolph Hitler and the Third Reich. I explained why I felt that was a poor analogy. Did you even read my comment? The men accused of these war crimes were under the direct command of Adolph Hitler. When Yahweh took it upon himself in the biblical tale to torch not only men, but innocent women, children and infants of these townships, I felt that to be wrong. I’m sorry if you don’t agree. That is my opinion and I will stick by it. As Redy mentioned, we need to look at these fables in the context and time period of which they were written. The same holds true of Leviticus. Yahweh would have been considered to be this "all knowing" omnipotent power so he would find it suitable to act as sitting judge, prosecutor and jury. I simply found that to be quite egregious. I would also be curious as to what your solution would be if you were in god's position here? I sincerely hope not to brutally burn to death innocent women, children and infants along with any adult males you felt were guilty of some undisclosed and debatable criminality?

This was also not the issue that was initially brought forward. It was the fact that Lot essentially offered up his two, virgin daughters to this mob that approached him at his home. The intention of some of these men, although I’m sure you will disagree, was to sexually assault the two male angel visitors that Lot has hidden in his dwelling. The daughters were to be considered in exchange for these men in order that they are satiated and move on their way, thus leaving the angels unharmed. I also find this to be quite despicable, although, as noted, women did not enjoy all of the same rights and privileges that men did in this time period. This was obviously a sacrifice Lot was willing to make.

Having expressed that - I do have a question for you. and I ask not in a manner to "trip you up" but to understand better from your response.
When you investigate these concepts - such as evolution, miracles, philosophy... Do you examine the issues from both sides? Are your studies of Evolution only from the persective of those who abandon the Intelligent design theory?

When you read commentaries on scripture - are they only ones that seek to refute the historical Christian understanding? I'm curious.

This was also not the issue that was initially brought forward. It was the fact that Lot essentially offered up his two, virgin daughters to this mob that approached him at his home. The intention of some of these men, although I’m sure you will disagree, was to sexually assault the two male angel visitors that Lot has hidden in his dwelling. The daughters were to be considered in exchange for these men in order that they are satiated and move on their way, thus leaving the angels unharmed. I also find this to be quite despicable, although, as noted, women did not enjoy all of the same rights and privileges that men did in this time period. This was obviously a sacrifice Lot was willing to make.

At the time of the writing of Genesis - corporal punishment was the law of the land. They went out of their way to create the most excruciating methods of killing people who were lawless. For that matter - killing people who were not of their tribe - and the reference is not to that of the Jewish population. Where's your outrage for the people who did not worship the God of the Jews sacrificing their "innocent" children to hte God's so that their grape harvest would yeild more wine for the orgies?

As to the Nazi's... don't be decieved. These were people who eagerly joined Hitlers military and who not only bought into what He was doing, but helped create it.
You make this "broad assumption" about the innocence of woman and children.

Lot offered up his daughters because - had he not, the entire township of S&G would have been wiped out by these two angels. You may not be aware of this, but Lot was. This was an attempt on his part to choose the lesser of two evils.
He chose correctly. Both He, and his family were spared.

Now - you were saying about how you would have handled this S&G issue differently? You can't have this both ways and demand your questions be responded to - and ignore the ones asked of you.

You speak as if you lavish the thought of murder and torture. It’s creepy.

Sometimes we hear what we want to hear. In written words, the ability to project our own exceptions onto other's statements can quickly fool us into believing ill of another. It's a part of the human condition, but I think you should try to be a bit more open minded and generous when you interpret another's post.

I got it Redy, thanks. Either way, it’s pretty horrible. I guess just another compassionate loving god spreading the joy around. Never mind if it’s mixed up with a little scalding hot sulfur dropped from above.

The reason Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, according to Christians, was because of their homosexuality. I know ridiculous.