i proclaimed one thing, that every human born has bias, as what can see good or bad that does not have bias as to what good is, and what bad is, and did you even read the interpretation of the text that i wrote, lol.......

you say nothing yourself of how this is worng?

you post your truth, and i post mine.....all is good, lol...

if the whole post was read, the very essence of meaning of the story is told of what i believe, and what you post is what you believe......

have i declared yours to be wrong, in fact all my words are an attempt to show how bias enter into any interpreation, and why none can be declared as truth, but rather hearer's of anything spoken must be the decider of what is more or less of truth, as all things spoken are true in some way, and only pereptions make one declare right and wrong.......

how can one not admit bias is natural human characteristic, and you spoke and said that the story of creation is not what you wish to believe, by seeing reason to believe......

how could one enter into this decision unless there was first bias, making for that decision, lol.....

this is no debate to me, of what is true or not true, but rather what is most truth, that lead to most peace and understanding.........

each hearer is the judge of what they wish to believe, and all truth adapted within mankind came thru this way.....

seems all thru history ones that declared with all assuredness that their own perception was the only one correct, these such beliefs coming from such proclaimed wise ones led to all disator and atrocitites of human tragic, lol........

all things to me are as truth, none is as wrong, but leading to more wisdom, as right cannot exist if no wrong, so what wisdom would not remove this patch over the eye that make all others as pirates, trying to steal ones gold of their truth, as each thing only evolve into more wisdom is the perception that lead to all peace within mankind, lol.......

if you do not wish to be right most, then why do you wish for me to prove how you are wrong, lol......

there is no proof of anything except the heart of each one that knows truth, and this is not laying on the table in front of all to inspect, lol................

what is truth except what each heart know is true?

how can the heart of others said to be provable?

words declared as "truth" by one cannot be any indicater of what be the whole truth........

only hidden hearts decide this, and what is most wisdom, so what else can be done except to proceed as one believes is wise........

science and text referred to as the bible be both as true for me, as all words spoken to me are as truth, and it is my challenge to come to wisdom and see how.........

you use your own principles as your guide, and i use mine, as you live and decide all things for you, and i for myself........is not this the way of all humans?

your whole interpetation is as all literal, leaving out any possibility of a metophorical meaning, and if a book declare itself to be true, would not the very index of how to read be imnportant?

if something declare itself as prophecy, then prophecy can pertain to a metophorical meaning, a literal meaning, a past meaning, a present meaning, or a future meaning....

this by the text itself give a possible five different interpretations possible for any sentence within, or any whole story, and these five views of perception would make for a possible ten different combinations of meanings......

how can one declare they view with no bias, as to say one does not have bias, would mean one would have to think bias was bad, and to think it was bad, show bias, lol......

I think you missed my point. You seem to feel I am biased and ONLY capable of viewing the bible in that light. You also seem very certain that my perception of god is that he is horrible and evil. For one thing, I do not believe in these stories in that they should be taken literally. I also do not feel that the story of S&G actually took place. My personal view is that these writings are fables told primarily to teach some kind of lesson. The lessons are not always clear and are often fraught with ambiguity. It’s also, as you say, completely open to interpretation. That means you read the bible and draw one conclusion; I read the bible and find something totally different than you. Fred Johnson down the street will read it and find yet another way to interpret the very same passages that you and I have read. I’m not sure anyone is arguing this. I certainly am not. This is in fact the very reason that this endless debate has been raging going on two weeks now. It’s simply that we do not all interpret these meanings in quite the same way because NO TWO humans are exactly the same. Even identical twins are not 100% identical and their environment has a substantial role in how they view the world.

I read your interpretation of events in S&G and okay, if you just simply want to say, that’s it and it’s my view, fine. I don’t have any problem with that. In fact I wish MORE Christians felt the same way you do. Often the fundamentalists can be a little pushy and feel that EVERYONE must not only be Christian but also interpret the scripture the same way as they do and also possess the exact same world view as they do. I choose not to acquiesce to such nonsense as is my right.

I also understand you are not trying to say that my interpretation is incorrect either. That’s fair enough I guess. I was under the impression you were somehow trying to "prove me wrong" or jump down my throat. If not, then wonderful. Thanks for your time.

I still find the tale of S&G to be quite horrible and especially the fact that Lot was found to be a righteous man. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around that one and Yahweh’s poor interpersonal skills in a situation like this. If someone else would like to tackle that concern, then be my guest.

What is comes down to for me is this. I look at god as perceived by the religious with an objective eye. He (I say he because they have named god a "he") is an immature, cruel and sadistic creature if their perception is correct. He created creatures that had to incestuously propagate, not cool. He then created a stygma for the female of his creation that she is suseptable to evil influences. Putting the male of the species in superior role. Then he created the world to punish those who are not guilty of anything except being his "pets" at his whim. Then he divided them all by making one religion righteous over others. Then he made it so that noone can really ever meet the requirements of his heaven. Etc....

When you look at these "faults" in god, you can see plainly that man created god, for these are all of man's faults.

Well this is what Christians believe.

It's all man's faults!

They just misunderstood the context of what that means.

"lot" be the total sum of any life can certainally be a possible......this would say ALL are righteouess, and is what my interpretation would be, lol.....

it seems there could not be any way bias is bad was the point, and that is is inherent and the guide for each, and that greater truth is adapted by all as a community, so what need to declare any one thing as "truth" lol......

i take the blame for such ignorant writing skills, lol......

Yeah, I have to disagree. Which is fine per our agreement. I still take issue with this. It’s not the only story I have a problem with also. Let's just make that abundantly clear right now. I hate to be a stickler for the details but some of this is just totally inconsistent. Although, I would imagine that is due to the fact that men can be inconsistent and presumably these stories were also transcribed.

krisma.......

i have never made a claim to be a christian in any thread or words spoken, by the way, so why do you assume, lol......

I never assumed. I to, have never once revealed the designation of my spirituality, yet it’s been guessed by many to be Pagan or Wicca. Imagine that. I guess me and you are in the same boat. I actually could not give a rat's butt due to the fact that it simply has no bearing on my ability to debate these issues or bring these discrepancies found in the bible to light for further discussion. Thats all any of us are doing.

you said that you wished more "christians" would do as i do, in your response, which would imply by inference that you percieved me as one, lol.......

i do not care what any call me, so that is of no significant point to me, except that any such thing is not true of myself, lol.......

krima, my beliefs encompass the beliefs of every religion, lol.....

certainally then only "nothing" proclaimed could be the only accurate description, lol......

you have great wsidom in adapting no one thing as all the truth, lol........

Well, you're going to hell now boy.

If you get there before winter see if you can get them to pipe some heat up to my cottage so I don't need to cut so much firewood.

Maybe not David!!!

Without knowing the whole context, if we take only the words in the sentence above, it is a gem!

The writer simply says that he/she wished more christians (the annoying proselytizing ones) were more like you, while the other non-judgmental ones are just fine the way they are.

They are already a little/lot like you!!! (whitout knowing exactly how it is that you are!)

It is the spirit thing within us, whom we share or resist!!!

But the spirit none the less.

My view anyhow!


Amitiés to you David!

AWW - and here i thought you were a "Pagiccan"

oh well, fooled once again -

I still never referred to YOU specifically as a Christian. I said that I wished more fundamentalists would not insist that everyone view the scripture and world exactly as they do. Whatever your designation is really irrelevant. I’m sure, just by your verbiage alone; many might jump to that conclusion. Just as many have assumed I am Pagan based on some of the issues I have brought forth as it relates to the callous treatment of women in the bible.

Anyway, I’m glad you do not care as I really don’t either. People are going to interpret me as they see fit. I have no control over that. Not to mention that it is within the confines of an electronic messaging relay system.

the best one all day, lol......

you are indeed precicely correct, lol.....thank you for showing me, as indeed, i went back and read and this is true!

thanks for being such a helpful guide dear friend, as many things from wisdom i read from you, lol......