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| Topic: Does God love sinners? | |
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I think if we read christ's own words, in Mathew chapter 10, it might shed a little light on the subject!
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 10/03/08 11:45 PM
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I think God loves all of us! He just hates the evil acts! actually if you've studiesd the bible you would realize that God can hate individuals. Does God hate anyone? Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes. Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity," Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them." Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels." Are these verses hard to read? Do they make you feel uncomfortable? They should. God hates sin. But, He does not punish sin. He punishes the sinner. Sin cannot be tied up and thrown into a fire. It cannot be put in a box or glued to a stick. It is rebellion. It is rebellion in the heart. It is breaking God's Law. Sin occurs inside the heart and mind of people. Therefore, God must punish the sinner. Why? Because He is both Holy and Just and the person who sins offends God. God's Holy and Just character will not allow Him to ignore this offense. Why?.... God's Law is Perfect When God said, "Let there be light," it happened. When He commanded that the oceans be, they came into existence. God's word is powerful. What He says is never futile, empty, or without power. The Law is a reflection of God's character. It is pure and perfect. It is powerful. The Ten Commandments reflect God's holiness and justice. These commandments are not without punishments. A law without consequences is only an empty slogan. To sin is to break God's Law and offend His character. To sin means to challenge His character and authority. It means you go against His word. But God is not a liar. His word is true. He has said He will punish the lawbreaker. But, praise be to God, that while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us (Rom. 5:6). There is no way we can appease God. That is why God became one of us (John 1:1,14; Heb. 2:17), to take our place and become sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). Therefore, people have two options: 1. Trust Jesus, God in flesh, as your savior and put your faith in the sacrifice that He made on the cross and in nothing you do. 2. Reject the cross and let the penalty of the Law fall upon you. Either God pays, or you do -- forever. Which will it be? "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Heb. 10:26). If there is no sacrifice available for you, then God's wrath abides upon you because He hates sin and your sin is not removed (John 3:36). Trust Jesus alone or the wrath of God will abide upon you forever. The sobering fact is that God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). But it is also true that He is love (1 John 4:8). It is better to accept the love of God found in Jesus than to reject it and suffer His wrath. These scriptures have been translated through the filter of human understanding. I really get tired of the "translation excuse" and the "written by man" excuse.....The translational changes do not and I repeat "DO NOT" change the Bible's meaning in any way shape of form..... Feral....You are quoting from the OLD testament ... What does the NEW testament now Say, for instance, about ... an eye for an eye( as mentioned in the old testament)...or about stoning(in the old testament)...or about God LOVING the sinner, Feral? The NEW Testament Now says , instead of an eye for an eye, to now LOVE those who do evil towards you, instead of an eye for an eye... God says in the New testament, he who is without sin, cast the first stone.... In the New Testament, God SOOOO LOVED the World, that He gave His Only Begotten Son..... God SOOOO LOVES the Sinner..Not Hates the Sinner, Feral...... 
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I love all you guy's and gal's. If I can, surely God can!
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The baby born in a manger 2,000 years ago was not only a Savior, but a God of war.
Chuck Norris |
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God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better.
15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcasses, Abram drove them away. Genesis 15 |
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I think if we read christ's own words, in Mathew chapter 10, it might shed a little light on the subject! The gospel of Matthew begins with a boring genealogy..... |
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i like that you havE a way of shutting em up
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I dont want to shut anyone up! Are you kidding. I just have questions about what I am being asked to read. A lot of it is highly contradictory to what many Christians claim to profess. That is all I (and many others) have been demonstrating.
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but you are a good debater.
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Edited by
splendidlife
on
Sat 10/04/08 02:55 PM
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I think God loves all of us! He just hates the evil acts! actually if you've studiesd the bible you would realize that God can hate individuals. Does God hate anyone? Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes. Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity," Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them." Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels." Are these verses hard to read? Do they make you feel uncomfortable? They should. God hates sin. But, He does not punish sin. He punishes the sinner. Sin cannot be tied up and thrown into a fire. It cannot be put in a box or glued to a stick. It is rebellion. It is rebellion in the heart. It is breaking God's Law. Sin occurs inside the heart and mind of people. Therefore, God must punish the sinner. Why? Because He is both Holy and Just and the person who sins offends God. God's Holy and Just character will not allow Him to ignore this offense. Why?.... God's Law is Perfect When God said, "Let there be light," it happened. When He commanded that the oceans be, they came into existence. God's word is powerful. What He says is never futile, empty, or without power. The Law is a reflection of God's character. It is pure and perfect. It is powerful. The Ten Commandments reflect God's holiness and justice. These commandments are not without punishments. A law without consequences is only an empty slogan. To sin is to break God's Law and offend His character. To sin means to challenge His character and authority. It means you go against His word. But God is not a liar. His word is true. He has said He will punish the lawbreaker. But, praise be to God, that while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us (Rom. 5:6). There is no way we can appease God. That is why God became one of us (John 1:1,14; Heb. 2:17), to take our place and become sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). Therefore, people have two options: 1. Trust Jesus, God in flesh, as your savior and put your faith in the sacrifice that He made on the cross and in nothing you do. 2. Reject the cross and let the penalty of the Law fall upon you. Either God pays, or you do -- forever. Which will it be? "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Heb. 10:26). If there is no sacrifice available for you, then God's wrath abides upon you because He hates sin and your sin is not removed (John 3:36). Trust Jesus alone or the wrath of God will abide upon you forever. The sobering fact is that God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). But it is also true that He is love (1 John 4:8). It is better to accept the love of God found in Jesus than to reject it and suffer His wrath. These scriptures have been translated through the filter of human understanding. I really get tired of the "translation excuse" and the "written by man" excuse.....The translational changes do not and I repeat "DO NOT" change the Bible's meaning in any way shape of form..... Feral....You are quoting from the OLD testament ... What does the NEW testament now Say, for instance, about ... an eye for an eye( as mentioned in the old testament)...or about stoning(in the old testament)...or about God LOVING the sinner, Feral? The NEW Testament Now says , instead of an eye for an eye, to now LOVE those who do evil towards you, instead of an eye for an eye... God says in the New testament, he who is without sin, cast the first stone.... In the New Testament, God SOOOO LOVED the World, that He gave His Only Begotten Son..... God SOOOO LOVES the Sinner..Not Hates the Sinner, Feral......
Now... THIS feels real!
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Hey with friends like Jesus, who needs enemies.
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Exodus 15
15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee. Uhh, so pretty much if you get sick, its your own damn fault for not playing ball with god. 
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I think if we read christ's own words, in Mathew chapter 10, it might shed a little light on the subject! "Christ" never left anything written.... |
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I think if we read christ's own words, in Mathew chapter 10, it might shed a little light on the subject! "Christ" never left anything written.... A STONE THAT CHIPS AWAY AT THE ARMOR OF THE GRAND DECEPTION....... |
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I think God loves all of us! He just hates the evil acts! actually if you've studiesd the bible you would realize that God can hate individuals. Does God hate anyone? Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes. Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity," Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them." Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels." Are these verses hard to read? Do they make you feel uncomfortable? They should. God hates sin. But, He does not punish sin. He punishes the sinner. Sin cannot be tied up and thrown into a fire. It cannot be put in a box or glued to a stick. It is rebellion. It is rebellion in the heart. It is breaking God's Law. Sin occurs inside the heart and mind of people. Therefore, God must punish the sinner. Why? Because He is both Holy and Just and the person who sins offends God. God's Holy and Just character will not allow Him to ignore this offense. Why?.... God's Law is Perfect When God said, "Let there be light," it happened. When He commanded that the oceans be, they came into existence. God's word is powerful. What He says is never futile, empty, or without power. The Law is a reflection of God's character. It is pure and perfect. It is powerful. The Ten Commandments reflect God's holiness and justice. These commandments are not without punishments. A law without consequences is only an empty slogan. To sin is to break God's Law and offend His character. To sin means to challenge His character and authority. It means you go against His word. But God is not a liar. His word is true. He has said He will punish the lawbreaker. But, praise be to God, that while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us (Rom. 5:6). There is no way we can appease God. That is why God became one of us (John 1:1,14; Heb. 2:17), to take our place and become sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). Therefore, people have two options: 1. Trust Jesus, God in flesh, as your savior and put your faith in the sacrifice that He made on the cross and in nothing you do. 2. Reject the cross and let the penalty of the Law fall upon you. Either God pays, or you do -- forever. Which will it be? "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Heb. 10:26). If there is no sacrifice available for you, then God's wrath abides upon you because He hates sin and your sin is not removed (John 3:36). Trust Jesus alone or the wrath of God will abide upon you forever. The sobering fact is that God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). But it is also true that He is love (1 John 4:8). It is better to accept the love of God found in Jesus than to reject it and suffer His wrath. These scriptures have been translated through the filter of human understanding. I really get tired of the "translation excuse" and the "written by man" excuse.....The translational changes do not and I repeat "DO NOT" change the Bible's meaning in any way shape of form..... Feral....You are quoting from the OLD testament ... What does the NEW testament now Say, for instance, about ... an eye for an eye( as mentioned in the old testament)...or about stoning(in the old testament)...or about God LOVING the sinner, Feral? The NEW Testament Now says , instead of an eye for an eye, to now LOVE those who do evil towards you, instead of an eye for an eye... God says in the New testament, he who is without sin, cast the first stone.... In the New Testament, God SOOOO LOVED the World, that He gave His Only Begotten Son..... God SOOOO LOVES the Sinner..Not Hates the Sinner, Feral......
I did also say that God loves the sinner not the sin..... |
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TSK, TSK, TSK, - girls, girls - now less not be fighting amongst each other, what would your dear god think??
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Sun 10/05/08 03:36 AM
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TSK, TSK, TSK, - girls, girls - now less not be fighting amongst each other, what would your dear god think??
Its dueling Christians! How appropriate!
Love, hate, what's the difference ladies? As long as someone gets stoned!
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20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest…: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?} 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up} 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Do you see what I'm saying? OH, and by the way my background is similiar to your as being an x-believer but well read in the book. I actually love that scripture........but if I may try to answer your question............ One, clay is not a being. It has no thoughts, no feelings, no desires of its own....to an extent..... By that I mean, that thinks bode easier for the potter if he sits down to make a "creation" but allows that creation freedom to design itself. I've done hair a good part of my life, and I was rather good at styling it, but that is because I let the hair tell me best where to put it. There are parts, hair growth, etc. that have it's own "design" instead of manipulating it completely the best outcome is when you go with the flow..... I know, this was just an observation when it comes to "art", but I suppose people use pottery for practical purposes, if they want a bowl they want a bowl.......... However, I am not ok with being someone elses "bowl" or "cup". I am a living, breathing, being not an inanimate object. So to compare mankind with pottery sounds all romantical and such........but it just doesn't quite fit, imo. Do we as humans have the right to clone human beings to make slaves out of them?? Do we as parents (in essence we had a huge part in their "creation") have a right to force our "way" on them.........even as adults?? I don't think so. I am somewhat of an artist, a creator of sorts, with words and other things............ Art is something unto itself. I have written several poems that seemed to "be". I didn't give them life, but rather I gave them a voice. I don't believe "God" (if there is one) "created" us from scratch, but rather that he gave us a medium. Our energy was already there, even if it was a part of him, once brought forth it becomes a life unto it's own. (I'm not sure if I'm explaining this correctly) What you are speaking of, imo, is slavery. To create a conscious, living being to suit your own purposes............ If that is what "God" did, then I feel we are right in rebelling................ |
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20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest…: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?} 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up} 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Do you see what I'm saying? OH, and by the way my background is similiar to your as being an x-believer but well read in the book. I actually love that scripture........but if I may try to answer your question............ One, clay is not a being. It has no thoughts, no feelings, no desires of its own....to an extent..... By that I mean, that thinks bode easier for the potter if he sits down to make a "creation" but allows that creation freedom to design itself. I've done hair a good part of my life, and I was rather good at styling it, but that is because I let the hair tell me best where to put it. There are parts, hair growth, etc. that have it's own "design" instead of manipulating it completely the best outcome is when you go with the flow..... I know, this was just an observation when it comes to "art", but I suppose people use pottery for practical purposes, if they want a bowl they want a bowl.......... However, I am not ok with being someone elses "bowl" or "cup". I am a living, breathing, being not an inanimate object. So to compare mankind with pottery sounds all romantical and such........but it just doesn't quite fit, imo. Do we as humans have the right to clone human beings to make slaves out of them?? Do we as parents (in essence we had a huge part in their "creation") have a right to force our "way" on them.........even as adults?? I don't think so. I am somewhat of an artist, a creator of sorts, with words and other things............ Art is something unto itself. I have written several poems that seemed to "be". I didn't give them life, but rather I gave them a voice. I don't believe "God" (if there is one) "created" us from scratch, but rather that he gave us a medium. Our energy was already there, even if it was a part of him, once brought forth it becomes a life unto it's own. (I'm not sure if I'm explaining this correctly) What you are speaking of, imo, is slavery. To create a conscious, living being to suit your own purposes............ If that is what "God" did, then I feel we are right in rebelling................ of course "clay" was just a analogy my lady, verse 20 was really the point being made. and for sure i do take that [vs 20] as meaning he has all the rights and we if we choose to believe and follow him have none or very little. actually only the right to fall in line with everything he wants is all we have. He becomes "LORD" master, we become slaves/sheep/"followers" - it seems no different to me than the fuedel system of times past. and causes just as much strife today. But some people like that idea of the powerful protector to look to and follow loyaly all their lives - for me? i am a rebel though not fowl hearted, i choose to make my own way, but i can understand this god spoken of and see why many would gladly follow him. |
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20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest…: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?} 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up} 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Do you see what I'm saying? OH, and by the way my background is similiar to your as being an x-believer but well read in the book. I actually love that scripture........but if I may try to answer your question............ One, clay is not a being. It has no thoughts, no feelings, no desires of its own....to an extent..... By that I mean, that thinks bode easier for the potter if he sits down to make a "creation" but allows that creation freedom to design itself. I've done hair a good part of my life, and I was rather good at styling it, but that is because I let the hair tell me best where to put it. There are parts, hair growth, etc. that have it's own "design" instead of manipulating it completely the best outcome is when you go with the flow..... I know, this was just an observation when it comes to "art", but I suppose people use pottery for practical purposes, if they want a bowl they want a bowl.......... However, I am not ok with being someone elses "bowl" or "cup". I am a living, breathing, being not an inanimate object. So to compare mankind with pottery sounds all romantical and such........but it just doesn't quite fit, imo. Do we as humans have the right to clone human beings to make slaves out of them?? Do we as parents (in essence we had a huge part in their "creation") have a right to force our "way" on them.........even as adults?? I don't think so. I am somewhat of an artist, a creator of sorts, with words and other things............ Art is something unto itself. I have written several poems that seemed to "be". I didn't give them life, but rather I gave them a voice. I don't believe "God" (if there is one) "created" us from scratch, but rather that he gave us a medium. Our energy was already there, even if it was a part of him, once brought forth it becomes a life unto it's own. (I'm not sure if I'm explaining this correctly) What you are speaking of, imo, is slavery. To create a conscious, living being to suit your own purposes............ If that is what "God" did, then I feel we are right in rebelling................ of course "clay" was just a analogy my lady, verse 20 was really the point being made. and for sure i do take that [vs 20] as meaning he has all the rights and we if we choose to believe and follow him have none or very little. actually only the right to fall in line with everything he wants is all we have. He becomes "LORD" master, we become slaves/sheep/"followers" - it seems no different to me than the fuedel system of times past. and causes just as much strife today. But some people like that idea of the powerful protector to look to and follow loyaly all their lives - for me? i am a rebel though not fowl hearted, i choose to make my own way, but i can understand this god spoken of and see why many would gladly follow him. In time the Rockies may crumble, Gibraltar may tumble They're only made of clay But our love is here to stay -Frank Sinatra |
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