I agree with you, but what about seeking clarity? Not that I think Funches is doing that, but rather that we can seek clarity on subjects. Then there is being ready to give an answer to those who ask. There may be an application there.

There is a place too for iron sharpening iron.

Art

Me too--the Billings Dreamer

Art

I agree, it will die, but I am convinced that the atheists have made much more of a contribution than you admit. There are hundreds of books out now, teaching that Jesus did not exist and showing apparent contradictions in the Bible. The belief that the founding father had that God was to be a part of government, but that religion was not, has been reversed. Now people actually believe that the founding fathers intent was not to include God in our country's governance. We must teach evolution, and can't teach creationism. We are pushing God out of the country and the thoughts and minds of its citizens. Celebrities are challenging things publicly. I remember hearing of one lady accepting an award and stating that there would be no thank you Jesus, but rather, she earned it and it was her god. Bill Mayer, has done a lot to promote anti Bible and anti God thinking, and it is becoming so widespread that I personally believe it will not be long until those who profess Christianity will be a laughing stock.

Atheists are not hiding. Many atheists have become radical and assertive, and now are beginning to replace the fundamentalists in their fervor to convert others.

It is interesting, but painful for me to watch.

I love the God of the Bible.

Art

Thank you for the refreshingly honest and sincere post. Forgive me for deleting some of it for brevity. I do want others to read this, and see your honest evaluation.

After stating that you knew a number of non believers in the community you grew up in and they were as decent (actually more decent to me because they were not hypocrites) as the believer, you go on to say:



Of course I totally agree with you. I could not teach their religion. It is full of holes, and makes no sense. It cannot be supported by the Bible. In fact, the Bible condemns their beliefs.



Here is where we part. I don't understand what makes you think the Bible's history if not valid? Perhaps you could not answer the questions. I would be very interested in the questions that you could not answer. What are they? --- just a couple at a time thanks!



I have never seen the Bible in conflict with science, except when Science did not know the earth not set on top of something, and was round, when the bible said this was the case thousands of years before science discovered it.

In this idea of yours, you would like to make up a religion that fits you. To me it would be you building your own mythology. I understand your angst with the religious community, but where would truth be in all that you created? How do you know it is the truth? Is it just what you feel? Or, is it just what you want? It becomes so subjective.

What are you commandments? None? Have all the sex you want? You understand my point. I don't think you will ever find a higher code of morals than that in the commandments.



Of course it is not. The idea that we can force our religion on others, or that our beliefs make us superior to to others is the basis for so much evil in the world. Witness the Islamic terrorists. What could be worse? Only the crusades and inquisition. Hitler was religious--a believer in the occult.

You never see this in the New Testament of the Bible. I have seen people turn on their own family. They order their members to ostracize loved ones. It is nuts. But it is not in the Bible.

I am not saying that God is a mush mush God. He is not mocked. He punished, and He rid a corrupt people out of the land because they cast their children in the fire to worship their god, but that was done in love. Further, people don't even understand God's plan. They don't know that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, those of the flood and so on will live again, and get a chance to do it right.

They don't know the bible or the God of that bible even though they teach it, as you say, and said very well, they simply chose to believe it, not because they proved it. And the bible tells us to prove all things and hold fast what is true. But they start finding things that are true and they contradict what they believe, and so they feel they must stamp it out.

This is what Paul did before his conversion. It is in everyone of us to a degree. We all have the defense mechanism and we will hurt others to protect what is ours. That is human, not God like, and not what the Bible advocates.

So, give me a question I can't answer, so I can do down the path you went.

art

A clarification for those who choose to tithe. We are to tithe on our increase, not the gross. Taxes are a cost of doing business in our country. Tools or clothes for work, travel costs and such things can be deducted before the tithe.



I Tithe to the church I support because I believe in what they teach also, but I would tithe somewhere not just because I like the church. I do tithe because God says to. To me there is no better reason.



Right there is an indicator if tithing is right or wrong. If it reveals our humanity and flaws, it is right and good. James speaks of us looking into the perfect law of liberty. God's law is like a mirror. We look into it to see our flaws. That is the point of the law. It is not to save us, but to condemn us. It shows us what is true and right and good, and what is not.

You admit what I believe motivates others, but what they will not admit. It is the selfish side of us that does not want to tithe. I don't believe for a minute that their claim that we are not to tithe is motivated by a passion and love for God and His word. I just admire your honesty.



How can it be up in the air? The Biblical example is that God took tithes from the time of Abraham and Jacob. When He formed the nation of Israel, He did not adopt some other form of financing His work. In the New Testament Jesus had to have tithed or He would have sinned. We are told that He was our example, and we are to walk as He walked. Jesus says you should tithe but not think that you have fulfilled the law and thus omit the more important purpose of the law--which is faith. It takes true judgment and faith to tithe. It shows mercy to those who receive it. Christ says the law won't be done away until the earth and heavens are done away. He says that we are to give our tax money to the political ruler, and then says we are to give to God's what is God's. In Malachi 3, God says we rob Him by not giving the tithe, and the context is Christ's second coming when He cleanses the sons of Levi. From Malachi, there is no other conclusion, that which is God's is the tithe.

Then, lets look on the other side. The Bible never says not to tithe.

Is this question really up in the air?

{quote]
the main point is that "god likes a cheerful giver". don't give if it's only out of obligation or guilt. give because you realize god's providence and love for you and give joyously out of that. there are plenty of people my church can help with my 10%, and i entrust them to use it well with god's guidance.
i don't think a Christian should tithe because you "have to". do it because you "want to" and it takes time to get to that point in your faith where you can do that. I just got there, and i'm still learning to enjoy it. that's $300/month i could be spending on me.


I do say to give it out of obligation, even if you don't feel like it. We don't automatically feel good about doing everything we are commanded to do. We are to become like Christ, and the scriptures say to put on Christ. We have to start by doing it, and then the understanding comes later.
A good understanding have all they that do His commandments. Psalm 111:10.



I ask you to consider this. Would you use this language in regard to any other aspects of God's law?

I don't think a Christian should not worship others God's because we have to
I don't think we should not murder because God says we must not
I don't think we should not bear false witness because God says we must not.
I don't think we should not steal because we have to not steal

You understand the point. We have been sold a bill of goods. We have been taught that we are to only give to God what we want, not what He commands. Somehow, we have the idea that God doesn't have any requirements of us. None!

That is a blatant lie. Christ said we only abide in Him if we keep His commandments. He said we should tithe and not think we can omit the other stuff because we do.



It really should not apply, but again, it can depend on how things are structured. Biblically, God required three tithes from the Israelites. The first one was dedicated to the priests, or the ministry if you will. It was for the Levite, and service of the temple. For this reason, I would give my entire tithe to the work of the church which is preaching the gospel around the world.

The people were to save an extra tithe for the poor. Thus, in practical fact, they gave 3.3 % extra a year for the poor. This was a national "poor tax."

Giving to the poor in Haiti falls under this part of God's law. However, our people in America for example pay far more than that in welfare and social security. I think in the UK it is even more. Thus, this fills our obligation in that regard.

I now function as the devil's advocate. Kidding

Since the Church today does not recognize these differences in the tithe, and they don't administer it the way that God said, things can get a little messy. For example, consider that if you were to tithe to the ministry and they used that money for helping others in haiti, then your contribution can fall into the right category and do the same thing.

See what I mean, it gets messy because men are involved and they changed things from what the Bible actually says, so you will have to personally decide about this one.

Art

Could you explain where I missed this. It is actually hard to know what your questions are. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone can answer the questions because I think that they are not real questions. They are rhetorical so you can mind "F" people.

To me, the way the question is worded, you included the creation question, and you compared it to God. Wasn't the question something like, if our universe was created, then wasn't He created?

If, in answer I said, no, then explained that God had eternally existed, and that our world did not come from nothing, but was actually created from a piece of His eternal world, why doesn't that answer it?

Art

Do you like regular or crunchy? I usually like regular but ya know, sometimes crunchy just has a real appeal. How about you?

So, If I get you right, you see Christianity as more than one of a number of different products on the religious market shelf--regular, stale, militant, fundamental, heretical, or maybe, just crunchy.

People can shop for the religion or church that agrees with them. It depends on what they feel like choosing. Thus, your question does play into my reason for posting.

My reason was actually directed to those who profess Christianity. Consider that Jude said to earnestly strive for the faith once delivered. What is that faith?

It certainly is very distant from what we see today. The faith has evolved, adapted, and modified itself so that it might not be recognizable to the original Christians. In fact, it might be on the shelf, and look so outdated, so unattractive, and so primitive that no one would ever want to choose it.

The ancient faith did not try to change the world through politics. It was one in which the people sincerely sought to change themselves as they looked forward to a time when Christ would return and take over the governments of this world.

They did not try to force conversions on people. They did not kill, torture, or threaten anyone like in the inquisition or crusades.

They did not hold rallies, marches, or economic boycotts to protest the sins of those outside the church.

The ancient faith was not focused on how enjoyable their religion was, but were focused on seeking the truth and living that truth in spite of persecution or even death.

The ancient church sincerely studied to know the Scriptures, and be assured they were not misled.

The ancient church did not think that religion was about them. It was not about how they felt. It was about the Almighty God, and fulfilling His plan for mankind.

The church has evolved. Most posts so far, seem to think that this is a good thing. I actually question if it is a good thing. For example, Jesus said when I return will I find faith on the earth.

Jesus did not mean, would He find people who believed on Him. There are millions who believe on Him. In fact those who believed on Him in His day, sought to kill Him. (comp Jn 8:31 and jn 8:40.)

He knew that people would believe on Him. They would sign tracts and so on, but His question was would they believe Him? Would He find "THE" faith when He returned. Would He find people who were living true to the faith?

It is a legitimate thought

Art

What I want to know is can anyone be delusional without describing God?

I and going to take a risk here and say, ah, er, ah YES!

Art

Here is part of an article by by Audrey Barrick of the Christian Post Reporter, Tue, Dec. 04 2007 09:34 AM ET

I am asking Christians--What do you think? Is this the direction we are moving in? Is it a good move or a bad one? Can we, should we, do we have the right to redefine Christianity?



Doesn't this sort of sound like many of the views on this forum?

Art

Lots of big words there my friend, but I honestly can't make much sense of it. I get the impression that you believe I am judgmental, elitist, or are condemning others for not tithing. I am not doing any of that. I only quote scriptures to support that God's system is to tithe.

Speaking of your wording, however it sounds very personal to you, like you are not trying to speak for the rest of us to understand.

One thing that stands out, however, is that you don't quote any scriptures. By that, what you say is simply your opinion. I know it is the opinion of many others here. I know it is taught in the churches, but so are other lies.

God does not say that the law is done away. He says the opposite that it won't be done away until heaven and earth are done away. He says it is now being written in our hearts and minds. He says we are to serve in the spirit and not the letter.

Serving in the spirit does not mean that we don't do the physical. It means we do the physical but we do it understanding God's intent and purpose.

I think I would like to conclude with some human reasoning. Consider that all the professing Christians on this site would agree that we should give to God. We all agree that we have received freely, but we understand that it costs something for other to give us this gift freely. Further, we see that Christ gave us everything--His entire life.

That said, what should we give? So, many demand that no legal amount be stated. They believe that this is against God's freedom in Christ.

Just for a moment, lets all consider that is is true. We don't have an obligation to give any specific amount. Ok, then what amount do you think we should give?

The amount God said in the past was 10%. That is the amount that Israel paid, the disciples, paid, and the amount Christ paid.

With that background, what should we give? Why not give the amount God thought was a good number. He picked 10. What percent you you think is a good percent. What would you recommend?

I would recommend the amount God thought was a good one. You are welcome to choose what ever amount you want. We are all free to give what we want. I am saying to give what God says is the right amount, not what we think in our own minds.

What would ever possess us to think we know better than God?

This is the height of arrogance, not me saying we should give 10%. It really is all backwards if you can hear it.

Walk as He walked my friend, and you won't stumble.

Art

"does" the same logic apply to the creator?

The problem here is one of assumption. Funches assumes there are only two possibilities, like the Pharisees who tried to trap Christ giving him the only two alternatives they could think of. But, he errs not knowing the scriptures.

In this case, the answer is neither of these two options he attempts to give us.

The universe did not pop out of nothingness. It was created from something that already existed. God is spirit and He lives in a world that is spirit. In a similar way that we can change matter to energy, God changed energy, or spirit to matter in an explosion so magnificent that it sent galaxies spinning into empty space at millions of miles per hour.

Proof for Bible readers:

WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD BY LOOKING AT THE CREATION
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED OUT OF SPIRIT.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED OUT OF THE SAME MATERIAL GOD IS COMPOSED OF
John 4:24- God is spirit...
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible...

Art

IS TITHING A COMMANDMENT?
Yes, Tithing is not called a commandment. It is in the category of a statute, but then all the law is commanded by God. All of it hangs on the commandments to love God and love toward neighbor. Don't be fooled. Tithing is not God's suggestion.

SOOOO RAPPED UP IN LEGALITY?
You sir, are sooo rapped up in illegality. You reject God's law, and He says that if you do, he will reject you. The example for Israel was written to us at the end of the age.

IS THE LAW OUTDATED?
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You say the law is out dated. But, Jesus says it will not pass until heaven and earth pass. Mal 3 speaks of us robbing God with our tithes just before Christ's second coming. Further, the Scriptures reveal a priesthood in the future kingdom on earth. It will be supported by Tithes. It is God's system and God does not change, Mal 3:6, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, Heb 13:8.

IS TITHING MY PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW?
Your position is the personal one. It is just your opinion. I am stating what the Scriptures state. You cannot point to one single verse that says Tithing is done away in the New Testament. The issue of Circumcision required a church conference. Do you think that something as big as tithing would be done away, and there would be no reference to it in the Bible? Jesus actually said that we should tithe:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: THESES OUGHT YOU TO HAVE DONE (TITHING) and not to leave the other undone.

You say we should not tithe. Jesus says we should

MY KIND OF REASONING IS WHY THERE ARE FEW GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT TODAY?
It is the opposite my friend. God gives His spirit to those who obey Him, not to those who do not obey Him. There is so little evidence of God in the world today because those who profess to believe in Him are not faithful in obeying Him.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

WHY PEOPLE CANNOT STAND CHRISTIANS
The reason people cannot stand Christians is because they teach that everyone has to become a Christian or else they will burn forever in a terrifying hell fire. Then, those same Christians are hypocrites. They say they love Jesus, but don't live the way Jesus lived.


Art

I LOVE YOUR WISDOM HERE BUT WILL YOU PERMIT ME TO JUST SAY SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN DYING TO SAY, SOMETHING REALLY STUPID?

ok, here it is.


I finally figured out why a subject like this would be brought up on this site: It is this


They misunderstood the name of this site. they thought it was

Just say High!

Nuts throw the tomatoes, I deserve it.

Sorry,


Art

I love your cat, but you have to keep him--opps--or her

Art

Of course you have been given free will to chose, but I predict that before it is all over, you will say, I made a bunch of wrong choices. You don't have to make those wrong choices. The Bible gives you the answers to every question, and it gives the history of those who went a different way. You could benefit from its experience.

You know you can fix a car without ever reading any instruction book. You can diddle around, poke at things, and sometimes fix it. Most of the time if you don't really know what you are doing you do damage. Ultimately you take it to a mechanic who knows how it works.

It is the same with the Bible. It is God's instruction book. It is not telling you "don't think" It is tellomg you to think. Think past your greed. Think past your sex drives. Think past your selfishness. Think! Study life, learn from others, then make your decision and educated one. The problem today is that people want to cast out the bible and then make decisions. It always leads to painful results.

Best to you my friend, watch out for the speed bumps in life.

Art

My friend, you don't know my God, and so you speak with out knowledge. The God of the Bible states that the wages of sin is death. It is not immortality in eternal suffering. That dear friend is a fable created by Dante in his Greek play called the inferno.

It has been pounded into the brains of millions, and even you believe that is what the Bible says. Sad,

Art

The Sabbath is a shadow of things to come, not things done away:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body "IS" of Christ.

The word "IS" should not be there. It is not in the original. Thus, we are not to let anyone judge us in the way we keep God's days but the body of Christ---His church.


Art

I never said that Satan can't go back to heaven. Just that he was cast back down to the earth. He is no longer able to hold a position of power and influence in heaven. At one time he had such a position. As Ezek states, referring to the king of Tyre, the words lift to speak of the devil who was the real power behind that throne. He writes:

eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

At one time Satan was one of the covering Cherubs. He had a position among the leading angels in heaven. He lost that in the great war. And he lost his power to ever destroy the earth again.

In Job it states that on a particular day, the sons of God, the angels, appeared before God and Satan was among them. I think that the angels appear before God on the days that are commanded assemblies for us. We appear before God and so do they.

Satan lost that first war. He is restricted in the power he is able to use in this life, but his proclivity seems to be to want to ascend and attack God's throne. Hence, some think the tower of Babel was inspired by his mind for this purpose. Further, at the end of the thousand years, Satan is released and he directs his forces to attack God's throne in Jerusalem Rev 20.

So, what about the final casting down of Satan?

The 12th chapter of the book of revelation is a brief history of the church and Satan's attempt to destroy her.

JERUSALEM ABOVE IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL INCLUDING CHRIST
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

SATAN TRIES TO THWART GOD'S PLAN FOR CHRIST'S BIRTH
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Satan has all the nations. He is over them and that is why he could offer them to Christ. The devil is thus shown with the seven heads of the beast and the ten toes of Daniel. He is the power behind those kingdoms that culminate with the final beast power.

THIS SPEAKS OF THE DEVIL IN TERMS OF THE TIME THAT THE HE ORIGINALLY ATTACKED GOD'S THRONE
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Now the devil tries to kill Christ when He was born. This refers to Herod's attempt to kill Him,by killing the babies.

CHRIST LIVES, DOES HIS WORK AND ASCENDS TO THE FATHER
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

NOW THE FOCUS SHIFTS TO THE CHURCH BACK ON EARTH--SHE IS ALSO A WOMAN IN SYMBOL AS THE PHYSICAL REPRESENTATION OF JERUSALEM ABOVE BUT ON THE EARTH
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Using the principle of a day for a year, Ezk 4:6?, the earth helps hide the woman so that she is not completely destroyed during the terrible middle ages. This take the church from 325 to 1585 up to through the protestant reformation where there is again a certain freedom of expression allowed.

NOW THE STAGE MOVES TO THE END OF THE AGE & the final war
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan has accused the brethren for nearly 2,000 years. The people of God have overcome him. They are not overcome by him. They don't somehow slide into the kingdom. They work to overcome sin, human nature, and the devil.

THE SAINTS OVERCOME THE DEVIL EVEN RESISTING TO THE POINT OF DEATH, UNLIKE US TODAY WHO WANT TO SLOP AROUND WITH THE TRUTH
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

NOW HE IS CAST OUT PERMANENTLY, AND THERE IS VERY LITTLE IIME UNTIL THE END
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiter's of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

ONCE THIS WAR HAPPENS, WHICH HAS NOT OCCURRED YET, BUT WILL OCCUR JUST BEFORE THE TRIBULATION--THE DEVIL PERSECUTES THE WOMAN
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

THIS PERSECUTION IS ON THE CHURCH AND IT IS CALLED THE GREAT TRIBULATION IN OTHER PLACES. IT IS 3 1/2 YRS LONG THAT IS WHY THERE IS LITTLE TIME.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

GOD HAD PROMISED PROTECTION FROM THIS TRIBULATION TO ONE OF THE FAITHFUL END TIME CHURCH ERAS

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

NOW WE SEE GOD PROTECTING THEM
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

They are taken to a place on this earth. It is not a rapture to heaven

NEXT SATAN GOES AFTER THE PART OF THE CHURCH THAT WAS NOT FAITHFUL
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

WATER IS A MASS OF PEOPLE THUS A FLOOD IS AN ARMY
Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

GOD OPENS THE EARTH AND SWALLOWS THE ARMY LIKE HE DID WITH THE ARMY THAT PURSUED ISRAEL IN ANCIENT TIMES-- REMEMBER THOSE THINGS ABOUT ISRAEL WERE WRITTEN FOR THOSE AT THE END OF TH AGE
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

SATAN GOES AFTER THOSE WHO WERE NOT PROTECTED
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the remnant of the church. They are those in the next era who are lukewarm, They are those who have been affected by the apostasy at the end of the age.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

TO THIS CHURCH GOD SPEWS THEM INTO THE TRIBULATION
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,

IN THE BIBLE GOLD IS A TYPE OF SPIRICUAL CHARACTER. FIRE IS A TYPE OF TRIAL OR TRIBULATION
that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

NOTICE HOW THE CHURCH IS CHARACTERIZED
these are they Which keep the commandments of God,

So, for all those who have been decieved by the devil to think we don't have to obey God, this is telling. First of all, these are those who keep the commandments. Not those who don't keep them. Second, they are punished. Why? Because of the half hearted way they keep the commands.

Everyone who might read this, give it some thought.

Next is the second part of the definition of the church:
They have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This does not mean that they just believe in Christ and testify that He is the Messiah. The testimony of Christ is prophecy. These people understand the prophecies.

Rev 19:10 I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

So, there you have it, like it or not. Satan can go before God in heaven, but He has been stripped of his power to attack God's throne.

He will finally be cast out entirely just before the tribulation starts. It is our generation. So, everyone, fasten your seat belts please,

Art

It propagates a lie. I remember reading a book about kids when I was in charge of youth activities once. The author described a sunday school class in which the teacher asked the kids to draw Jesus on the cross. One young boy drew a picture of bugs bunny on the cross.

You think all is not damaging? Of course it is. Think about Christmas. We teach the children about Jesus, We mix him us with Santa and then they find out santa is not true, and today millions of people think that Christ doesn't exist eaither. Don't you understand why God is so agaist mixing His truth with such error.

In the minds of millions Jesus Christ is no different than Santa and the easter bunny. He is just a mythological figure dreamed up by men.

You want to propagate this? Do you want to continue the lie when Jesus said he would be in the grave three days and nights, and according to the Easter tradition, you can only get 2 nights and one day?

You want to mix truth and error? But what about God's word? He says:

sa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You are saying that which is evil is ok. You are saying that which is darkness has some light.

It may be sweet to you, but it is bitter to God.

Show me a verse in which God says it is ok to worship Him the way pagans worshiped their god.

But, you don't have to. I see that you have made your decision that it is ok to mix these things. I know it is not motivated by scripture. I know it is not from the spirit of God. He does not want us to mix these things.

So, in that context, you have always been very sincere and honest in your posts. What is actually and truly motivating you to make this deciion?

Art

Hi Miles, I am not making myself clear. You and I agree that the Passover is the 14, and the 15th is the first high day beginning the feast of unleavened bread. They are separate observances. The only tiny issue I have is what they are sometimes called in the Bible.

If God says that these are my feasts, and then He defines the Passover, that means the Passover is one of His feasts, not that it is a high day or holy day, or commanded assembly or anything like it. It is a feast. They eat it.

All I was saying was that the Jewish people sometimes called the Passover by the term, days of unleavened bread. The reason is because they ate unleavened bread on that day. As you quoted:

Matt 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Yahshua, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

This first day was actually the 14th day, the Passover proper, a day of preparation.

But, confusing matters, they also called the entire 7 days of unleavened bread the Passover.

Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

All I meant by my other post was that while these days are entirely separate according to the scriptures, perhaps because they are so closely associated with one another, God Himself seems to call the entire period the Passover just like they do in Luke 22:1. I say this because Deuteronomy 16 is not talking about the Passover proper. It does not include the literal Passover on the 14 day. It is speaking of the three pilgrimage feasts, the first one of which is the first day of unleavened bread, the 15th day of the first monty. For that reason, God says:

Deu 16:1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the PASSOVER unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.

God brought them out on the 15th not the 14th, but He calls the time they came out the Passover.

Deu 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

Passover was a domestic sacrifice not a temple one. Thus, this is speaking of the sacrifice of the first day of ULB. We can be certain of that because it is from the flock and herd. The herd is bovine. It is oxen, not a sheep or goat. This means that God is not speaking about the Passover proper, the 14th that required only a lamb or goat.

Deu 16:3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

Thus, we see it is the first day of unleavened bread, and they are to eat the bread seven days. But still God called called it the passover. Continuing the example:

Deu 16:5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:

But the Passover was to be sacrificed within their gates. Thus this is referring to the offerings given on the first day of Unleavened bread, but it is called Passover.

Deu 16:6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

Here again, this cannot refer to the Passover proper, but is the first day of Unleavened bread. The Passover proper is sacrificed at ben ha arbyim, between the evenings. This is saying to do it at sunset. It is the 15th but is still called Passover.

Deu 16:7 And thou shalt roast (cook) and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.

Again, this can't be the Passover proper because the word roast is really cook or boil, and God says not to boil the Passover proper. So, its not Passover, but is called passover.

Deu 16:8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

So, the fact that they were to keep 6 more days of unleavened bread shows that God has been speaking about the 15th day, the first day of unleavened bread all this time, but calls the entire 7 day observance the Passover.

Do you see what Point I make? I am not saying that the Passover is any other day than the 14th. I am not saying that the Passover is a holy day. It is a day of preparation. I am not saying that the days of ULB are any other than the 15th through 21st.

It is absolutely clear to me that the Bible separates these two observances in terms of what is to be done on them, but some times the Bible calls the entire period of the days of unleavened bread the Passover.

All I am saying is that I cannot fault the Jewish people for calling the days of unleavened bread the Passover because the Bible actually does it too.

It is a miniscule point, but every point of truth is important.
My only reason for the post was just a clarification, and it seems I have confused you.

Art