Incorrect.

Intervention - 1.The action or process of intervening.
Intervening - 1.Come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.

For God to "intervene" in something God would have to "possess" a person and or "force" them to do or not do the action(s).

Even God giving us laws and rules is not intervening. For we still have the ability to do or not do them. We are not "forced" you still have the choice.

if you do a thing...

did God intervene in the flow of life.(he stands with you)

Or did you, by your free will, intervene.

If it was you that intervened...

would God be pleased with it?

Your statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Intervention - 1.The action or process of intervening.
Intervening - 1.Come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.

Life is cause and effect.

Play with fire, get burned. You slide a knife on you, you will get cut, ect.

The ONLY way YOU would even be able to "intervene" is if our lives were set in stone, wrote in a book, we had a "destiny", ect.

When you do something in your life, you've not intervened on anything, for what you did is now part of your life, it was your choice.

And God standing with you is not intervening, God created us to be his people. That would be like saying because the president was standing next to you he was taking away your freedom. It would ONLY be "intervening" If God took away your free will and controlled you like a puppet.

Bold print.

What about in past days?

Egyptians? They were 'forced' by God himself, to release their slaves, via, his 'people'.

That was intervening.

The Great Flood - the act itself, was intervening.

Sending Jesus to Earth to 'cleanse' us of our sins - that was intervening.

Or am I somehow mistaken? o.o

So, the act of murdering another person is not intervening, you were 'destined' to die by their hand?

No, again "intervening" would be God taking away someone's free will. Are you "intervening" in your childs life when you tell him not to do something, or ground him for doing something, or make him do something like clean his room? No, you're not "intervening" you're instructing.



Howso? That was God cleansing the world of it's evil. Was starting over on the world so to speak. It took no one's free will away, nor did it force someone to do or not do an action they didn't choose to do themselves.



No, sending Jesus was fulfilling a promise, a prophesy. Was done so we could have eternal life through him making it more simple and prodcutive. In the days sacrifices were accepted for forgiveness there was a limitted amount of people on this world. It would be very sensless and impossible for that form of forgiveness to be continued today. How many millions of people are their in this world? For this particular discussion, less just say 20 billion. I know that's not the right now, but for this discussion it will work. Now assuming each and every one of those people did just say one sin a day. That would be 20 billion different animals that would be sacrificed daily for forgiveness. How long do you think this world could sustain that?

No it's not "intervening". And no you were not "destined" to die by their hands. Sorry if there was some form of confusion, but the ONLY way for their to possibly be any form of "intervening" would be if there was a destiny. Changing the course of that destiny would be constituted as intervening. But since our lives are not set in stone, and God does not take control of a person(s) as they were a puppet or something, their is not intervening going on.

The Great Flood was not an intervention. It was ordained by creation that a flood would occur. (Earth must have cycles else life on it dies). Raising up Noah would qualify as an intervention (Which I am glad occured else we not be here to bandy words about).

That wasn't an 'instruction' it was a demand. He then soured their lives through the use of plagues. That is definitely intervening and not comparable to a child and cleaning his room.

Difference: Child cleans his room, takes about five minutes, doesn't alter anything in his life except cleanliness over dirtiness.

Difference: Egyptian way of life was totally altered. They lost their slaves, thus, they lost their 'masons' or whatever you'd like to state they were building for them. That is a total alteration of a lifestyle.

By your terms: Changing a person's free will - By demanding they change their life style, is removing their free will, although on a minuscule scale in comparison to what he could have done.

..I still think it was beyond necessary to murder the first born children.



While I will agree with you, 'the land was plagued', but to say that 'all were plagued' would be unfair. The Flood itself not only removed free will, it destroyed all those who may or may not have been 'tainted' in the eyes of what required said flood.

Your definition now of 'intervening' is becoming very thin. You stated that intervening would be to remove free will; IMO, death is the ultimate removal of free-will.



..you have a very odd definition of 'simple' and 'more productive'.

Regardless, I'll let you have this one; because I'd rather not debate over Jesus's purpose/promise/prophecy.

But even with Noah, it wasn't intervention. God speaks to us all if one listens with an open ear. Of course not everyday, for something like this doesn't happen everyday. If God would have say, taken Noah and his family to Heaven for the time being of the flood, that might constitute intervening, might.

So, then God has no plan for us.

Got it.

No it was a punisment.

Intervention - 1.The action or process of intervening.
Intervening - 1.Come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.

God is our creator, he is the one in control, he is our father. Just as you will or are the one in control of your child(en). What you are saying is like saying if you instruct your child to do something, you are "intervening" in their life.



The flood removed absolutely no free will. Free will is purely just an action you do or don't take. Death is not an action you choose or don't choose to take, outside of suicide of course. But other then that, you do not choose when you die or how long you live.

And who are you to say it was unfair? You are not the judge of that "fair or unfair" is totally an opinion/perception. What one thinks to be fair, another may not. And since God is the one in control, he is the one that gets to choose what is fair or unfair.



Not it's not. Once you are dead, you have no "will". You have no "desire". There is no "choice" once you are dead, for you are dead and not living. Free will or will in general only applies to the living.

Oh but a plan and a "destiny" are two different things. Not totally different, just there is a difference between the two. A "plan" is not something that HAS to happen and or will absolutely happen. It is something that one hopes to do or hopes will happen, ect. A destiny, there is no other alternative to a destiny. If one is destined to do something, it would happen no matter what. If this world ran on a destiny, it would be pointless. It would be moreorless a movie so to speak. What will happen would already be set in stone, there would be no choice.

Gods plan is absolute.

You spoke of such before.

In the sense; there is no difference, not defining anyway, between destiny and a plan.

Our terms, as you defined roughly, yes, there is a difference.

No God's "plan" is not absolute. God didn't give an exact date when certain things will happen, thus it is not absolute.

For example, say God said he will return when 90% of the world has turned away from him. There is no set "plan" or date of when this will happen, thus it is not absolute. Just when it reaches that, the prophecy will happpen.

Cowboy... you're going in circles, it's an example of how belief will stagnate the conscious and will not allow your conscious mind to address the question


if you claim that God does not intervene and that Peter does not have to be a robot zombie in order to perform miracles

Then let's take God and robot zombie out of the equation

now explain how Faith will allow Peter to walk on water ...explain it without placing God or Zombieism into the equation

What in the world are you talking about?

"faith" is not an object, it is not something substantial.

Faith - 1.Complete trust or confidence in someone or something

Notice, in SOMETHING or SOMEONE. So if Peter would have kept faith in God that he would not have sunk and or even just kept the faith that he could walk on the water in general and not sink, he would have stayed afloat as Jesus did. But Peter got scared thus obviously loosing atleast some faith in the walking on water. If Peter would have kept 100% faith in being able to walk on the water, he would not have started to sink.

And what in the world does that have to do with intervention?

one more time

Intervention - 1.The action or process of intervening.
Intervening - 1.Come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events

Using this example of Peter, for this to constitute as "intervention" God would have taken control of Peter, would have had to "possess" Peter and literally make him do this. Or "force" peter to walk on the water, which did not happen for Peter was doing it on his own free will, his own choice.

When speaking of "intervention" There is no "free will". I know you like to say there is none with God, but there is, all free will is, is the ability to choose, the ability to think for oneself.

So, then you are now admitting that God is not all-seeing and all-knowing?

..simply because 'we' do not know his plan nor this 'time' and 'place' does not mean that 'plan' is not already scheduled; via, a destiny.

(Example only)

When 90% of the world turned away.

We see this as a possibility in the next 20-30 years.

However, God's plan states it will happen in 17.5 years.

How could this be justified?

Perhaps Rome, suddenly does something to utterly rock the foundation of the Christian community; like say, idk, send an army after the Serpent Seed believers for spreading their 'heretic lies'.

After such, more and more people start to stray, those who believe devoutly all grow old, and inevitably perish.

Now, let's do this mathematically.

(Not accurate numbers mind you)

Presently: 70 billion people on earth
Christians: 36 billion (I'll state over half, just to further my point)

In the next 5 years, simply because of the Serpent Seed Doctrine itself.

2 million switch 'beliefs' but state they are still 'Christian' yet are now preaching a false doctrine of their God; thus, they would still remain away from God.

Thus this division between two of the same; causes those who were skeptical to totally refrain from entering the light.

More people begin to become Buddhist, Muslim, etc.

In 10 years.

36 Billion dropped to 12 million. You are now down to 17.(w/e)% people are still Christian.

Over 70% of the truly faithful Christians now reside solely in Rome.
Angered by such, the war begins.

Such is against faith, by the means they take.

This war would result in:

1. Christians dying. - drop the faithful.
2. War itself - drops the faithful.

..and once that numbers hit below 7 million believers.

You now have 90% population in opposition to the once widely spread religion.

Guess what?

It' be 17.5 years.

How could we have predicted such a drastic and sudden turn?

..doesn't matter, because GOD did. It's his plan.

His plan is absolute.

Whether devastating or otherwise.

Natural disasters.
Diseases.
Health (sudden) problems.
Random occurrences.

In High School.

My one friend once, literally, dropped dead. I am not exaggerating.
To this day, I've never found out what happened.
Some say his heart gave out, some say he had a concussion and never told anyone and was secretly 'leaking' blood in his brain and pop.

..but nothing concrete.

On the news, random occurrences happen everyday to people.

Struck by lightning during a bright sunny day..

Most just denote it to a few different ideas, like, wrong place, wrong time..

..but what if that was God's plan?

For them to walking in that particular spot.
Or for them not to say anything at all about a condition.
No one even saw..

..then there is no free-will.
It's just a myth.

What if what we do is already pre-ordained? ..pre-written?

Maybe God intends for us to have war.
After all, that's one way to lower our population and keep it in check.

Maybe God means for natural disasters to occur..

Tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes..

Maybe, secretly, in your DNA.

There is an expiration date for all of us.

When that moment, day, and second come.

------------------------------------------------

...how do you know?

Every preacher, from TV to Rome itself..

Has always said:

"God has a plan for all of us."

So who now are you..
..to call every one of them wrong?

FREE WILL:

It is a visage.

From the moment you are born.
Everything is decided for you.

If you are born into a Muslim family.
You will spend most of your childhood, if not your entire life being such.

If you are born into a Christian family.
Same rules apply.

Most of your youth, will be raised on whatever principles your parents have.

..if you try to run away and find a new life; via, free will.

You will be returned to your parents or, in some cultures, punished more severely.

..so, what so far has been 'free will'?
Because you can play with this or not to?

No, that's a very restricted sense of free will.

Now adulthood.

What the f*** is free will?!

You MUST work.
If you do not, what then?
Live on the streets, trying to steal, find, or beg for food.

If a Military Draft occurs..
..and you want no part in war.

Where is your free will then?

The idea of free will is soooo limited in our daily society.
That it is almost ludicrous to call it such.

Even if the eyes of God.

Free will - to me that mean EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is free of restrictions.

..and even that is not true.

I didn't say that nor "admit" that for that is not true. Again, there is no possible way for there to be a "destiny" for we have free will. We'll go along with your example of the end coming when 90% of the world has turned away from God. The time this happens is not set in stone for we have FREE WILL. God does not know what we will do or not do through our lives weather that is choosing to worship God or choosing not to, for again it is impossible. You choose your own actions when YOU feel like it. If we were programmed to do certain things or be a certain way automatically, then yes an exact date/time could be known, but would then be pointless, for we would be nothing more then a movie or a play God has written.



No, I said nothing contrary to this. A "plan" and a "destiny" are not the exact same. A destiny is an absolute, nothing can change, alter, or waver in any possible way. A "plan" happens when it happens, unless of course the plan is made with a specific time, we are not informed of a specific timing.