This line.
It's a lie against the bible itself.



..and again.

God is all knowing, all seeing.
Therefore, you can call it a plan.
But in fact, it is a destiny.
He already knows.
He has to; otherwise, the Bible is a lie.

Not true. People convert from and to Christianity and or any other belief daily. There are countless familys where they were originally say Christian eg., the parents. But the children grew up to be say muslims or buddhists, or atheist, or any other possibility you can think of.



I highly doubt that. But in the case it does, this does not rule out free will. For you still have the ability to choose differently. REGARDLESS of any punishment, you still had the ability to make this choice eg., free will. Free will doesn't mean their is no consequence to this action(s) only that you have the ability to make choice.



Oh but you do not have to work, you can live under a bridge, choice my friend. That is all free will is, is the ability to make choice.



You can refuse, you can hide. Yes there will be consequences to these actions, but nevertheless you have the ability to make that choice.



There is absolutely no restrictions on your free will. You still no matter what have the ability to make choice. The consequence and or reaction to the choice you make isn't included in free will. Only the ability to choose or not choose.

Please enlighten us with the verse(s) that state as such. We will be "judged" come the second coming. If there was destiny, what in the world would there be to "judge"? Nothing, for your entire life would have already be preplanned.



Again not true. That is what free will is. There is no possible way of knowing what will happen ahead of time when it comes to specifically this. That is why again there will be JUDGEMENT.

God is
omnipotent - Having unlimited power; able to do anything
omniscient - Knowing everything.
omnipresent - Present everywhere at the same time

But the thing is, with free will there is nothing to "know" before it happens. For it has not happened.

This is true, however, your youth was not of free will.
You were raised differently, because you were raised, period.
I'm an example of this.

..but numerous times, throughout my own life.
I was forced to do or partake in things I'd rather not.
The lack of free will was evident through out.



..you doubt that? o.O

Didn't you hear about the Muslim woman who didn't want to force marry a man and she had been beaten, tortured and etc?

..sounds like punishment for a free-will choice.



..but who wants to live under the bridge?

I want a house.
Even if I build the house from scratch.
I chop down the trees, build it.

It is still not 'my' house.

Thus, if I want to keep that house..
..well, take that up with the IRS, eh?



..and you go to jail.
Prison is the very opposite of free-will.



..but why then does almost ALL free-will have a consequence?

When does it become safe to say, such is not actually free-will?

It is merely a choice, not one solely built on free-will.

not true exactly. Even as a youth one has free will. That is why little kids hit people, steal things, ect. Just because there is a consequence for actions does not mean there is no free will. All free will is, is choice. Again regardless if there is a consequence to the action(s) you still have the choice/ability to do or not do them.



But God did not force them to marry. This discussion is on God giving us free will or not. Please keep the third parties out of this, for they are not God. Cause regardless if someone(s) took someone(s) free will away to a degree atleast, does not refute the fact that God did give them free will. And besides all that, their free will wasn't taken away. They didn't have to marry thise person, they could have taken the beating and torture. Not saying it would have been a better choice, but nevertheless they had the choice. And that is all free will is, is choice.



Tha tis irrelevant if you want to or not. The choice is still there, and ONCE again that is all free will is. Is the ability to personally choose the choices you wish to make/take in life.



Prison may take away your free will. But that doesn't mean God didn't give you the free will originally. You just chose to use your free will to place you in a position where your free will was taken away.



That's all free will is, is choice. There is always a consequence and or a reaction to every action. You make a choice to not eat, the consequence/reaction would be starvation. You make the choice to kill someone the possible consequence/reation would be to go to prison, ect. But nevertheless you had the ability to make the original action that put yourself into prison ect.

The idea that "God" is "all knowing" is an interesting one.

But I look at it this way. All knowing does not include knowing what a person with free will will do. It does not include knowing exactly what will happen either, because in reality all that exists is the present.

The future does not exist except in our intentions and dreams. Therefore it is not predetermined or set in stone. It can't be. It does not exist.

The only "time" that exists is the present. The appearance of time passing is just what we observe according to change and the law of cause and effect which can only move in one direction.

Now if God is all knowing then God would have to have eyes everywhere. So who do you think God's eyes are?

They are us. We are the eyes of God. We are the eyes of infinity.

Meh, I don't remember it off hand..

..and there'd be plenty to judge. Why?
He judges us before we are born. "We are all born of sin."

Even Christian parents who bare no child until marriage, bare a son born of sin.

He judges us before our mind's even gain functions.

So, in his mind, plenty to judge, because he is the biggest judge of all. Tis a visage.

Our actions are determined, but our thoughts are not.

Go to church - but hate church and only go because you 'fear' God.
Church is where you were destined to be that day.
A meteor hit that church.

Your destiny was to die by a rare meteor destroying a church.

Your mind, thought process, was impure.

Thus, what you will be judged on..

Rather clear-cut.



See.

Your not seeing something huge.

Plan - Decide on and arrange in advance
Destiny - Power believed to control what will happen next

God is that power.
God has that plan.

If God makes no mistakes, and is all-seeing, all-knowing.
He would not make a plan.
That would fall through.
Because God does not make mistakes, correct?

If we had free-will, you could hold no plan over us.
Because every single waking minute.
That plan would have to be altered.

So, if he has no plan for us.
Until the day we die.
Then it is our destiny to only find our plan.
In death.

And outside of your belief, then.
Our lives have no purpose.
Because we only find such.
In death.

Because that is the only place where His plan.
..and our destinies. Become clear.
Correct? Or am I being either confusing or unclear?

Very good and absolutely true. That's why the prophesies we are given are not EXACT as in the time they happen. It is only a foreseen thing to come to pass.

And is why we will be "judged" cause of our free will. It would be impossible to know what one will do in the future for one has not chose to do it or not do it yet.



God is omnipresent as well. He is everywhere at the same time. He see's you when you're sleeping, he know's when you're awake. He know's if you been good or bad, so be good for goodness sake. >.> lol sorry bout the jingle, just thought it fit quite well here lol.

So you didn't "choose" to type out what you just typed.... interesting.



Who goes to church but hates to go? Church is a place for worship and congregation. If you do not wish to worship that way or congregate that way, why would one go?



Why pass the blaim? Cause what you are saying here is if someone murders another, it was God's plan. He was destined to take that life. If he was destined to take that life, how then could he be "judged" for it? And if our lives are preplanned, why then do we live them? What would be the point in the wasting of time allowing it to play out like a movies or a play?



As far as I know, the scriptures do no say that we have a specific plan for each and everyone of our lives. And this is where doing the will of the father comes into play. If we were predestined, we would all automatically do the willl of the father. There would be absolutely no murder, no crimes, nothing foul. This place would be a paradise if we automatically did the will of the father without thought more or less, just automatically did his will.

Agreed, however, the Bible speaks of such differently.

Jesus himself 'predicted' the future on a few accounts.
Last Supper anyone?

If his son could do it, there is no logical reason to suggest that his father, who was far more powerful, could not do the same but on an even higher scale.

I mean, Jesus not only predicted that a Disciple would deny him, but that a rooster, or whatever it was, would 'caw' three times.

Jesus, in a sense, was also 'all-knowing' 'all-seeing' because he had basically already knew everything that would occur in his lifetime.

God not only created Jesus in a virgin on Earth, but he 'created' everything. From dust, from darkness, all was from him.

In that sense, we as humans, can only predict, or believe we know what will happen minutes, or hours, or in cases days from now; but to proclaim each and everyday what will happen years down the line?

Eyes everywhere? Record how many people have died just in 2011. That number is probably gigantic, now let's just 'pretend' that half of those found their way to heaven. That may be small or large in comparison, but irrelevant; since I'm taking one year out of the last 2000.

If they all now serve God, in some way shape or form; he would ultimately have an entire 'army' of 'eyes' everywhere. That wouldn't mean necessarily that his 'eyes' are through us, the living, because according to Cowboy, he plays no 'part' in our lives.

Therefore, prayers, are actually pointless, because he may hear them, but he cannot interfere on ANY level with ANY thing's free will.

So, if ALL and EVERY thing HAS free will; our destinies and plans only exist in death. Which ultimately means that life is pointless, just wait until death.

Everything between life and death is just shadows and light.

True, and glad you posted this especially in the way it was posted. This is a good example of how God can be all knowing and we still have free will. Jesus said a DISCIPLE would deny him, he did not say which one would.

And yes, Jesus is all knowing. Jesus is God, he is our God. If you'll notice when Jesus speaks of HIS father, he never says OUR father, only HIS father. That is because Jesus isn't our "brother". Jesus is OUR father, he is the one that created us. If you'll read in I think it was Genesis 2:8 or atleast somewhere around there it states "These are the days when the LORD GOD made the Heavens and Earth". LORD God would only be referring to Jesus Christ before he became specifically "Jesus Christ" in the flesh.

Cowboy..even Jesus crying ,My God, My God why hath thou forsake me is an indication that even Jesus didn't have 100% Faith in God ...which is why Peter needing 100 percent Faith to walk on water would make him a robot Zombie

everyone that have ever supposedly performed miracles in the bible has questioned God but yet they still performed miracles which is why 100 percent Faith is not needed

how in the heck can you tell that someone has 100 percent Faith unless they act like a robot zombie and can't think on their own

it's obvious you have no idea what Faith is...

JennieBean was the one that came closest to answering the question what Faith might be pertaining to science and not God but when you try to ask her questions she start talking in broken riddles ...but at least she tries to be truthful and not allow her beliefs to override her common sense

That wasn't his attempt to not alter free-will.
That was his way of proving, I am who I say I am.

If he altered free-will, he altered his own destiny.
That is to say, his designated path to 'free us from sin'.

Had that Disciple then spoke on Jesus' behalf.
We would all still be in sin.

Or so the story goes..

But had he gave him another choice, again, not altering free-will.
Since, such would have still been a 'choice'.
The outcome would have been entirely, or at best, could have been entirely different.

Had his Disciple the knowledge, it would have been him, he still would have had the choice to deny him.

Thus inevitably, once again, free-will didn't have a place.

Had he known, who is to say his choice would have truly altered?

He denied him and he already HAD the knowledge that ONE of them WOULD deny Jesus; even so, this didn't alter his way of thinking in the slightest.

He crippled to the fear of having armed men in front of him shouting 'do you' blah blah.

Whether he was clear or not, the Disciple still had 'some' knowledge of what was going to take place.

Therefore, Jesus still gave a warning. Like God does, however, like God, he was also very vague.

Our actions are NOT predestined by God.....

God gave man FREE WILL...


However,our actions are alreay KNOWN by God ...even before they

have even taken place in our earth time.



God is OUTSIDE of Time....God is Eternal...but God is even

outside of Eternity....(God created Everything including

Time and Eternity ).


God will influence...DRAW....and has even given each man a

certain measure of Faith to HELP man to know God.....but God

will NOT EVER go against man's free will.....

but again,God already KNOWS what man will do with his free

will... God even KNEW before any of us were born....God even already knew then.

God is able to KNOW all things already about our lives and what

we will do........

God knows the END from the beginning ,and the beginning from the end.


Again... God is OUTSIDE of Time.

The Scripture that says, Jesus was slain from the very foundations of the World.....


this scripture alone shows that God KNOWS all things already .


But God's knowing already about all things, still does NOT take

away from our Free will....God just KNOWS what we will do with our

free will before we even do it....even before we were born

God KNOWS....


Once again..... God is OUTSIDE of Time and is ETERNAL....

and GOD KNOWS the END already from the

BEGINNING....and the beginning from the end.... but that does

NOT mean we were Predestined .


ps...haven't had time to read all the thread yet, just in case

this has already been covered .

My point is in bold.

And it depends on your definition of 'pre-destined'.

"We are created with a purpose."

Therefore, upon being conceived, we have a destiny to fulfill.
Large or small, not my place to say; but there is 'something'.

To say otherwise, is to also say your life has no 'meaning'.
I refuse to believe that.
Because then life itself is pointless, and the only reason to 'live it out' would be because 'suicide' is a sin.

"You are destined to enter the House of God upon your death."

Again, words of the Bible.
From birth until death - we are predestined for two things:

1. To die.
2. To re-enter the Kingdom of God.

You have no free-will if you have a destiny.
Everything in between only leads you to your destiny.
Sure, you have 'choices'.
But those choices all lead you to your unavoidable and predetermined destiny.

So sayeth the Lord, so sayeth the Bible.

GOD has Created us All with a Purpose ...


but our purpose is NOT Pre-destined by God....

God just gave all a purpose and KNOWS what we will do

with that out our purpose...HOW we will carry that purpose out....

..I apologize.

But this makes no sense to me at all.

This may help.

(I checked to be sure it lines up with Scriptures before sharing.)

http://www.gotquestions.org/fate-destiny.html

..I apologize.

But this makes no sense to me at all.



That is why I edited it.. but you beat me before I was finished editing.......

See, but that explanation drives me insane.

They associate Adam and Eve to having the 'knowledge' that their 'actions' were 'bad' and 'held consequences'.

They did not know 'good from evil', because they were created without such. Thus, imo, to be 'tempted' you have to already have an established boundary that 'if' I do this 'evil' action it is against my normal 'moral' (or good) actions.

They knew not of such, until they ate from the tree; then they realized, but then it was too late.

God then banished them so that they would not eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal like 'us'; which I'm rather unclear as to 'us' was at and during that time since I don't believe the Spirit was around yet and I know Jesus wasn't yet.

Which leads me back to my age old question.

Why the tree?

It feels as though, from the responses I get and the logic I revolve around said replies.

God was just a normal being who came across this garden.
Satan, may or may not have been present; heck for all I know, they could have been 'brothers'; though I could not explain who their parents were.

God ate from this tree, that tree, than ate from the Eternal Life, the Good and Bad, etc. And maybe one gave him 'powers'.

Either way, I'm rambling, and that's irrelevant cause I'm going off course...

To say, 'Adam and Eve were not predestined to fail' is ludicrous.

Why? Without the knowledge of Good and Evil; they'd never know that truly eating from the tree was actually an action of Evil. God just said, 'Don't', and so they didn't. It wouldn't have matter if Satan came in the form of a snake, a cow, or a buffalo- Eve would have done what he asked; regardless, because even if she did say, 'But he told me not', that would be, with someone entirely dense and lacking common sense, via, the difference between right and wrong; irrelevant, because her overall 'willpower' wouldn't have had base or conscience.

On the same hand.

This is also stating that God had, in no way, the ability to foresee, predict, or had the knowledge of, Satan's intentions; removing the ideal that he is 'all-knowing'. Because even if he could not foresee Satan's intentions, for whatever reason you wish to create logic with, he should have still been able to see or predict Eve's or at best Adams next move.

Therefore, if he could not foretell the lives of the only two humans in existence; how is it in anyway reasonable to assume he can foresee ALL of our path and 'destinies'?

This frame of mind leads to one conclusion, imo.

God is a being of incredible power; however, he is a being that makes mistakes and cannot see past the present.

This would then be, as you say, free of any man of having a predestined path and/or end; but it also removes the idea that God has a plan for anyone, because he wouldn't be able to plan anything for he cannot see what we are going to do in the next five minutes, let alone the next 50 years of our lives.

IMO.

It's one or the other.

"Can't have your cake and eat it too."

..or so the saying goes.