I realize that there are things that people have done to us that had such impact that as adults we are still working through the effects. There is molestation, harsh parents. Unloving parents, those who demean and ridicule. There are betrayals by mates, business partners and all that kind of stuff.

These things leave enormous marks on us. Some times we feel trapped by it. We feel that these things molded us, and affected us to the degree that we are in places from which we can never escape.

But there is a way of escape. It is not easy nor is it quick. There are two parts. First consider that as they were being killed, Jesus and Steven said forgive them father because they don't know what they do.

This is usually the case. Most of the time we really don't know what motivated the other person. We don't know what events in their life made them. We don't know what they endured in this deceived world that left deep marks on them.

Thus, if we look deep inside, I believe we will come to see that if we were them and in those same situations, we would likely do what they did. We judge them from our perspective.

We think we can do that because we would not do what they did, but we are not them. We did not experience what they did. There is no way for us to judge others or condemn others.

Second, when we consider, which we seldom really do, what we have done to others, it doesn't make any sense to hold a grudge, hostility, or anger. It does not make any sense to be unwilling to let the person go hoping that they will come to their senses.

There is spiritual understanding that can be attained which frees us from the prison of past hurts. From the offender's perspective, at the time, they did what they believed they had to do. Further, if we look, we will generally find that we have done something similar or even worse to others in our lifetime.

When we understand this, then the bars that hold us where we are fade away as we see that it was only a prison created by our attitude of mind.

Art

I applaud Abra's wisdom and his statement here, and I would like to add to his comments from a biblical example.

There is a purpose for forgiveness, and that purpose is reconciliation. It is restore fellowship, trust, and unity between two people.

In order to achieve that, the offending person must repent. They must change the behavior that caused the offense.

That does not always happen, so what do we do? Do we not forgive them and eat ourselves up inside? Or do we forgive them so that we don't become bitter? What would Jesus do?

I suggest that by His example, we are neither to forgive or condemn, but rather, we are to reserve judgment in hope.

For example, when it came to the woman caught in aduletry, they brought her to Him, trying to trap him. They thought if Christ said to let her go, then the people would think He did not support the law given by Moses. He would be exposed as a fraud. If, on the other hand, He did not forgive her, then He would be seen as validating the unloving Pharisees and would lose his popularity among the people.

Trying to trap Him, they gave Him two options--forgive or condemn.

However, Christ did neither. He did not forgive her. Neither did He condemn her. He told her to go and sin no more. In other words, go and repent and be reconciled to God.

I believe that true forgiveness cannot be granted unless there is true repentance. However, if the offending party does not repent, we don't have to carry hostile feelings toward the person. We can let them go in hope that they will repent.

When they finally do see it, and they repent, we can completely forgive so that the relationship is repaired and fellowship is restored.

Art

From my study, this about as accurate as a person can get in a few words.



But they did not just kill Muslims. They killed Jews and other professing Christians who did not have the same view as they did. This should not surprise us, however. It is exactly what Christ foretold in the the first and second seal.

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Some believe that this white horse is Christ. It obviously is not. These four horsemen are all plagues--banes on humanity--including the white horse and its rider. This horseman carries a man made weapon of war, not the supernatural sword of Christ's mouth (Rev 19) The white symbolizes purity, but in this case it is a false purity. This is false ministers coming in Christ's name, acting as ministers of light, and deceiving people. He goes forth with the bow, and conquers men with military power. This naturally leads to war--the next seal.

Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This horse is red, the color of blood, and he makes war on the earth. From the time of Christ we have had religious wars, crusades, inquisitions, and continuing rumors of religious and ethnic wars.

Jesus enumerates these six seals in Mat 24 in the same order as Revelation, but without the symbolism.

first seal: white
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Mat 24:6

second seal: Red
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

third seal: black & balances
and there shall be famines,

fourth seal: Pale green sickness and death
and pestilences, . . .in divers places.

In our world today, we think we are above such religious persecution as has happened in the past, but the truth is that the worst is yet to come. That same system begun by Constantine will rise again. The woman, a church in prophecy, will once again ride the beast, a great empire, exercising enormous military might.

This brings us to the fifth seal---martyrdom of the saints. As Jesus continues to state:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. . . .Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This has been the case from the onset of Christianity. Jesus
promised us this:

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

People sometimes read over the statement in Revelation 12:9 that says the devil has deceived the whole world. It is so ironic. Professing Christians believe differently, worship God other than the way that the bible says, and yet we all think it is us who is not deceived. No one thinks it could be me!

If you can hear it, the devil has enormous power. He can get professing Christians to kill other Christians in the name of Christ.

You have to hand it to him. The enemy is good at what he does.

Art

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."
Patrick Henry

The Bible is without question the most important book ever written. Penned by more than 40 authors from many different generations over a span of more than 1500 years, this matchless volume contains a unity of ethical and moral thought which proves that one Great Mind inspired its contents. Unique among all writings, the Bible transports the reader back in time, documenting events that occurred even prior to the existence of man. It can also propel the reader forward, boldly foretelling man’s ultimate destiny. This one volume offers mankind both practical fact and spiritual wisdom that reaches beyond the physical realm.
Because it was inspired by God, there is a vast difference between the Bible and other books. Various religious writers may produce works explaining their personal views of God, or their interpretations of His will, but this one book states without apology that it is God’s Word, and as such, it stands alone as the absolute moral authority for all mankind.
The Bible is like a window that enables us to peer into the very mind of God. By studying it we can understand the way He thinks, what His values are, and what ours should be. God’s Word literally empowers us with His wisdom. Filled with His perfect law, the history of His people and the personal examples of the saints, the Bible provides man with the answers to life’s questions.
Like most people, you probably have had questions about this life, about the supernatural or about life after death. There may have even been times when you wished you could interview God and get the answers to your questions. What would God say if He spoke directly to you? The astounding truth is: He has! God has spoken to all of us through the pages of His book. Those times when we desired to know the keys to success in the workplace, the way to peaceably handle a potential conflict or the road to personal happiness, the answers were always there. They were waiting for us in His book!
The Bible supplies the answers to every question regarding how we should live, but it provides us with much more. It reveals the very mystery of why man is on the earth, and why the physical universe exists. For example, have you ever wondered: why is this beautiful blue and green planet teeming with so many different varieties of life, and what is man’s place among them? Why were we born, and what is our ultimate destiny?
The answer to these questions and many more are found in the Bible. Every one of us can benefit from the valuable wisdom and lessons taught throughout its pages. We all need to read the book!

Art

I want to speculate on what these angelic forces were fighting over. God had prophesied that there would be a series of empires that would come to rule over western civilization. The head of gold was Babylon, the chest of silver was Persia, the thighs of brass were Greece, and the legs of iron Rome.

Daniel was in Babylon during the reign of Babylon, and then when the Medo-Persian empire took over. Greece was to take over after the Persian empire.

Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last. Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

This is the battle what would take place. The ram with two horns was the combined empires of Media and Persia. The goat was Alexander the great whose swift victories are pictured by feet that don't touch the ground they are so fast they seemed to fly.

It was not yet God's timing for Greece. Of course, the demonic world, the power behind these thrones would want to somehow damage God's timing. The demons would fight with God's angels trying to upset the chronology.

Art

Hi Sexy,

I have a problem with this story. Of course it could possibly be true, but what I hope it won't do is feed what I believe is a wrong impression that some believers have. That impression is that God is somehow like a magic genie and He is there to protect us and provide for us.

I know that God can and does protect people, but, there is a flip side. Some take this to a wrong conclusion. They think they don't have to work at finding a job. They think they don't have to work at finding a mate. They allow themselves to be in dangerous situations believing that God will protect them. By this they tempt God.

Here are some verses to clarify my point. God says, we are not to do things to temp Him. When the devil told Him to prove who He was by jumping from a high place, Jesus refused. He realized it was tempting God to put yourself in harm's way:

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

God's people are not promised a special protected life.

Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

So, God tells us that time & chance happen to us. If we are in the wrong place at the wrong time, we could have the wrong thing happen to us. It is not God's fault.

Speaking of the devil, we are told:

1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

So, the same things must happen to believers that happen to unblievers. Christ suffered. He experienced all that we do, so He could be a merciful high priest.

We are going to be kings and priests in the future. True Christians will teach others during the millennium and therefore, they can't have a perfect easy life. If they did, then they would not have compassion on others.

Because of this truth, Paul writes:

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Thanks for bring up an interesting point

Art

Someday you will get over your anger my friend. In the mean time, consider

1. Not everyone agrees on what Shakespeare wrote.
2. God did not intend for everyone to understand without pursuing the truth with sincerity. Therefore, Christ spoke in parables so that He would not be understood

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

In like manner, The bible itself was also written so that it would not be understood by everyone.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.



The answer is so that people like you would not understand it Abra. There is a key to understanding the book. God plainly gives us that key, but no one wants to use it. That key is this:

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Thus, God tells us if we will sincerely strive to live by His commandments, then we will be able to understand the book. However, most people want to believe that the Bible says those things that they want it to say in order to justify doing what they want to do. As Jesus explained regarding the religious leaders of his day:

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,. . . Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

So, the religion you grew up with read their own tradition into the scriptures, and you reject that. But, you have made the mistake of rejecting God and the Bible too.



The answer is yes. He is God. He is not begging you to care about Him. He is not like you. He is the Almighty God. He is not crawling on His knees to get your acceptance or the approval of anyone else.

You think that if there is a god, he should be like you. So, no matter what you or others might read in the book, you cannot understand it. So, because you don't understand it, you mock it. Aren't you the smart one, mocking what you don't understand?

God has made Himself available to man. He has been written in the pages of history, and this book called the Bible. If anyone wants to find Him, they must seek Him. However, He has rules. Those who seek Him must do so understanding who He is. They must respect Him and seek Him by obedience if they want to understand.



There is no ambiguity in the Bible. It clearly says to obey God from Genesis to Revelation. That is the message of its history. That is the message of its poetry. That is the message of it prophecy. It is the clear undeniable message of the bible. You have to think about these here scholars of yours. I know you and the scholars don't understand it, but you get my point. The message of the bible is too simple for them and you to grasp.

So, because you don't want to obey God, you ridicule God and the Bible as ambiguous. You tell everyone that we can't really know what it says.

You think that your conclusion is valid. Of course it is valid for someone who does not know what he is talking about. You admit you don't understand it. It is ambiguous to you. So, you become the judge of it instead of the disciple of it. Is there any other things you don't understand that you would like to condemn or make accusations against? I am sure the world is waiting for your opinion.

In truth is that, if we do understand God's book, we actually can discount the scholars. They are generally filled with pride. They don't understand the book. As God says:

Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he says, I cannot; for it is sealed:

The learned or scholars are too smart to humble themselves to obey God and thus understand the book. It is sealed to them. It does not make sense.



The truth is that it is totally ignorant to brush off the Bible because we are so filled with our own pregudice that we can't understand it. This is so ironic. Just simplify your position and think. It runs like this. "I don't understand, so because I don't understand, it can't be true." "Further other smart men don't understand it. So it must not be true." Great thinking!

Further, you and the scholars do have a predisposition to not want to believe in God. Adam and Eve did not, and the Israelites did not. And, mankind in general has not believed. You do not understand, and it for a reason. Notice what Paul writes:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In other words, without the spirit of God to guide us, then our minds are hostile to God's law. Without that spirit we can't --you can't be subject to God's law, and can't understand it.

How do we get the spirit? By obedience:

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



What I think is so funny is that no one who studies the Bible really cares if you agree with anyone or not? This post was not about what you think about the bible. Did you ever think of that? You came into the post to mock the bible. But the post was for believers who wanted to study the Old Covenant and writings and learn from it. I think it is so presumptions. But then again, that is the very exact reason you don't understand.



REGARDING SIR ISSAC NEWTON

Of unequaled mental ability during his entire adult life until his death at age 85, Newton's powers are legendary. It is often told, for example, how later in his life a problem in mathematical physics posed by the great mathematician, Bernoulli, was forwarded to the Royal Society. The problem, to determine the curve of minimum time for a heavy particle to move downward between two given points, had baffled the famous 18th century mathematicians of Europe for over six months. Receiving the problem in the afternoon, Newton solved it before going to bed!

In addition to his scientific work (Newton would have said as a part of his scientific work), he devoted a substantial portion of his enormous energy to the study of the Bible and Biblical texts and history. He read the Bible daily throughout his life and wrote over a million words of notes regarding his study of it.

Isaac Newton believed that the Bible is literally true in every respect. Throughout his life, he continually tested Biblical truth against the physical truths of experimental and theoretical science. He never observed a contradiction. In fact, he viewed his own scientific work as a method by which to reinforce belief in Biblical truth.

He was a formidable Biblical scholar, was fluent in the ancient languages, and had extensive knowledge of ancient history. He believed that each person should read the Bible, and through that reading, establish for himself an understanding of the universal truth it contains.

Only one book of Newton's about the Bible was ever published. In 1733, six years after his death, J. Darby and T. Browne, published Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John. http://www.reformation.org/newton.html

Abra, this is another example of you preaching things you don't understand. I would dismiss your opinion. You don't understand.



Get a job there my friend, dsl is not that expensive. 29-50 bucks a month? How do you date the nice ladies on this site with no money?

Art

Maybe it is time to get a job,

art

This is the thing that I have noticed over the years. The church follows the same kind of pattern that nations or corporations follow. They start off with a vision that they believe in and want to fulfill. They sacrifice and work hard to fulfill the commission. In time the organization grows, and then it begins to serve itself not the purpose for which it was created.

I have been in churches that boasted members in the thousands. I spoke before a congregation of 1600. The ministers feel a sense of power when they speak to a large group. So, they build large churches with large incomes and it strokes their ego.

Now I fellowship with a group of 24 and we have people who listen in that sometimes brings us up to fifty. Our bylaws require that if the local group becomes more than fifty, we start another group. I love the family atmosphere, and the fact that everyone has a significant part.

I am voting for you finding a small church group. You certainly will be missed in such a group.

Art

But, what if the goal was the Kingdom of God and not money or recognition in this life. I read this and thought, Wow! Success. Who does not admire the story of your mother. And she raised you without tons of boyfriends, numbing her pain with alcohol, and no drugs. You are the product of her success.

Art

I believe that just like the laws of physics there are laws to success. I would suggest the following:

1. Pick a worthy goal--one that you desire to attain. Write it down. Define it in detail. Then set the short term goals that will eventually lead to the fulfillment of your long term goal.

2. Prepare for success by getting a good education. If there is a certain field you want to enter, become an expert in that field. Continue to spend 1/2 hour at least every day studying new things in your field

3. Live in such a way as to preserve your health. It won't do any good to attain success if you don't live to enjoy it. So, eat right, sleep, and keep a positive mental attitude. This will keep your mind alert and your body capable of doing what is necessary to attain success.

4. The winners drive themselves. We must exercise effort every day to succeed. Put out real effort, drive ourselves. Don't let down, and ultimately you will succeed. The lazy sometimes fall into success, but it is not the norm.

5. Be persistent. Don't let temporary failures, set backs, or let downs dissuade you from your goal. Everyone finds a time when they want to give up. That is the time to put in extra effort. Some times it is just a fine line between success and failure, and by staying with it, you can make it happen. Those who quit never succeed.

6. Be resourceful. Don't expect your success to come by doing the same thing over and over. If it is not working, find another path around the mountain. Be creative.

7. Make God your partner. There are things that we cannot always overcome on our own. There is a place for supernatural help. Thus, keeping God's holy law, striving to live a righteous life, and being faithful to God can give us an edge that others do not have.

Art

I don't think that there is a problem with science and God.
Science is just catching up with God. They now admit that the world is round, just like God says. They now admit that the earth was hung on nothing, just like God says. They now admit that the universe had a beginning, just like God says.

Eventually they will catch up to God.

Art
Art

Of course. But, no one gave their lives in order to teach that Mr. Holmes was real. It is so funny to me.

If we can forget the reality of Churchill that quick, I do now understand how these guys can make the claim. I mean people quote Herodotus, no one thinks he did not exist. There is the Bible account in the gospels. Matthew wrote in the early sixties. Acts covers the the rest of the years, and the apostle John through the first century. Then there are eyewitness to John, and those who passed down the accounts and history from then on. It amazes me.

Art

Nice Bike

Art

Creation is not perfect, but what if that was actually a part of God's plan to produce perfect beings--children of God--children like Himself?

For example,

Rom 8:20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In other words, if you were going to make a being perfect, what would insure that it would stay perfect? Consider Lucifer who was created perfect, but became prideful over it, and turned evil.

I think God's answer was to create an imperfect world, and allow mankind to experience sin, and its results first. Then, those who reject that imperfect way, and fight against it, will be changed to and eventually become perfect.

Speaking of those prophets and holy men of old who lived this life resisting evil, the author of Hebrews says they are waiting for the end when the resurrection will occur. He says Heb 11:40 . . .that they without us should not be made perfect.

So, the world we live in is not perfect, but it is not a reflection on a perfect God. The story is not over yet. The imperfect world is here to teach us a lesson. Eventually, this will be done away in a massive lake of fire, and there will be a new heavens and earth that are perfect. This perfect world will be inhabited with those who learned the lesson and have themselves become perfect.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whore mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Perfection comes at the end of all this. For now, imperfect is part of the plan

art

A TEDDY BEAR GOD

Does it make you angry that your parents used the threat of punishment to control you? Does it make you angry that the state makes laws to control you and punishes you for breaking them? Of course not. You recognize this as necessary, at least I hope! Those rules and the state laws are to protect you as well as others.

If I read you right, you have created and worship a god of anarchy. Your god is there to reassure you that you are right. Your god is there to inspire you, to make you feel good about yourself. But He never says your are wrong. If He did, He would then be a bad god. But, but, but--what if--just what if -you were wrong? How would you ever know? You god is there validating you all the time and never correcting?

Of course, it is ok to make up any god you like. You can make up a god like that. You can also bash false teachers who have come in the name of Christ. However, if I had my druthers, I wish you would stop denigrating the true God who has rules of decency. Him--you don't know. Why not leave Him alone. Pick on the evil acts of men. Of course if these men are like you, they won't hear your complaint. Why? Because their god never corrects them either. They can only be right.

Then on another level, speaking of those "wonderful men of the cloth" (not serious you realize) you state:



PREACHERS

I am just sort of kind of thinking that you might be possibly overstating this just a tiny bit.

No question the religious teachers are sometimes bad guys. Again, they don't really teach what God says though. They teach what people want to hear. On some levels it is that everyone else but them is wicked. Others want to hear how good they are and how much God loves them and wants to prosper them so send your money to them, right???? Of course I agree with you here, you would think people would read the book and see that it does not say anything like what they teach. I am shocked how some do not seem to have enough sense to know they are being misled.

However, in your highly judgmental way, you are painting everyone with the same brush. All atheists are not wicked. All professing Christians are not wicked.


REGARDING JUDGMENT

All that said, and all that understood--think. Is it possible you might be wrong about this issue of judgment? There is judgment every minute of every day. All paths don't lead to the same place. If you go the wrong way, you get lost. If you make an error on your checking account, you pay the price. If you commit a crime, you pay the price. We understand that for every aspect of life. But you think that a real God would be so stupid as not have a judgment. There is no cost to wrong living? I actually thought you were smarter than this. Certainly your god isn't.

The God of the Bible is true. He is real, and there is a place for rules. There is a place for discipline. There is right and there is wrong.

Give is some thought, but not angry knee jerk stuff, try to understand the principle I am speaking about.

Art

Talk about condescending. Go ahead and feel sorry for me, but, read the news my friend. Do people want to do these things? Most would say no, but without law, they do commit these things. In fact they do them with the law present.

Our nation was founded on Biblical principles as was Europe and in fact most of the world has some exposure to God's way. The further we get from the principles of the Bible the more brutal we become.

Go to primitive tribes in Africa who never heard of the bible. They kill pillage and eat one another. That is where we will head if we don't follow God's principles in the Bible.

In your question to me, you skipped a few things didn't you. You did not mention lying, or stealing. Haven't you ever committed one of these things? Or are you perfect because of the spirit that is in you? That spirit never wanted a woman who belonged to someone else?

You think that man is inherently good. I don't. I have looked in me, and I have acted in self interest and without love toward others. I admit it. But, you don't. That is interesting to me.

Art

Thanks for your post.

In your search, what have you learned? What is God really like?

Art

Notice that you said that you did not judge, but you did judge. You condemned me to having a condescending attitude. I really didn't. I wrote with conviction, and I can understand that you could think I was condescending. I don't think for a minute that I am better than you. Quite the contrary. However, I do think that my conclusion is better than yours. It is not mine. It is Biblical.

See, I thought like you once. I have studied for decades, and now have a biblical view. The Bible does not support your view, and I support its view.

Consider how you spoke of logic and we don't need to follow external rules. Logic follows a certain form. In other words, If this is true, then something else can be deduced from that first truth.

So, where does the first truth come from? You seem to think that it is inherent in us. I claim that it is not in us. I claim that while there is a spirit in us, it is not the source of truth. It cannot be trusted to always be right. Thus, we cannot always trust ourselves.

Vandersloot? did what he thought was right. Hitler did what he thought was right.

We need external proven values to live by, not just ones we create because of the way we feel. The government realizes this and they set rules for society. Why people think that we don't need external rules is beyond me. Of course we do. We can trust our feelings, they are all over the place and change when our circumstance changes.

So, I hope you won't take any offense, but will rather see that there is some legitimate logic in this point of view.

Art

This can become a very deep and complex subject. For interest's sake, however, and with the understanding that I come from a biblical view, I want to make a comment.

the Bible does explain that within the human brain God has placed a spirit element that gives mankind intellect far above the animals that sometimes have much larger brains. For example:

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

In other words, we can relate to and communicate with other human beings like we do because of this spirit we have in us. We know the things that take place in other people's minds, but we don't know what takes place in God's mind without His spirit.

By this human spirit that we have, we are actually spiritual beings. Some people like for example, the self realization fellowship and other Indian religions worship this spirit in us. They meditated and try to become at one with it. But it is not God.

When a person dies this spirit goes back to God who gave it.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Further, at death, this spirit is no longer active. There is no more conscience thought then.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

My point is that there are no real values that come from this spirit by itself. Even the human conscience that is associated with this spirit can be programed to believe evil is good.

Thus, having a spirit, feeling that spirit, and so on is of little real value by itself. It is just a spirit in a man. It gives us intellect, the ability to introspect and even question our own motives. In this we are in God's image. But, we are not in His image morally or ethically. Because as humans we can shape and mold our own conscience, the spirit itself is of no permanent lasting value, and ultimately can be and will be destroyed if we are wicked.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (spirit): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Hell is actually the lake of fire, the second death, not the ever burning hell of Dante's Inferno, and Catholic fame.)

I hope I can make this clear and understandable. We can feel spiritual because of this spirit in us. However, the intellect it provides does not automatically lead to any truth. That must come from an external spirit which is the Holy Spirit of God. Then we can know the things of God.

But, here is the rub. There is another spirit who is the prince of the power of the air. Because we have a spirit, we can tune into that spirit. We can be led like the ancient primitive Aztecs to tear out the hearts out of their victims in the belief in our spirituality. The American Indians believed the spirit was smoke and they lit tobacco. Hitler was a devout occultist and misled millions. Popes tortured and killed millions thinking they were spiritual.

So, the spirit is in us. It makes us spiritual beings, but without definitions, we can make up anything we want. To me this is a great danger. This is the choice Adam and Eve made. They decided for themselves what was right and wrong. Our modern day world is the result of that continuing mistake. The tragic misuse of the Bible, and the torture of others in the name of God it all comes from us choosing what is right from wrong, and not following the rules God said to follow.

Thus, people can claim to be spiritual, but they can justify stealing if they get hungry enough. They can claim to be spiritual and ignore the needs of the hungry. They can justify taking another person's mate if they don't think that they are being treated right. We can do all this stuff and believe that we are spiritual. We think we are actually doing good.



Yes, they can and they do exactly this. They can choose for themselves. It feels heady. If feels superior, but, the results are almost always negative whether the person is religious or not. Just look at our world. Just look at the choices we have made in our own personal world. What is humanity's score?



But, they are limited by other things. They are limited by the fact that they have human nature. We are selfish by nature and will always tend to act in our own self interest. We will excuse our selves and justify ourselves and think we are spiritual -- we are good when we do it.

We are limited by the fact that there is a spirit in this world that is evil and when we become angry, hostile and rage, we tune right into that spirit and become capable of horrible crimes.

We are limited in the extreme by believing this entire idea. As Bloom wrote in his famous book, The Closing of the American Mind, once we open our minds to think that all the other man made cultures, religions, and moral ethical standards are legitimate and of equal value, we automatically close our mind to ever finding what is true!

But, there is truth. There is a moral right and wrong, and on our own we cannot find it. On our own there is no certainty.

Give it some thought those who might read this post.

Art