Do you not see that the word "IF" changes the meaning of the statement?

If I were a scientist, researching a brand new theory, nothing could be proven as fact until all the data was gathered and put together (not that I believe I can prove a damned thing).

Yes...

It IS how denominations are formed.

Anyone could take any new idea and turn it into “religion”. It’s the last thing I wish to do, but can see how it easily could happen (scary).

In efforts to ”make” the actual world I experience more understandable to me, I may be totally stumbling myself, every step of the way. “Trying” to apply ideas is an artificial way of being and just ends up hurting. Truth is… I don’t know. If a forum is a place where ideas can be shared, am I welcome to share mine as they develop? Hope so.

I DON'T follow the bible. I’ve said this before. I have only mild interest in it for it’s data.

I think this is what you're probably not seeing, Funches.

It seems you peer through eyes with such complete criticism that you seem incapable of seeing any worth in any ideas other than your own (yada, yada, yada -> I know... broken record). Pointing this out, yet again, may just be my own egotistical need to be right…

Yup... It is.

So sue me.

Well... I know nothing, Funches, and I’m tired of pointing the finger at you. It only makes for more sadness.

Funches:

You seem to be going by a notion of "God" that we've pretty much always been expected to buy (based on judaeo-christian interpretations). Why not the possibility that it isn't at all what's already been decreed?

Thing is... If there's no absolute proof (in this lifetime), how can anyone say to another that the other is wrong?

If one decides not to look beyond already accepted interpretations, that's fine and dandy. But, when someone offers another possibility, why go out of your way to shoot them down, subtly and sometimes not so subtly trying to make them look foolish?

With no absolute proof immediately available, doesn't that leave space for greater possibility?

When you say I spoke of God residing in everyone's heart, etc..., I actually said IF "God" is residing in everyone's heart... You twisted it just enough to make it seem preposterous along with everything that followed.

This seems to be a futile conversation.

Funny...

My best friend just had her baby girl baptized. When she invited me, I joked with her that I had some trepidation about the possibility of getting splashed and burned by holy water.

She gets the humor.

Funny thing is... I DID get splashed!

No problems... My skin is fine.

Bottom line is, although I don't go out of my way to participate in religious ceremony, I was happy to be part of what was special to my friend. Of course, this is a personal choice. No one from my work forced me to go.

It reminds me of the time many years ago that the Veterinarian I was working for, forced us to sit through an Amway presentation. I was very up-in-arms about it because I felt it had nothing to do with our primary purpose (animal medicine) and that they only had their own MLM agenda in mind. When I stated that I didn't wish to sit through the presentation, my boss gave me an ultimatum, asking me if I wanted to continue working for him. I would have been completely content with doing something else productive while they pushed their soaps and such. It was the fact that we were being forced that pissed me off the most.

Although I sat through the presentation, about a week later, I was given the option to take either a cut in pay or sign a letter of resignation. Of course I signed away and moved on.

In the case of your "manager" and the blessing of your work-place, I would hope that you had the option to leave the area during the process and the choice to not participate.

Funches:

Because I’m at work I’ll have to find you some examples later. I actually look forward to your responses and am in a MUCH better mood today.

For now, I hope this helps describe a bit of my thinking:

If "God" really resides in every human being's heart, are we not already the physical manifestations of individual gods?

So, each time scripture speaks of the Lord (in any context), I view it from a perspective of there being a private relationship within each individual w/ his/her own higher-self (or "god"). If the “Lord” that the bible speaks of was personal and individual to each human, rather than a directive to be lived out as if under an oppressing authority, could there not be just as many gods as there are people? What if we each had a sort of invisible “tether” to higher knowing just as individual as our DNA? Nothing binding or authoritative… just a connection.

To me, each human holds full god potential without a need for any big guy in the sky, telling us what to do (although I often get blind, cranky and seem to forget this). The closest I can come to considering the idea of anything "big" or "in the sky" would look more like a collective “energy” of all us "gods", some still on our human journeys and some resting (or not resting -> who knows) at our place of understanding from the realm of full god/angel/spirit... or whatever you wanna call it. If our higher-selves guide us daily by sending impulses that cause us to pause and question our thoughts and actions and to perhaps wait for wisdom to provide understanding, perhaps our higher-selves ARE "gods" telling us what to do.

I’m just beginning to try to connect a bit of information from the bible that used to seem hopelessly fragmented and unrealistic with something that seems logically possible. I find it impossible to “believe”, based on religious interpretations that have seemed to “stick” over time, simply by virtue of mass agreement (not to mention obvious tactics of intimidation).

I'm learning that, if anything could be held "responsible" for any lack of love in my own life, I'd say it would be my own pride.

Well, Darling...

I never actually followed the bible, per se. I've read some (certainly not all of it) and, as of late, it's making much more sense to me when religious interpretation is removed. It seems to explain so much more about the directions mankind has taken through time and the history of human nature when viewed with an open mind (unencumbered by religious dogma).

Funches

If you read, actually considered and included ALL of my last post, you may have been less inclined to respond with insults describing my input as yapping.

Talk about dismissing.

Why would I wish to open up to that?

Funches

It seems like you start some threads just to wait like a spider for people to respond, so you can trap as many as you can to prove as many wrong as possible.

And in your responses, when you "include" the quotes of those to which you're responding, you conveniently leave out specific statements that might incriminate your behavior and describe how it might affect others.

This is why I say it must be a lonely place. It seems to me that there can be no real connection to other people when one is in a place of constantly putting others beneath oneself.

You can rebut all you want by putting me down, saying I hear voices and point to the delusion of and mock the other person.

It's not going to bring anything closer to any kind of sense of connection. It only further divides.

No solution….

Only more pain for self and others.
-------------------------------------------------------
I can see how this could seem that I'm coming from a Holier than Thou place and demanding that you "play nice".

Yes... There's a purpose for everything… even things that may sometimes occur to me as mean spirited.

Feels good to be right? So much so that you would first look to express ways to prove others wrong before even considering any value.

It must be a lonely place.

Not a thing disgusting about you!

I agree completely with what Abra has said. People aren't seeing you. They're seeing their own fear... Not of you at all, darlin'.

Yes...

Religion has been used to place self above others (while claiming it's doing the exact opposite). Telling others they'll surly burn in Hell for not accepting all tenants of their particular religion is little more than an expression of disdain for anyone different who will not to step in line.

I agree that the bible is not religion...

The bible chronicles the path of mankind.

The Religious have made specific, agenda-driven interpretations of the words of the bible and then have imposed their interpretations on as many people as possible, all the while insisting these interpretations are absolute fact.

To me... following blindly seems far more insane than stepping back and seeking to understand for self.

If God is within the heart of every human, some may choose to utilize the message of Jesus to connect to the fact that this already exists for all of mankind and already existed long before Jesus came to be.

I believe that every last man and woman NEVER has to "perish"... regardless of whether or not they "accept" Jesus.

I'd bet that, if Jesus was here today as a living man, he'd agree. Regardless of words that have been interpreted to mean that we MUST accept Jesus as our savior or parish, I believe that Jesus was a representation of the process that every last human ultimately faces.

What about the millions of people who haven't been exposed to the teachings of Jesus?

Do you really believe there is no "salvation" for them simply because they hadn't access to the same as you and hadn't chosen the same path as you??

Could it be that Jesus represented a way that is universal to every human being? Could it be that his message was less about following him and more about the personal journey we all must travel throughout our lifetimes?

Since you are completely married to your beliefs, of course I don't expect you to say yes.

But, why not even consider it? Would that somehow diminish your ticket into Heaven?

I'm probably just completely naive to think you'd wish to even consider these contrasting ideas.

Finally... The REAL purpose for Rohypnol, revealed!

Halle-Freakin'-lujah!

Funches Has Spoken.


I don't need to point the finger at you anymore, dear boy.

Your contribution is always valid...

Regardless of your approach.

Yes...

I will.

I hope that admitting my own error will not diminish your willingness to look at your own approach.

That's interesting, MorningSong...

Doesn't it seem that those we know who suffer the greatest are those plagued by their own past memories?

Much of these painful memories are of how one has been wronged by circumstances and people outside of self. Less admitted, inescapable memories include one's own "wrong" doings and the hurt they've caused others. One who hasn't yet been able to fully acknowledge how one's actions have harmed others seems even more caught in a web of negativity... Hiding out and placing blame outside of self. Truly, that is Hell on Earth and certainly explains the concept of sin against true self (or god).

If you see a connection to Jesus as being the ONLY way anyone can wash away these "sins", this misery, and there are millions of people on this planet who don't feel any connection to the Christian belief, how can it be that Jesus is the only way?

There has GOT to be a Universal way that doesn't exclude a single individual... A way that doesn't dictate all follow only one Religious path or any Religion, for that matter. This kind of demand only seems to perpetuate further divide. Isn't further divide the last thing we need for Humanity?

Ummm...

I believe I just admitted to doing the same.

How can that not occur as taking responsibility? What else would satisfy your apparent desire to prove me wrong?

I would hope that admitting my own error would not minimize observations about your approach.

Of course, I get how ridiculous this all is, since I'm now doing the exact thing I've accused you of.