HEY,HEY,HEY - let's not get personal now!!

I'm really not that bad!! -

What is perfect?? How do you define it? You say that "God's word" is powerful, and is law, and one can not go against it........and in the same breath say that those who go against it are in rebellion and "God" because he is "perfect" and "just" must cast said sinner into the Lake of Fire.

A "LAW" that is a TRUE law, can not be broken. It is only laws made my man that can be......because they indeed are subjective.

If God's laws make it so, then it would be impossible to "offend" him.....it would be impossible to "rebel".

I respect you much, Deb, just pointing out what I consider flaws in logic.

"free will" does not exist when talking about an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent being....... One who sets things in motion, has the world in his hand, is in control.............It is impossible to offend such a one. Impossible I say.


To answer the OP, I do not believe that "God" loves us, because I believe that my "god" IS love.

But lady POM, if this god gives you a free will to use without interfering with your choices would that not be seen as a way for man to circumvent the unbreakable laws you speak of?

If you can make a free will choice to go against these perfect laws, without any influences from this god what so ever, then cannot that which he intended be over ruled by your/our free will choices to disobey them? - hmmm??

I'll have to think on that theory, and then respond.......but I however lean toward my believe that you can not OFFEND a god that is a true "God". That is like saying that my children can offend me. I suppose for some people their children do offend them.....but to me, and my mind finding offense in another is simply a root of the desire to manipulate those around you in an attempt to "smooth" over your own issues.

Someone can only truly "offend" me (though that offense matters little when looking at the big picture) When they have indeed loved me, gotten to know me intimately (not necessarily sexually) and then not respected "me". If they never knew me, I could not/would not be offended by anything they could do, not in the spiritual/mental sense. I mean, I'd obviously consider it an offense for someone to smack me, but it doesn't make me hate them.

As a matter of fact, because I belief in FREE WILL, I feel that anyone can do/will do whatever it is that makes them happy......and even when it causes me pain/suffering.......it is still my responsibility on how I allow that to affect me. Am I going to allow it to bring something so negative into my heart as hate??? No. I will more than likely feel sympathy, as in my mind.....they are simply trying to live life in the ways they know how.

Anyhoo.........With my children (IF indeed there is a God who is father of us all, I'm sure he'll be a BETTER parent than myself) I give them boundaries.....these boundaries are not for my own benefit (for the most part) but for theirs. If they break these boundaries I do not get angry or "hate" them......but rather try to help them understand what they should learn from it and what they should do different next time.

I have found/know unconditional love........and unconditional love does not say, IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL.........................

I LOVE YOU FREELY, BUT YOU MUST.........................

A true/good/healthy father/mother does not PUNISH, but guides in hopes that children will fulfill their potential, that they will grow to be happy, healthy, loving adults.

That's a good analogy lady POM, but what if this god's desire was to do no more originally than what you state, it seem the eden story starts out with god allowing them to pleasure themselves with all he provided them at the beginning. What if mans free will had not chosen to do what the father concidered sin? i agree with your feelings on how to raise your children also but as a former parent i also know as you some guidelines must be in place and love must be unconditional, and punishment must be of that type whixh is instructional - but i have seen chldren that were plain devilish in nature from a very early age and no amount of instruction seemed to turn them around, no amount of love or coddling or acceptence, you may not know of children like this but i do. if and when this is the case how would you hadle such circumstances?

if there is true comprehension of anything read, that what need is there to repeat words heard to prove others are as guilty?

anything can do such, and this be nothing more than strong arm tactic's to lift up self as sinless, by seeking to prove others are of sin.....

did it not say in the manner one has judged is the manner oneself is judged?

perhaps my ears have failed me in some way.....

perhaps someone will enlighten my perception as to why and how such things can be said to be of biblical truth, when all other words added to them from the same source, show them to be only partial words repeated, to prove others are of sin, and self is not, as is always the case when one believe's itself be of god, and all others not as same as self are not.......

if it was said the laws of god are transcribed upon the heart, then does not one have to judge anothers HEART to say another is not of god?

does not judgment have to be pronounced by the heart that confess it is of god, to look at another and deem them to be not as doing what god command?

did it not also say what is sin for one is not sin for another?

THEN HOW CAN THE LIST OF WHAT BE SIN BE DEFINED BY ANY MORTAL?

why would it say this less it was warning to not give up one's own crown over misperceptions, and what be the crown, as it is not eternal life for self that is sought by any that actually love more, but rather LOVE IS THE CROWN, as god is love, so ONLY IMPARTIAL LOVE FOR ALL, WHICH BE ALL MANKIND IS ETERNAL......

so what that peer thru the law, does not peer just as the scribes and pharisees once did, and make many others as lost, and sinful, not seeing the act of doing this, seperat oneself from the true god that LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD, leaving only a form of godliness, as such holding to traditions that give false prove to oneself they are of gods thinking.......

does not one that put forth a law as determined by one self alone as MOST GOD, make themself as described in text as speaking as satan, of divide, for did not satan war against god that loved the whole world, thinking himself as BETTER and greater than simple god that love all?

is not this making self a judge and jury as god, when if such as do this, actually believed in god, how could this all powerful god not make all abide by the same law, if it so wished, witnessed by the same spoken that all like sheep have gone astray, so the same as saying all are supposed to go astray, as being born mortal, no learning would EVER be has less there was bad, lol......

if all the words of christ were to hold as true, then anything that say it's neighbor is lost, show oneself is lost does it not?

how can one judge a neighbor as having sin, and not all there own sin that be as returned?

did it not also say to never say who shall decend to the pit, and who shall accend to the father?

if one deems another break the "law of god" then it was said to pray for them, as when one pray for their neighbor that they deem to be in sin, and the god they pray to wil surly answer back what show self is worse, as for thinking self was as clean, and a neighbor as unclean......

indeed, it also told of the parable of two men praying at a wall, and one smote his chest as wretched before god, and the other looked to his this one at his side, and thanked god he was not as filthy as the neighbor, and it was said the ONE THAT SMOTE HIS CHEST AS WRETCHED WAS AS JUSTIFIED, OR AS FORGIVEN, LEAVING THE OTHER AS WHAT?

if there was "salvation from ignorance" as a FREE GIFT, as was said within text of salvation, then is not the free gift given up, if it is turned by the hearer into a thing of merit, and of achieving, showing one has deemed themself as having EARNED ONESELF INTO THE KINGDOM, evidenced by all manner of words uttered from the mouth......

if one cannot earn thier way into the kingdom of heaven, than what kingdom does one find if there is thought to be earning achieved of self?

just how many kingdoms are there?

it seems there are only two, total love, and parital love......

how can one group as right and all others as wrong, be not of paritial love?

Threatening people in order that they go along with your wishes and desires is not a decent manner in which to conduct one's self. This god is beginning to sound more and more like a prison inmate extorting cash through threats of bodily harm. It doesn't sit well with me. I would rather just take my chances.

Same here. If he wanted me to believe in him without any doubt, and if he wanted me to follow a set of rules, then he should make it clear that he does exist and lay down the rules simply and without ambiguity.

Because there is no fkn way that i am gonna waste a minute of my time following some bullsh1t that might turn out to be completely wrong.

And if it were true that only Christians will go to heaven, and the rest will burn in hell, then i say....F**K HIM and his sh1tty heaven. I'll go burn with the majority of the worlds population that he is so readily willing to discard.

If Christianity is correct and the bible true, then God is immoral, and i dont want to be part of it.

was it not also written that the scripture be of NO PERSONAL INTERPRETATION?

so to speak it's personal meaning to self, as a guide for others, make it of a personal interpretation, as if it is what is believed, then it was interpreted personally by self, and to make this the interpretation for all, or ALL ARE LOST, IS OF THE PITS OF DECEPTION, AS IT DENOUNCE MANY OTHER WORDS TO ACHIEVE SUCH BELIEF'S......

if this personal interpretation is applied outward as a guide for others, or the measure in the mind of how others are deemed good and bad, then this break the truth "what is sin for one is not sin for another......

is not this the diobolical nature of the text, as it give opposites of all things, instructing opposite as it were, for wisdom to come to see that only the TRUE NATURAL WANT, not any state WISHED OR SOUGHT TO BE, is of greatest love or god or wisdom......

indeed, did it not also say that NO MAN CAN PLEASE GOD?

so how can this truth remain, and one tell another what actions are PLEASING TO ANY GOD?

so when it comes to the memory, as indeed, it was also written that christ the spirit of god would bring ALL THINGS TO THE REMEMBERENCE, SO THEN "WHO" CONTROL THE MEMORY OF A MAN if any believe in words of text?

if a MORTAL hath no control over ALL HIS MEMORY, AS IF IT SAY "GOD" CONTROL THIS, THAN WHO BE DEEMED TO BE AS GUILTY BY ANOTHER, LOL....

it is only men that seek to be judge and jury of others unto hell that transcribe the book to be such things that implicate.......

did it not also say "he that hath an ear let him hear?

but yet it say only those that god call can come to him.....

would not these two cancel each other out to make........NONE HAS POWER OF SELF WILL TO DEMAND OR EVEN ASK FOR GREATER WISDOM?

would not this hold true ot the saying NOT MY WILL BUT YOUR?

indeed, it is mankind it seems that seek to BETTER SELF, that pray for all manner of evils, without the knowing that anything is as given if one believe it, and if one asks to be kind, to be a better person, then they ask for SELF, and not because of the pain they see their unkindness has caused for others.......

who give the perception each look thru?

all of these things seem to indicate why it is clearly spoken with GREAT emphasis the telling of how jesus was MET BY SATAN, and this thing SATAN BROUGHT SCRIPUTRES TO HIM, TO TRY TO CONTROL HIS ACTIONS, AS A GUIDE, and it seems jesus told satan to get behind him.......

was not this moment that was recorded within text telling of how jesus rose above the law so then the law was fulfilled within himself?

then if all were told to be as him, how could a law be abided by, and not just what the heart feel........

how then can a law be given to others?

is it not clear that all and none can have impartial love if following the law of righeoussness?

what more is this than the FREEING FROM THE LAW, AS SPOKEN BY MANY UPON MANY IN THE NEW TESTEMANT?

what of paul that said IF THERE IS CONTENTION BY SUCH THINGS AS THE LAW, THEN THERE IS NO LAW?

saying text be my guide, as a book to follow, seems to lead to deception, as anything read can be interpreted in many ways, but what is within that whisper to self has only one true honest meaning to the hearer, that answer honestly yes or no to any guilt felt........

the thought that all guilt needs a fixed willed action to change is lead to decpetion that ensnare that greatest to the least, as it is only what be agreed upoin by self that is needed, as anything more is self will to righeoussness, which was called as vanity.......

if one seeks to follow an outside guide of good, then one tries to will changes to self to match the good found on the outside, so is it not easily decieved by all manner of things on the outside, as each perception of good was shaped by all words heard and things seen, so totally from conscious environment, and WHO ASKED FOR THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENT, as meaning who asked to be born into the family was was born into?

so if the law is dosed out to others, does not the carnal mind or conscious mind prove it is being used to make the guide of good?

so then thinking being with the carnal mind, which is called as satan, or just ignorance of greater truth, CANNOT SEE WHAT MAKE FREE FROM ANY LAW OF GOOD........

is it not to those that beleive in text the carnel mind that look and say this is bad, this is good?

SO THEN TRUTH OF GOD GO beyond consciousness of thoughts when looking at all things as good and bad?

was it not also spoken many would COME IN MY NAME, SAYING HERE IS TRUTH, THERE IS TRUTH, BUT DO NOT GO, AS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BE WITHIN?

so then who that say HERE IS TRUTH, HAS SPOKEN ANY GREATER TRUTH THAT CAN FREE FROM UNKNOWING?

just ideas of a fool

It seems to me that being a child predator is FAR worse than not being a Christian or accepting Jesus but oh well...

I would like to know how the god squad justify this one.

I don't believe children are completely "devilish"..........I believe they can be at times, but I have never met a child who was all "bad"........or all "good".

I have a child many would describe as you have these other children.

He is sweet, loving, kind, very creative.............but as he is still a child these wonderful characteristics: determination, strong will, and the creativity previously mentioned can make it difficult to parent him. His will is as strong as mine.........so do as I say just because I say so rarely works with him.

He's hit, kicked, screamed, cussed, hated, and threatened to kill me with one breath, and hugged me, told me he loved me, etc. with the next.

No amount of "punishment" works.

Punishment does not make one love you, it makes one afraid of you.........there is a difference. The fear of someone will cause you to change your behavior for a while.........

Such as, when they are around (vs when they are not)

and until you are bigger/stronger than they are...........

However, leadership and guidance offers tools.........it is up to the child as an individual to use those tools. If he chooses to screw up his life, it is his life. It will sadden me to see him/her make poor choices, but until they do right, for the sake of doing right........because they have seen that it is a benefit to them.........they will continue on the path they choose.

My thoughts are hard to explain.

There is a book called "Love and Logic" and it talks about the "coddling" parent. There is a difference between unconditionally loving your child, accepting your child...........and being a mat for your child to stomp his dirty feet on. It becomes a problem, when you do not allow them to suffer the consequences of their actions........... It is the consequences that teach the lesson...........they are not devised by you once they become old enough to have "real world" consequences.......

If they spend all their "allowance" on a video game then they don't have money to buy deoderant, etc.

Punishment and consequences aren't the same thing, imo.

I could explain it........."repentance" truly means a "change" an "about face" you turn away from whatever it is you are repentant of..........

I personally agree with it.......people make bad choices in life......and despite how we judge eachother.......most of us are simply doing our best to "get through" life......

A change of heart, desires, intentions in essence frees the self............it isn't a matter of "God" forgiving you, imo, but rather you learn to forgive yourself.

There is not one man alive who is not capable of becoming Hitler, or Bin Laden...........and though it isn't completely dependent on circumstances........they do have an awful amount of influence.

I promise no one could torture another's soul, more than a soul that has not accepted itself already does.

That just doesnt cut it for me Nancy, but thanks for trying!

I understand people make mistakes, and the reason for people doing things, including pedofilia, is largely dependant on what life has thrown at an individual. But people should still take responsibility for their own actions. People find it easy to forgive themselves sometimes as it is, as they can lay blame on something or someone other than themself.

So, all you gotta do therefore is forgive yourself, and be Christian, and you get to go to heaven. Pedo's often dont think they are doing wrong anyway, they think its normal. They will forgive themselves very easily.

Seems pretty easy to get in heaven anyway, so i dont need to worry about anything. I'll just bullsh1t being a true christian last minute, like many people bullsh1t being one their whole lives.

LOL, I feel ya on that one.

I'm not saying it is the "truth", as I personally don't believe that "Heaven" and "Hell" exist..........at least not in any spiritual sense....

I'm simply saying why they believe that.........and if you were to take some views.......it isn't your action or non action that saves it, but rather grace. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved except accept the said gift of salvation.... being receiving Christ.

I tend to believe in reincarnation........you will keep living life until you fix what it is you keep screwing up. In my mind if anything is Hell, life here on planet earth is.........but in that, it serves a purpose.

Well I must say your answers are impressive my lady, let's go over them if i may"

POM:

I don't believe children are completely "devilish"..........I believe they can be at times, but I have never met a child who was all "bad"........or all "good".


TRIBO: me neither, though i won't go so far as to say there are non - i rally don't know.




I have a child many would describe as you have these other children.

He is sweet, loving, kind, very creative.............but as he is still a child these wonderful characteristics: determination, strong will, and the creativity previously mentioned can make it difficult to parent him. His will is as strong as mine.........so do as I say just because I say so rarely works with him.

He's hit, kicked, screamed, cussed, hated, and threatened to kill me with one breath, and hugged me, told me he loved me, etc. with the next.

No amount of "punishment" works.


TRIBO:

Yes I have seen this many times and i agree with the no punishment as to corporal punishment, though other methods have worked such a quite time or time outs etc. At least for me.




Punishment does not make one love you, it makes one afraid of you.........there is a difference. The fear of someone will cause you to change your behavior for a while.........

Such as, when they are around (vs when they are not)

and until you are bigger/stronger than they are...........

TRIBO: - Agreed!




However, leadership and guidance offers tools.........it is up to the child as an individual to use those tools. If he chooses to screw up his life, it is his life. It will sadden me to see him/her make poor choices, but until they do right, for the sake of doing right........because they have seen that it is a benefit to them.........they will continue on the path they choose.

TRIBO: - i chose to take their energy and redistribute it into other things like music and playing musical instruments and the like, that worked for mine but does not mean for others necessarily.




My thoughts are hard to explain.


TRIBO: - Nah, no harder than anyone else's thoughts -




There is a book called "Love and Logic" and it talks about the "coddling" parent. There is a difference between unconditionally loving your child, accepting your child...........and being a mat for your child to stomp his dirty feet on. It becomes a problem, when you do not allow them to suffer the consequences of their actions........... It is the consequences that teach the lesson...........they are not devised by you once they become old enough to have "real world" consequences.......

TRIBO: - agreed!




If they spend all their "allowance" on a video game then they don't have money to buy deodorant, etc.

Punishment and consequences aren't the same thing, imo.


TRIBO:

Hmmm?? to me they are the same in this sense, consequences can be punishments, but are not necessarily so, depending on what consequences one has wrought, be it good things - no! bad things - yes. murder, child molestation, wife beating, etc., will bring punishment even death to some - consequences for helping someone should be good ones -



But this still doesn't answer the question of a creative force that has every right to do what it/she/he feels is necessary to obtain the desired result of it's creation? "IF" there is a book god, and he did make us, does he not have the abosolute right to do as he pleases and see's fit to bring about the results he intended? Who are we [the creation] to judge or crtique that which formed us and gave us life if that be the case. or as paul puts it:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {repliest…: or, answerest again, or, disputest with God?}
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {fitted: or, made up}
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Do you see what I'm saying?

OH, and by the way my background is similiar to your as being an x-believer but well read in the book.

I agree. What I in fact take issue with is not that someone is forgiven. Forgiveness and mercy are inherent components of being human in my opinion. Its not that at all. Its the idea that a child predator will be allowed into heaven for converting to Christianity yet a person who has chosen not to accept Christ as his savior is destined for hell. Its the actual comparison between the two perceived "wrongs" that I cant wrap my head around. As if somehow they are both lumped in as being "sins". It would appear that god is simply desirous of conversion and establishing a fan base and his vested interests are not based in forgiveness or mercy at all.

We are all children of God and he does love us all. He hates the demons that causes us to do bad things.

The Word has to be rigthly divided thruout scriptures....in order to get the full meaning...

God Loves Everyone......and Hates No One.

For God Sooooo LOVED the World
that He Gave His Only Begotten Son....

God LOVES Us All !!!!

Wrong Feral...God LOVES the Sinner.