100% FREE ONLINE DATING
sponsored links
Previous
| Topic: Throw down - part 2 | |
|---|---|
|
|
|
Perhaps this is rediculous because it isn't true. Any Christiam who's read the bible knows why S&G were destroyed. It's like claiming all Christians say the fruit Eve picked from the tree was an apple - or that there were three wise men. Misconceptions about what Christians think. Perhaps you should do some research on that They do? And they all agree, even feral? Exactly what do you all agree on, Eljay? Oh, a couple more questions. Do you need the assistance of the holy spirit to interpret? I know some poeple say they do. What about understanding the times of and customs of the people? Do you get all that from the bible? I didn't I had to do a lot more research. In fact I discovered a lot about the culture and the customes when I found that the original (oldest known) words of that scripture have been misinterpreted and when interpreted correctly they actually make sense and fit with the customs and culture of the people. Alas, we would never know that unles we did a lot of research. But perhaps this is the kind of thing the holy spirit whispers into peoples ears as they read - What do you think about that? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes. He is a little quick to judge. Another issue I have with this particular story. It appears to be a little unclear what these folks were doing wrong exactly? No where in the story, that I could find anyway, granted the language is tough, did it say well these villagers were committing these specific crimes. We can even put all the slaughtered innocent women, babies and kids aside for the moment if people feel that is becoming too inflammatory. However, it is what it is.
Redy it seems unlikely to me that Lot would have offered his daughters to the mob if he knew for certain they were ALL homosexual. Perhaps some of them were and those were the ones requesting to "know the angels". It would have been an exercise in futility for Lot to give his daughters to gay men. They probably would not have been interested. Not to mention that the implication in the actual story is that ALL of Sodom showed up at Lot's doorstep. The percentage of adult males in a given population is generally around 5%. Not 100%. It also stands to reason that if Lot had lived amongst these people for a span of several years, he would have been well aware if the entire town was comprised of homosexual males. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The text of Genesis 19 implies that God approved of Lot's behavior, even though he made an offer of his virgin daughters to be raped. This approval would have been extended to Lot's family as well. But God apparently had a fierce anger directed at the other inhabitants of the town. He destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone (sulfur) dumped from above. According to the story, he killed all of the men and women of Sodom, as well as all the innocent children, infants, newborns, etc. who lived in the city. Once again, god at his finest. Yes - very similar to the judgements passed on the Nazi's after WW2. Is it your opinion that the trials of Nuremborg were a travesty to those poor Nazi's? What should they have done with them - sent them home with a slap on the wrist? Woud that have been "man at his finest"? Okay - so the analogy is extreme. But the point is - that there is a back history here. Are you familiar with it? Well except Nazi's were grown men who were in fact soldiers of the Third Reich under direct command of Adolph Hitler. That is a very far reaching comparison. None of these villagers found in Sodom or any of the neighboring towns were allowed a trial as the captured Nazi’s were in Nuremburg. They were not given a chance to talk with counsel nor invoke their constitutional rights. They never once were able to explain their side of events and what might have been occurring. I think that is what I take issue with here. The fact that Yahweh dropped sulfur on men, women, children and infants guilty or not is a little bit troubling to me. I find your analogy to be quite insufficient. Perhaps you should re-examine your issue then - for the people of Sodom & Gomorrah WERE given a trial. It was Abraham who spoke in their defense. At first Abraham asked the Lord to spare S&G if 50 rightious men were found. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 45. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 40. The Lord said he would spare them if there were 40. Then Abraham asked for 30. The Lord said he would spare them. Then he asked for 20. The Lord agreed. Finally Abraham asked that they be spared for the sake of 10 rightious men. TEN! Out of a population of two cities! For the sake of ten men - the Lord said he would spare them. (Genesis 18: 16-33) I would say that is some haggling job by Abraham. Then we find that all the men - from every part of the city - YOUNG and old - came with less than good intentions. The reason why these cities were destroyed was because of the outcries from the people of the surrounding area's whom were terrorized by the people of S&G. So much so - that not even 10 rightious men were to be found amoungst them. so apparently - since you seem outraged by this - have you considered what might have been a better solution? I'd be curious to hear it. Eljay I was referring to your comparison of the peoples of S & G with Adolph Hitler and the Third Reich. I explained why I felt that was a poor analogy. Did you even read my comment? The men accused of these war crimes were under the direct command of Adolph Hitler. When Yahweh took it upon himself in the biblical tale to torch not only men, but innocent women, children and infants of these townships, I felt that to be wrong. I’m sorry if you don’t agree. That is my opinion and I will stick by it. As Redy mentioned, we need to look at these fables in the context and time period of which they were written. The same holds true of Leviticus. Yahweh would have been considered to be this "all knowing" omnipotent power so he would find it suitable to act as sitting judge, prosecutor and jury. I simply found that to be quite egregious. I would also be curious as to what your solution would be if you were in god's position here? I sincerely hope not to brutally burn to death innocent women, children and infants along with any adult males you felt were guilty of some undisclosed and debatable criminality? This was also not the issue that was initially brought forward. It was the fact that Lot essentially offered up his two, virgin daughters to this mob that approached him at his home. The intention of some of these men, although I’m sure you will disagree, was to sexually assault the two male angel visitors that Lot has hidden in his dwelling. The daughters were to be considered in exchange for these men in order that they are satiated and move on their way, thus leaving the angels unharmed. I also find this to be quite despicable, although, as noted, women did not enjoy all of the same rights and privileges that men did in this time period. This was obviously a sacrifice Lot was willing to make. At the time of the writing of Genesis - corporal punishment was the law of the land. They went out of their way to create the most excruciating methods of killing people who were lawless. For that matter - killing people who were not of their tribe - and the reference is not to that of the Jewish population. Where's your outrage for the people who did not worship the God of the Jews sacrificing their "innocent" children to hte God's so that their grape harvest would yeild more wine for the orgies? As to the Nazi's... don't be decieved. These were people who eagerly joined Hitlers military and who not only bought into what He was doing, but helped create it. You make this "broad assumption" about the innocence of woman and children. Lot offered up his daughters because - had he not, the entire township of S&G would have been wiped out by these two angels. You may not be aware of this, but Lot was. This was an attempt on his part to choose the lesser of two evils. He chose correctly. Both He, and his family were spared. Now - you were saying about how you would have handled this S&G issue differently? You can't have this both ways and demand your questions be responded to - and ignore the ones asked of you. So you are asking me to condone the brutal torture and murder of ALL of the inhabitants of these towns simply because Yahweh decided that these people were evil or had done something wrong? Sorry. That may be fine with you however I take great issue with it. You speak as if you lavish the thought of murder and torture. It’s creepy. If something is clearly heinous and out of control, it is within your power to stand up and claim it is wrong instead of blindly going along with it because this false mysterious, omnipotent lunatic claims it is. Show some backbone for goodness sake. You still do not understand what I am attempting to convey to you about Hitler and the Third Reich. I am explaining that it is an inaccurate comparison you are making because adult male high ranking soldiers subjected to Israeli law and criminal proceedings were privy to counsel and convicted of their crimes in a court of law. The infants, women and children burned alive by having Yahweh pour sulfur on them from the sky, eh, not so much. Surely you can recognize the difference in the two scenarios? I know in your mind, even the babies and children deserved this fate. I once again, refuse to be swept up into your net of hate and will call you on it each and every time. As far as Lot is concerned and him offering his two virgin daughters to this mob so that he could claim his own safety, absolutely despicable. There is no minimizing this one, nor rationalizing it away. I have answered every question put to me thus far. So now I ask yet again that you answer only one. If you were in the place of Yahweh, would you have ordered the brutal murder of every last man, woman, child and infant? As to the Nazi annalogy - I premised it was extreme so why are you taking what I said literally as a one to one correlation? I didn't say Lot did it for his own safety - YOU DID. Reread my post. As to "God murdering S&G", he only killed those who refused to leave. They laughed at Lot and called him a fool. Anyone in S&G could have left safetly with Lot. They perished because of their lust and pride. God said he would destroy S&G because of the evil desires of the people there. Who takes the blame for their mockery and refusing to leave? This is the third time I'm asking this question: What would you have had God do about the issues of S&G. I don't see a response to that question. If you don't have an answer - just say so. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Krimsa I got it Redy, thanks. Either way, it’s pretty horrible. I guess just another compassionate loving god spreading the joy around. Never mind if it’s mixed up with a little scalding hot sulfur dropped from above. You are ABSOLUTELY correct and your reasoning is exactly the reason why this creates yet another inconsistency. It never occurs to people that if it's so easy for a creator to create out of nothing, then destroying that which it created means little. But Christians have bought into the whole belief that they inherited emotions from god which naturally means that god does things becase It is moved to do so through emotions. If god proceeds on emotion then god is unpredictable and all attempts by an imperfect, sinful creation, are prone to the whims of an emotional god on any given day. "Misconceptions about what Chrstians think". Do some research on this topic. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps this is rediculous because it isn't true. Any Christiam who's read the bible knows why S&G were destroyed. It's like claiming all Christians say the fruit Eve picked from the tree was an apple - or that there were three wise men. Misconceptions about what Christians think. Perhaps you should do some research on that They do? And they all agree, even feral? Exactly what do you all agree on, Eljay? Oh, a couple more questions. If Feral - or any Christian says the reason why S&G was destroyed was due to the Homosexuality there - thy are interjecting their subjective perception into the scripture. You know as well as I do it does not state that in the passages. Perhaps Feral will chime in on this - because I think you are misrepresenting her. Do you need the assistance of the holy spirit to interpret? I know some poeple say they do. As to how you have presented the question - the answer is no. What about understanding the times of and customs of the people? Do you get all that from the bible? I didn't I had to do a lot more research. In fact I discovered a lot about the culture and the customes when I found that the original (oldest known) words of that scripture have been misinterpreted and when interpreted correctly they actually make sense and fit with the customs and culture of the people. Alas, we would never know that unless we did a lot of research. But perhaps this is the kind of thing the holy spirit whispers into peoples ears as they read - What do you think about that? Actually - most of the traditions and customs of the times have to be researched outside of the scriptures, especially the NT, because at the time of it's writting, it was understood that people knew the customs. It was not written for an audience that would not be aware of the norms of society back then. That would have seemed strange if it had. Only Luke, and sometimes Paul, explained the customs, because they were adressing a Gentile audience, and they would have needed to provide the history of some of the concepts they were adressing. You see - Christians know this. Odd that you didn't know that this is the way christians think. To hammer home a point. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Krimsa
on
Wed 08/13/08 12:08 PM
|
|
The text of Genesis 19 implies that God approved of Lot's behavior, even though he made an offer of his virgin daughters to be raped. This approval would have been extended to Lot's family as well. But God apparently had a fierce anger directed at the other inhabitants of the town. He destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone (sulfur) dumped from above. According to the story, he killed all of the men and women of Sodom, as well as all the innocent children, infants, newborns, etc. who lived in the city. Once again, god at his finest. Yes - very similar to the judgements passed on the Nazi's after WW2. Is it your opinion that the trials of Nuremborg were a travesty to those poor Nazi's? What should they have done with them - sent them home with a slap on the wrist? Woud that have been "man at his finest"? Okay - so the analogy is extreme. But the point is - that there is a back history here. Are you familiar with it? Well except Nazi's were grown men who were in fact soldiers of the Third Reich under direct command of Adolph Hitler. That is a very far reaching comparison. None of these villagers found in Sodom or any of the neighboring towns were allowed a trial as the captured Nazi’s were in Nuremburg. They were not given a chance to talk with counsel nor invoke their constitutional rights. They never once were able to explain their side of events and what might have been occurring. I think that is what I take issue with here. The fact that Yahweh dropped sulfur on men, women, children and infants guilty or not is a little bit troubling to me. I find your analogy to be quite insufficient. Perhaps you should re-examine your issue then - for the people of Sodom & Gomorrah WERE given a trial. It was Abraham who spoke in their defense. At first Abraham asked the Lord to spare S&G if 50 rightious men were found. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 45. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 40. The Lord said he would spare them if there were 40. Then Abraham asked for 30. The Lord said he would spare them. Then he asked for 20. The Lord agreed. Finally Abraham asked that they be spared for the sake of 10 rightious men. TEN! Out of a population of two cities! For the sake of ten men - the Lord said he would spare them. (Genesis 18: 16-33) I would say that is some haggling job by Abraham. Then we find that all the men - from every part of the city - YOUNG and old - came with less than good intentions. The reason why these cities were destroyed was because of the outcries from the people of the surrounding area's whom were terrorized by the people of S&G. So much so - that not even 10 rightious men were to be found amoungst them. so apparently - since you seem outraged by this - have you considered what might have been a better solution? I'd be curious to hear it. Eljay I was referring to your comparison of the peoples of S & G with Adolph Hitler and the Third Reich. I explained why I felt that was a poor analogy. Did you even read my comment? The men accused of these war crimes were under the direct command of Adolph Hitler. When Yahweh took it upon himself in the biblical tale to torch not only men, but innocent women, children and infants of these townships, I felt that to be wrong. I’m sorry if you don’t agree. That is my opinion and I will stick by it. As Redy mentioned, we need to look at these fables in the context and time period of which they were written. The same holds true of Leviticus. Yahweh would have been considered to be this "all knowing" omnipotent power so he would find it suitable to act as sitting judge, prosecutor and jury. I simply found that to be quite egregious. I would also be curious as to what your solution would be if you were in god's position here? I sincerely hope not to brutally burn to death innocent women, children and infants along with any adult males you felt were guilty of some undisclosed and debatable criminality? This was also not the issue that was initially brought forward. It was the fact that Lot essentially offered up his two, virgin daughters to this mob that approached him at his home. The intention of some of these men, although I’m sure you will disagree, was to sexually assault the two male angel visitors that Lot has hidden in his dwelling. The daughters were to be considered in exchange for these men in order that they are satiated and move on their way, thus leaving the angels unharmed. I also find this to be quite despicable, although, as noted, women did not enjoy all of the same rights and privileges that men did in this time period. This was obviously a sacrifice Lot was willing to make. At the time of the writing of Genesis - corporal punishment was the law of the land. They went out of their way to create the most excruciating methods of killing people who were lawless. For that matter - killing people who were not of their tribe - and the reference is not to that of the Jewish population. Where's your outrage for the people who did not worship the God of the Jews sacrificing their "innocent" children to hte God's so that their grape harvest would yeild more wine for the orgies? As to the Nazi's... don't be decieved. These were people who eagerly joined Hitlers military and who not only bought into what He was doing, but helped create it. You make this "broad assumption" about the innocence of woman and children. Lot offered up his daughters because - had he not, the entire township of S&G would have been wiped out by these two angels. You may not be aware of this, but Lot was. This was an attempt on his part to choose the lesser of two evils. He chose correctly. Both He, and his family were spared. Now - you were saying about how you would have handled this S&G issue differently? You can't have this both ways and demand your questions be responded to - and ignore the ones asked of you. So you are asking me to condone the brutal torture and murder of ALL of the inhabitants of these towns simply because Yahweh decided that these people were evil or had done something wrong? Sorry. That may be fine with you however I take great issue with it. You speak as if you lavish the thought of murder and torture. It’s creepy. If something is clearly heinous and out of control, it is within your power to stand up and claim it is wrong instead of blindly going along with it because this false mysterious, omnipotent lunatic claims it is. Show some backbone for goodness sake. You still do not understand what I am attempting to convey to you about Hitler and the Third Reich. I am explaining that it is an inaccurate comparison you are making because adult male high ranking soldiers subjected to Israeli law and criminal proceedings were privy to counsel and convicted of their crimes in a court of law. The infants, women and children burned alive by having Yahweh pour sulfur on them from the sky, eh, not so much. Surely you can recognize the difference in the two scenarios? I know in your mind, even the babies and children deserved this fate. I once again, refuse to be swept up into your net of hate and will call you on it each and every time. As far as Lot is concerned and him offering his two virgin daughters to this mob so that he could claim his own safety, absolutely despicable. There is no minimizing this one, nor rationalizing it away. I have answered every question put to me thus far. So now I ask yet again that you answer only one. If you were in the place of Yahweh, would you have ordered the brutal murder of every last man, woman, child and infant? As to the Nazi annalogy - I premised it was extreme so why are you taking what I said literally as a one to one correlation? I didn't say Lot did it for his own safety - YOU DID. Reread my post. As to "God murdering S&G", he only killed those who refused to leave. They laughed at Lot and called him a fool. Anyone in S&G could have left safetly with Lot. They perished because of their lust and pride. God said he would destroy S&G because of the evil desires of the people there. Who takes the blame for their mockery and refusing to leave? This is the third time I'm asking this question: What would you have had God do about the issues of S&G. I don't see a response to that question. If you don't have an answer - just say so. Yes and I have explained to you twice now just why your comparison of S&G and the Third Reich is inaccurate. Not simply "extreme" by your own admition, but completely inadaptable. If you don’t understand the difference at this point, I just do not know what can be done about that.  I have also explained my position as it relates to the act of Lot offering his virgin daughters to this mob. I find it to be absolutely disgusting and deplorable. I will not simply go along with it like a mindless automaton and say well god says its okay and it did end up sparing his family so the end justifies the means. What if the mob HAD in fact taken him up in his offer? What then Eljay? Lot had no way of knowing that they would not. If they were all homosexual males, why bother? They perished because of their "lust and pride". What the? So presumably because these men were having consensual sex with other males, they deserved to all burn to death? That’s awful. So now you are trying to say well, it was their own fault because they had the option to leave and they chose not to. Why would god bother to destroy these towns unless he wanted to kill as many of the "sodomites" as he possibly could? Huh? He was pissed off and I wouldn’t attempt to downplay it like that. You are far better off sticking to your original premise that yes, god was angry and he was taking a few of these people out of the picture. I HAVE answered every single question posed. You refuse to answer if you would have also murdered every last man, woman, child and infant within the limits of S&G. I believe I deserve the courtesy of an answer simply based on what I have brought to the table thus far. Remember I have posed these problems within the bible. The least you can do is attempt to answer the questions brought forth or in this case, refute my claim that Yahweh was out of control here and excessive in delivering this punishment. I sure am glad our modern legal system does not operate in this fashion. We would be in trouble. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Krimsa I got it Redy, thanks. Either way, it’s pretty horrible. I guess just another compassionate loving god spreading the joy around. Never mind if it’s mixed up with a little scalding hot sulfur dropped from above. You are ABSOLUTELY correct and your reasoning is exactly the reason why this creates yet another inconsistency. It never occurs to people that if it's so easy for a creator to create out of nothing, then destroying that which it created means little. But Christians have bought into the whole belief that they inherited emotions from god which naturally means that god does things becase It is moved to do so through emotions. If god proceeds on emotion then god is unpredictable and all attempts by an imperfect, sinful creation, are prone to the whims of an emotional god on any given day. "Misconceptions about what Chrstians think". Do some research on this topic. That is his answer every time he is cornered on something in particular... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The text of Genesis 19 implies that God approved of Lot's behavior, even though he made an offer of his virgin daughters to be raped. This approval would have been extended to Lot's family as well. But God apparently had a fierce anger directed at the other inhabitants of the town. He destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone (sulfur) dumped from above. According to the story, he killed all of the men and women of Sodom, as well as all the innocent children, infants, newborns, etc. who lived in the city. Once again, god at his finest. Yes - very similar to the judgements passed on the Nazi's after WW2. Is it your opinion that the trials of Nuremborg were a travesty to those poor Nazi's? What should they have done with them - sent them home with a slap on the wrist? Woud that have been "man at his finest"? Okay - so the analogy is extreme. But the point is - that there is a back history here. Are you familiar with it? Well except Nazi's were grown men who were in fact soldiers of the Third Reich under direct command of Adolph Hitler. That is a very far reaching comparison. None of these villagers found in Sodom or any of the neighboring towns were allowed a trial as the captured Nazi’s were in Nuremburg. They were not given a chance to talk with counsel nor invoke their constitutional rights. They never once were able to explain their side of events and what might have been occurring. I think that is what I take issue with here. The fact that Yahweh dropped sulfur on men, women, children and infants guilty or not is a little bit troubling to me. I find your analogy to be quite insufficient. Perhaps you should re-examine your issue then - for the people of Sodom & Gomorrah WERE given a trial. It was Abraham who spoke in their defense. At first Abraham asked the Lord to spare S&G if 50 rightious men were found. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 45. The Lord agreed. Then he asked for 40. The Lord said he would spare them if there were 40. Then Abraham asked for 30. The Lord said he would spare them. Then he asked for 20. The Lord agreed. Finally Abraham asked that they be spared for the sake of 10 rightious men. TEN! Out of a population of two cities! For the sake of ten men - the Lord said he would spare them. (Genesis 18: 16-33) I would say that is some haggling job by Abraham. Then we find that all the men - from every part of the city - YOUNG and old - came with less than good intentions. The reason why these cities were destroyed was because of the outcries from the people of the surrounding area's whom were terrorized by the people of S&G. So much so - that not even 10 rightious men were to be found amoungst them. so apparently - since you seem outraged by this - have you considered what might have been a better solution? I'd be curious to hear it. Eljay I was referring to your comparison of the peoples of S & G with Adolph Hitler and the Third Reich. I explained why I felt that was a poor analogy. Did you even read my comment? The men accused of these war crimes were under the direct command of Adolph Hitler. When Yahweh took it upon himself in the biblical tale to torch not only men, but innocent women, children and infants of these townships, I felt that to be wrong. I’m sorry if you don’t agree. That is my opinion and I will stick by it. As Redy mentioned, we need to look at these fables in the context and time period of which they were written. The same holds true of Leviticus. Yahweh would have been considered to be this "all knowing" omnipotent power so he would find it suitable to act as sitting judge, prosecutor and jury. I simply found that to be quite egregious. I would also be curious as to what your solution would be if you were in god's position here? I sincerely hope not to brutally burn to death innocent women, children and infants along with any adult males you felt were guilty of some undisclosed and debatable criminality? This was also not the issue that was initially brought forward. It was the fact that Lot essentially offered up his two, virgin daughters to this mob that approached him at his home. The intention of some of these men, although I’m sure you will disagree, was to sexually assault the two male angel visitors that Lot has hidden in his dwelling. The daughters were to be considered in exchange for these men in order that they are satiated and move on their way, thus leaving the angels unharmed. I also find this to be quite despicable, although, as noted, women did not enjoy all of the same rights and privileges that men did in this time period. This was obviously a sacrifice Lot was willing to make. At the time of the writing of Genesis - corporal punishment was the law of the land. They went out of their way to create the most excruciating methods of killing people who were lawless. For that matter - killing people who were not of their tribe - and the reference is not to that of the Jewish population. Where's your outrage for the people who did not worship the God of the Jews sacrificing their "innocent" children to hte God's so that their grape harvest would yeild more wine for the orgies? As to the Nazi's... don't be decieved. These were people who eagerly joined Hitlers military and who not only bought into what He was doing, but helped create it. You make this "broad assumption" about the innocence of woman and children. Lot offered up his daughters because - had he not, the entire township of S&G would have been wiped out by these two angels. You may not be aware of this, but Lot was. This was an attempt on his part to choose the lesser of two evils. He chose correctly. Both He, and his family were spared. Now - you were saying about how you would have handled this S&G issue differently? You can't have this both ways and demand your questions be responded to - and ignore the ones asked of you. So you are asking me to condone the brutal torture and murder of ALL of the inhabitants of these towns simply because Yahweh decided that these people were evil or had done something wrong? Sorry. That may be fine with you however I take great issue with it. You speak as if you lavish the thought of murder and torture. It’s creepy. If something is clearly heinous and out of control, it is within your power to stand up and claim it is wrong instead of blindly going along with it because this false mysterious, omnipotent lunatic claims it is. Show some backbone for goodness sake. You still do not understand what I am attempting to convey to you about Hitler and the Third Reich. I am explaining that it is an inaccurate comparison you are making because adult male high ranking soldiers subjected to Israeli law and criminal proceedings were privy to counsel and convicted of their crimes in a court of law. The infants, women and children burned alive by having Yahweh pour sulfur on them from the sky, eh, not so much. Surely you can recognize the difference in the two scenarios? I know in your mind, even the babies and children deserved this fate. I once again, refuse to be swept up into your net of hate and will call you on it each and every time. As far as Lot is concerned and him offering his two virgin daughters to this mob so that he could claim his own safety, absolutely despicable. There is no minimizing this one, nor rationalizing it away. I have answered every question put to me thus far. So now I ask yet again that you answer only one. If you were in the place of Yahweh, would you have ordered the brutal murder of every last man, woman, child and infant? As to the Nazi annalogy - I premised it was extreme so why are you taking what I said literally as a one to one correlation? I didn't say Lot did it for his own safety - YOU DID. Reread my post. As to "God murdering S&G", he only killed those who refused to leave. They laughed at Lot and called him a fool. Anyone in S&G could have left safetly with Lot. They perished because of their lust and pride. God said he would destroy S&G because of the evil desires of the people there. Who takes the blame for their mockery and refusing to leave? This is the third time I'm asking this question: What would you have had God do about the issues of S&G. I don't see a response to that question. If you don't have an answer - just say so. I would have him suck it up, admit he'd made a mistake in creating man and have wiped man off the face of the earth!! That way we would not have come into existance, nor this forum, and no one would be wondering about anything. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
wouldee
on
Wed 08/13/08 05:45 PM
|
|
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/roots(n)-1.htm
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Wed 08/13/08 06:13 PM
|
|
Well if people in S & G were going around raping angels and children and generally totally demented like that I think I would have dropped the big one on them all including Lot who offered his daughters to be ganged raped.
Kill 'em all I say.  No more mrs. nice anymore. I'm going to take a hard line against child molesters, angel rapists, and flesh peddlers. Any innocents in the city will be beamed up to my ship. That's what I would do if I was a God meddling in the affairs of humans.   JB |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
tribo
on
Wed 08/13/08 06:21 PM
|
|
Well if people in S & G were going around raping angels and children and generally totally demented like that I think I would have dropped the big one on them all including Lot who offered his daughters to be ganged raped. Kill 'em all I say. No more mrs. nice anymore. I'm going to take a hard line against child molesters, angel rapists, and flesh peddlers. Any innocents in the city will be beamed up to my ship. That's what I would do if I was a God meddling in the affairs of humans. JB No more,---- Mrs. nice god, No more,---- Mrs. in-be-twe---en, No more----- Mrs. nice god, No more,-- playin neat and cl-e-a-eeen   |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 08/14/08 04:48 AM
|
|
Except one problem with just wiping out EVERYONE like Yahweh in fact took it upon himself to do in the story. It is never made 100% crystal why these men, women, babies and children of S&G were "unrighteous". We have to assume they were doing something that god did not approve of. There are many theories as to what these crime(s) were exactly. It’s highly debatable. That alone is not a stable foundation in which to establish law and order amongst humankind. Perhaps this is why today, we have a comprehensive legal system established in which defendants (notice I say defendants and not unrighteous) are permitted to stand trial and be judged by a jury of their fellow citizens and peers. We punish but not without due process and EVERYONE is made aware of all counts that a suspect is facing.
I do have to say that the fact that Lot offered up his daughters to that mob to brutally assault (chances are they would have not lived through that) is quite disturbing. How can we know that the men would have not taken Lot up on his offer? He had no way of knowing that. If they were simply coming to rape someone, it may not have mattered if the victims were male or female. Yet Yahweh still considered Lot a righteous man and worthy enough to be spared from the destruction of the towns. That to me speaks volumes. It clearly asserts that this infraction could be overlooked simply because the girls had very little value. This is not the only time in the bible we witness such cruelty and abuse of women either. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well if people in S & G were going around raping angels and children and generally totally demented like that I think I would have dropped the big one on them all including Lot who offered his daughters to be ganged raped. Kill 'em all I say. No more mrs. nice anymore. I'm going to take a hard line against child molesters, angel rapists, and flesh peddlers. Any innocents in the city will be beamed up to my ship. That's what I would do if I was a God meddling in the affairs of humans. JB When you put it that way it vividly displays precisely how utterly stupid the biblical stories are. If God is so all-powerful what's he doing having some guy build a wooden boat to save the animal kingdom while he floods the planet to kill sinners. This story was clearly written by people who had no clue about the vastness of universe at large. They were entirely thinking that the earth is all that exists. Period. There just aren't any words for how utterly absurd these stories truly are. We can clearly see today that those ancient authors had no clue what the universe was like. That only thing that's more absurd that the stories themselves is the fact that so many modern day people still fall for them. Clearly if there is a God it didn't do the things the Bible claims. Those stories are just far too ignorant (meaning that they were written with total lack of knowledge of the real universe). They probably originally told these stories to their children and then realized that some of the adults were falling for them too, and so they turned it into a religion. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well people are basically gullible in many respects. That’s why that George Carlin comment is so insightful in my opinion. He was raised devout Catholic as a boy.
"About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around."-George Carlin |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
the interpretations that lot sent out two daughters to be raped in a literal sense is pure conjecture, and that "god" destroyed all man kind for evilness is deciding by interpretations, peering thru good and evil when reading, as to meaning, as in text it was also described "god" was not willing any should perish, so what god now is willing to perish all, lol......
it was said no true meanning could be known while looking the tree of good and evil, so no words can be heard looking thru good and evil as a guide for interpretation..... to man the word "rape" is evil, so when hearing the word, the mind conjure up pictures of what it mean, but no word in text is spoken from a "evil" perspective..... the word "destroy human flesh" is as evil words, or a bad thing by the human perception, so no complete meaning can be seen to tie all other words along with it to show complete meaning... indeed, the text must prove itself by it's own words, and if one word contradict another, then any that claim to be a speaker of it, have only been made to believe such theories, that do not hold true to the very simplest of principles also spoken within, and would declare interpretations as only perceptions by a mind that think of all things as good and evil, and these perceptions spoken as truth to all have made for many of the very evils as described within text and all history books, that tell of great atrocities perpetrated upon mankind....... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 08/14/08 07:37 AM
|
|
the interpretations that lot sent out two daughters to be raped in a literal sense is pure conjecture, and that "god" destroyed all man kind for evilness is deciding by interpretations, peering thru good and evil when reading, as to meaning, as in text it was also described "god" was not willing any should perish, so what god now is willing to perish all, lol...... it was said no true meanning could be known while looking the tree of good and evil, so no words can be heard looking thru good and evil as a guide for interpretation..... to man the word "rape" is evil, so when hearing the word, the mind conjure up pictures of what it mean, but no word in text is spoken from a "evil" perspective..... the word "destroy human flesh" is as evil words, or a bad thing by the human perception, so no complete meaning can be seen to tie all other words along with it to show complete meaning... indeed, the text must prove itself by it's own words, and if one word contradict another, then any that claim to be a speaker of it, have only been made to believe such theories, that do not hold true to the very simplest of principles also spoken within, and would declare interpretations as only perceptions by a mind that think of all things as good and evil, and these perceptions spoken as truth to all have made for many of the very evils as described within text and all history books, that tell of great atrocities perpetrated upon mankind....... I’m not really sure if you made a point there but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Just kidding. Okay then, put your money where your mouth is since I’m just "misinterpreting" once again.  We went through this same thing with Leviticus. It can't possibly mean what it says so it’s all a matter of conjecture. Alright then. "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly." Okay I am interpreting that to mean that these men (and presumably a good portion of the populace of Sodom) have come around to Lot's house and they mean business. They are looking for these two male angels that Lot has staying as guests in his home. So Lot is understandably a little nervous about what is taking place here so in his panic he attempts to make a deal with the men speaking for the mob. "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof." Do you see where I am going with this? It’s as plain as day. Okay we can say well, in these times women did not have the same value as men except their virginity was highly prized as it related to their marital significance and dowries. We can open up that can of worms if you want? Tell me where I am misinterpreting? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I dont have time to read through every post this morning (running late) so if this is already covered then by all means ignore me.
There is no Intelligent design theory . . . I theory MUST explain somthing. Intelligent design just points at stuff and says thats soooo complicated . . . . MUST be god. Thats NOT a theory of anything. So when you mention have you looked at both sides, I await another side to look at. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
smart.
good idea. i wish more would. I agree. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
the interpretations that lot sent out two daughters to be raped in a literal sense is pure conjecture, and that "god" destroyed all man kind for evilness is deciding by interpretations, peering thru good and evil when reading, as to meaning, as in text it was also described "god" was not willing any should perish, so what god now is willing to perish all, lol...... it was said no true meanning could be known while looking the tree of good and evil, so no words can be heard looking thru good and evil as a guide for interpretation..... to man the word "rape" is evil, so when hearing the word, the mind conjure up pictures of what it mean, but no word in text is spoken from a "evil" perspective..... the word "destroy human flesh" is as evil words, or a bad thing by the human perception, so no complete meaning can be seen to tie all other words along with it to show complete meaning... indeed, the text must prove itself by it's own words, and if one word contradict another, then any that claim to be a speaker of it, have only been made to believe such theories, that do not hold true to the very simplest of principles also spoken within, and would declare interpretations as only perceptions by a mind that think of all things as good and evil, and these perceptions spoken as truth to all have made for many of the very evils as described within text and all history books, that tell of great atrocities perpetrated upon mankind....... I’m not really sure if you made a point there but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Just kidding. Okay then, put your money where your mouth is since I’m just "misinterpreting" once again. We went through this same thing with Leviticus. It can't possibly mean what it says so it’s all a matter of conjecture. Alright then. "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly." Okay I am interpreting that to mean that these men (and presumably a good portion of the populace of Sodom) have come around to Lot's house and they mean business. They are looking for these two male angels that Lot has staying as guests in his home. So Lot is understandably a little nervous about what is taking place here so in his panic he attempts to make a deal with the men speaking for the mob. "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof." Do you see where I am going with this? It’s as plain as day. Okay we can say well, in these times women did not have the same value as men except their virginity was highly prized as it related to their marital significance and dowries. We can open up that can of worms if you want? Tell me where I am misinterpreting? i said all things are just as interpretion by all, lol.... if one read any book, and believe the authhor be as evil, cannot many words be heard as evil? if one read a cook book, and totally believe the author is a serial murderer, then will not all words be heard thru this perception when reading, and even one can believe that many things spoken have evil overtones and meanings, lol....... if you wish to know my interpretaion of one story in text, when the perception of all text is as evil, and ignorant, what good would this be....... to me if a book deaclre itself an authority, and i wish to prove all things as wisdom to be heard, then the book that proclaim such i would read thru all the perception said to used to understand first, and the book does not deem by good or bad, a procolamtion itself said to be viewed thru as a prerequistse of proving, as what book written by any that declare itself as true can wish to not be proven by any reader..... if one write a math book, and the index hold all the keys of logic or principles to be used to make the book worthwhile, then would not these have to be used before one declare the book teach nothing and is ignorant writing of ignorant men of times past, lol....... but since you seem to ask what my opinion or interpretation be, then it would be as this......... indeed in text what a person believe is said to be as ones child, or what their existence produce, created by all one believe, as this shape each action as a legacy committed and acted out by any, and is the total sum of their "lot" in life.......... the mind that believe and see all thru good and evil, and the heart that wish to believe in love, growing up as two daughters, as daughters because only "daughters" can give birth to offspring, as what one believe make for offspring created from beliefs...... each human born has two daughters, that grow each day, until they come to a time in ones "lot" or place in history, to become as virgins, or having virgin wisdom, or wisdom never known prior, as even producing virgin words...... so these ones around each house came to ask each man one of his "lot", what another self believes, as each "lot" has their own house, the their own house being the brain, and is everday surrounded by many beings, many coming to be as homosexual, or just as believing only in good, and worshipping only good as having benefit, and saying all else but what oneself believe is evil, creating a homosexual being not capable of reproducing from virgin truth, and these came saying come let us know you, and what you believe your god or truth of your brain your house is, lol...... then when this happened, all the good and bad of the mind as one daughter, and all the heart knew as the other daughter was opened up from the house the brain, and came forth, and sex was not said, but a knowingness of another, and that this is had by any that have see and sleep or rape wisdom, lol....... and as the door was said to be opened, the mouth speaking all virgin wisdom, the bliss of knowing and hearing all virgin truth made by the two daughters made a LIGHT that blinded, as truth be called as light, that blinded ALL to what was once thought, and believed, and that this phenonemon created soon a fire to pour down from heaven, as fire from heaven is said to be as wisdom, and all previous "fleshly" perceptions or conscious mind thinking, of pictures words create was destroyed, and each being then was turned to a pillar of salt, as god was said to be equal for all, so nothing can happen to one that does not happen to another, thru all "lots" any one being has passed thru, and salt is as wisdom in all text, that make all thirsty to hear more, and that this whole "tale" happen before a great new beginning of all wisdom then being had by all beings, and then others stories within text all coming forth from the mouth describe all the rest of the fables meanings telling more of the future of mankind, lol......... there is not one word spoken of in text that does not simply describe the path of mankind, as telling what has already happened, and has no one words of guilt or implication about any living breathing thing, and if interpreted this way, then the very eyesight said to be used when reading has not been used........ any interpretaion spoken from each is just conjecture, opinion, and any truth adpated as a truth within society first came just as an opinion, and came to be adopted as ones heard and identified each thing heard as more truth, as civilizations advanced in time, and what should be believed that create devisivness, and does not show how each being is good, to have the power to create good, by eerasing an evil perspective once promoted form the rooftops of every podium........... nothing can be adapted as more truth less it be agreed by more and more each day, so what is to worry about some saying this, and some saying that, but rather each one speaking their true total honest thoughts, and this seems the only thing in history that brought more wisdom, and wise people always choose what is most beneficial to all.... but many indeed do hide the thougths that one thing is more truth, when such things are whispered to the mind, as who does not at first as children wish simply to most be proven right, even full well knowing one is not, lol....... what that wish to be proven right, and love this most, can see all things thru unbiased eyes, lol........ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Krimsa
on
Thu 08/14/08 11:04 AM
|
|
But you are assuming that I am looking at the bible through biased eyes? Maybe I am and maybe I'm not. How would you know? Perhaps I could say the same about your interpretation of any text addressing the "Big Bang Theory" or the theory of human evolution without any mysticism or god stuff thrown in. Pure science and research. I could ask that you read these texts and then claim you are "biased" also couldn’t I? Thats a cop out my friend. Not to mention that the written words, in this case it is the KJV of the holy scripture will not change or rearrange themselves on the paper simply because I am looking at them with "biased" eyes according to you. So, god's word and meaning should still be the truth and is not merely dependant on the perception of the reader.
Okay so humor me then. Tell me what I am misinterpreting in those passages. We can start with those and move on if you like so it doesn’t just turn into a lot of back and forth. I’m asking you to show me what I apparently do not understand about what is occurring in this biblical story. |
|
|
|
|
