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Topic: Do You Have The Right To Believe
CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 03/06/12 09:48 PM
By deeds and not by words can you find such. For did not Jesus become physical in defense of his Fathers House from the Thief? Or is that not in the NT? I remember something about driving the money exchangers from the temple... Is my memory then false? Which then would you believe. the many words... or the Deed? He did not physically harm any of the money changers, so still nothing besides passive.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 03/06/12 09:57 PM
I think you just missed my scriptures after the initial ones you refuted. Jesus ordering one of his Disciples to "buy a sword". An entirely passive man does not condone others to do such either. ..I did supply you proof.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 03/06/12 10:00 PM
I think you just missed my scriptures after the initial ones you refuted. Jesus ordering one of his Disciples to "buy a sword". An entirely passive man does not condone others to do such either. ..I did supply you proof. Did he say this sword would be used in defense? Or to harm another human being in general? No, there are many other uses for a sword then specifically harming another person. Could be useful for intimedition while walking around. Could be used for hunting in times of need, ect.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 03/06/12 10:06 PM
I think you just missed my scriptures after the initial ones you refuted. Jesus ordering one of his Disciples to "buy a sword". An entirely passive man does not condone others to do such either. ..I did supply you proof. Did he say this sword would be used in defense? Or to harm another human being in general? No, there are many other uses for a sword then specifically harming another person. Could be useful for intimedition while walking around. Could be used for hunting in times of need, ect. Hunting? o.O Dude. He aid this along with delivering the concept that he will soon be "arrested", which ultimately led to his "crucifixion". It was to defend themselves, not to look scary or "intimidate" and certainly not for hunting. He was telling them to arm themselves less they came for them too. He wished not for them to suffer his fate as well.

AdventureBegins Joined Tue 04/10/07 Posts: 7666	Tue 03/06/12 10:06 PM
By deeds and not by words can you find such. For did not Jesus become physical in defense of his Fathers House from the Thief? Or is that not in the NT? I remember something about driving the money exchangers from the temple... Is my memory then false? Which then would you believe. the many words... or the Deed? He did not physically harm any of the money changers, so still nothing besides passive. Passive? A passive man can not 'drive' anyone. but that is not important. Rather than bang my head into the wall I will just move on... and leave this. In driving the money changers out Jesus was not turning away from a slap. He did not in this case turn the other cheek. Did he?

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 03/06/12 10:11 PM
By deeds and not by words can you find such. For did not Jesus become physical in defense of his Fathers House from the Thief? Or is that not in the NT? I remember something about driving the money exchangers from the temple... Is my memory then false? Which then would you believe. the many words... or the Deed? He did not physically harm any of the money changers, so still nothing besides passive. Passive? A passive man can not 'drive' anyone. but that is not important. Rather than bang my head into the wall I will just move on... and leave this. In driving the money changers out Jesus was not turning away from a slap. He did not in this case turn the other cheek. Did he? I stated such earlier. He verbally stood his ground against people. No, he didn't resort to violence, but he didn't turn away either.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Tue 03/06/12 10:18 PM
By deeds and not by words can you find such. For did not Jesus become physical in defense of his Fathers House from the Thief? Or is that not in the NT? I remember something about driving the money exchangers from the temple... Is my memory then false? Which then would you believe. the many words... or the Deed? He did not physically harm any of the money changers, so still nothing besides passive. Passive? A passive man can not 'drive' anyone. but that is not important. Rather than bang my head into the wall I will just move on... and leave this. In driving the money changers out Jesus was not turning away from a slap. He did not in this case turn the other cheek. Did he? I stated such earlier. He verbally stood his ground against people. No, he didn't resort to violence, but he didn't turn away either. Ok, maybe passive was the wrong word to use. But he was not physically violent, nor did he teach to be. Not in offence nor did he in defence teach us to be violent in any form of way. He did not teach to bring physical harm to anyone again weather it be in defence or other. He did not teach to retaliate physical harm.

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Wed 03/07/12 05:55 AM
Cowboy. Turning the Other Cheek Scriptures: 1. Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. Someone, like say a child, or your wife; is getting abused/violated by a stranger (ie this case "wicked) would be defined as "defending" and "rescuing" the weak. 2. Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. 3. Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.' See this one? The watchmen has the OBLIGATION to "take a stand" for if he does not, his own blood will be sought. If you are in the position to HELP/AID/WARN ANYONE who can/will FALL victim to the WICKEDNESS of someone else, we as HUMANS, are OBLIGATED to do so. God, in the Old Testament, he held it in the same regard: 4. Genesis 9:5-6 5 And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; At the hand of every beast will I require it. And at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man. If a man was killed, the man or beast who caused the death must pay with his/its own life. God says here, "I will require the life of man." Killing or bloodshed was not always wrong. But when it was wrong, the penalty was ultimate. NOW AGAIN LET ME POINT OUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN: MURDER and KILL. Commandment: "Thou Shalt Not MURDER." Deut. 19:4: "...whoever kills his neighbor unintentionally, not having hated him in time past...". Unintentionally, not premeditated; but upon accident or the defense therein; NOT MURDER, thus as such it is FORGIVABLE. This verse also goes on to even give an example: "as when a man goes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies". You can see perfectly here. He "killed" his neighbor but he did not "murder" for such was NOT premeditated. These verses: Ex. 21:14, Deut. 19:11, Num 35:16 Give prime examples of MURDER and NOT killing. And here we go with one last example of Self Defense: Exodus 22:2 2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." ..does it get anymore obvious? No guilt - No sin - No crime. This is the foundation for what we now consider: "Self-Defense". (Maybe not the guilt part, but its stating you need not to feel guilt, not that there is no guilt.) Booyah! Not to be rude here, but sin_and_sorrow, you've found nothing of which I request. I asked for a teaching from JESUS that was anything but passive. Yes the old testament has a lot of things that aren't passive, for we were judged by our peers in that day and age on Earth when it happened. You've posted not one teaching of JESUS that supports anything but passiveness. These things you posted have been fulfilled, completed, we are no longer to do these things which you posted. These things are things of the old covenant, which Jesus again fulfilled. Cowboy by your own words is your current reasoning false. You have claimed many times that Jesus WAS from the time of Adam... Therefore every phrase, line, and jot is (by your own reasoning) from Jesus... So your WERE given the teachings of Jesus (again by your own reasoning)... Yet still you argue that it is not so. If the one be true the other is also. If the one be false so also is the other. Not exactly. Jesus was in Genesis eg., LORD God. But he was not in the form of "Jesus", he was The Word eg., LORD God. So yes Jesus was in the time of Adam, for Jesus eg., LORD God created the Earth and Heaven. AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 03/07/12 06:44 AM Edited by Sin_and_Sorrow on Wed 03/07/12 06:45 AM
AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience From what I'm grasping. Jesus, as the Word, changed his "opinions" and "views" once he became flesh. The Old Testament < The New Testament Everything prior to the New, is obsolete and "rubbish".

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Wed 03/07/12 07:04 AM
AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience From what I'm grasping. Jesus, as the Word, changed his "opinions" and "views" once he became flesh. The Old Testament < The New Testament Everything prior to the New, is obsolete and "rubbish". except according to The Book of Revelation he is suppose to come back with the sword of righteousness to slice and dice up some flesh

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 03/07/12 07:44 AM
AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience From what I'm grasping. Jesus, as the Word, changed his "opinions" and "views" once he became flesh. The Old Testament < The New Testament Everything prior to the New, is obsolete and "rubbish". except according to The Book of Revelation he is suppose to come back with the sword of righteousness to slice and dice up some flesh Must be rhetorical. From what I've been informed of recently in this thread; he was solely passive. o.o Maybe it's the noodle of righteousness. :O

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 03/07/12 07:50 AM
Cowboy. Turning the Other Cheek Scriptures: 1. Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. Someone, like say a child, or your wife; is getting abused/violated by a stranger (ie this case "wicked) would be defined as "defending" and "rescuing" the weak. 2. Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. 3. Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.' See this one? The watchmen has the OBLIGATION to "take a stand" for if he does not, his own blood will be sought. If you are in the position to HELP/AID/WARN ANYONE who can/will FALL victim to the WICKEDNESS of someone else, we as HUMANS, are OBLIGATED to do so. God, in the Old Testament, he held it in the same regard: 4. Genesis 9:5-6 5 And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; At the hand of every beast will I require it. And at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man. If a man was killed, the man or beast who caused the death must pay with his/its own life. God says here, "I will require the life of man." Killing or bloodshed was not always wrong. But when it was wrong, the penalty was ultimate. NOW AGAIN LET ME POINT OUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN: MURDER and KILL. Commandment: "Thou Shalt Not MURDER." Deut. 19:4: "...whoever kills his neighbor unintentionally, not having hated him in time past...". Unintentionally, not premeditated; but upon accident or the defense therein; NOT MURDER, thus as such it is FORGIVABLE. This verse also goes on to even give an example: "as when a man goes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies". You can see perfectly here. He "killed" his neighbor but he did not "murder" for such was NOT premeditated. These verses: Ex. 21:14, Deut. 19:11, Num 35:16 Give prime examples of MURDER and NOT killing. And here we go with one last example of Self Defense: Exodus 22:2 2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." ..does it get anymore obvious? No guilt - No sin - No crime. This is the foundation for what we now consider: "Self-Defense". (Maybe not the guilt part, but its stating you need not to feel guilt, not that there is no guilt.) Booyah! Not to be rude here, but sin_and_sorrow, you've found nothing of which I request. I asked for a teaching from JESUS that was anything but passive. Yes the old testament has a lot of things that aren't passive, for we were judged by our peers in that day and age on Earth when it happened. You've posted not one teaching of JESUS that supports anything but passiveness. These things you posted have been fulfilled, completed, we are no longer to do these things which you posted. These things are things of the old covenant, which Jesus again fulfilled. Cowboy by your own words is your current reasoning false. You have claimed many times that Jesus WAS from the time of Adam... Therefore every phrase, line, and jot is (by your own reasoning) from Jesus... So your WERE given the teachings of Jesus (again by your own reasoning)... Yet still you argue that it is not so. If the one be true the other is also. If the one be false so also is the other. Not exactly. Jesus was in Genesis eg., LORD God. But he was not in the form of "Jesus", he was The Word eg., LORD God. So yes Jesus was in the time of Adam, for Jesus eg., LORD God created the Earth and Heaven. AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience No "kill" laws were handed down to moses.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 03/07/12 07:51 AM
AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience From what I'm grasping. Jesus, as the Word, changed his "opinions" and "views" once he became flesh. The Old Testament < The New Testament Everything prior to the New, is obsolete and "rubbish". except according to The Book of Revelation he is suppose to come back with the sword of righteousness to slice and dice up some flesh Please do inform us of these verses that say he will slice and dice some flesh. Because they do not exist.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 03/07/12 07:53 AM
Cowboy. Turning the Other Cheek Scriptures: 1. Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. Someone, like say a child, or your wife; is getting abused/violated by a stranger (ie this case "wicked) would be defined as "defending" and "rescuing" the weak. 2. Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. 3. Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.' See this one? The watchmen has the OBLIGATION to "take a stand" for if he does not, his own blood will be sought. If you are in the position to HELP/AID/WARN ANYONE who can/will FALL victim to the WICKEDNESS of someone else, we as HUMANS, are OBLIGATED to do so. God, in the Old Testament, he held it in the same regard: 4. Genesis 9:5-6 5 And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; At the hand of every beast will I require it. And at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man's brother, will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man. If a man was killed, the man or beast who caused the death must pay with his/its own life. God says here, "I will require the life of man." Killing or bloodshed was not always wrong. But when it was wrong, the penalty was ultimate. NOW AGAIN LET ME POINT OUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN: MURDER and KILL. Commandment: "Thou Shalt Not MURDER." Deut. 19:4: "...whoever kills his neighbor unintentionally, not having hated him in time past...". Unintentionally, not premeditated; but upon accident or the defense therein; NOT MURDER, thus as such it is FORGIVABLE. This verse also goes on to even give an example: "as when a man goes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies". You can see perfectly here. He "killed" his neighbor but he did not "murder" for such was NOT premeditated. These verses: Ex. 21:14, Deut. 19:11, Num 35:16 Give prime examples of MURDER and NOT killing. And here we go with one last example of Self Defense: Exodus 22:2 2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." ..does it get anymore obvious? No guilt - No sin - No crime. This is the foundation for what we now consider: "Self-Defense". (Maybe not the guilt part, but its stating you need not to feel guilt, not that there is no guilt.) Booyah! Not to be rude here, but sin_and_sorrow, you've found nothing of which I request. I asked for a teaching from JESUS that was anything but passive. Yes the old testament has a lot of things that aren't passive, for we were judged by our peers in that day and age on Earth when it happened. You've posted not one teaching of JESUS that supports anything but passiveness. These things you posted have been fulfilled, completed, we are no longer to do these things which you posted. These things are things of the old covenant, which Jesus again fulfilled. Cowboy by your own words is your current reasoning false. You have claimed many times that Jesus WAS from the time of Adam... Therefore every phrase, line, and jot is (by your own reasoning) from Jesus... So your WERE given the teachings of Jesus (again by your own reasoning)... Yet still you argue that it is not so. If the one be true the other is also. If the one be false so also is the other. Not exactly. Jesus was in Genesis eg., LORD God. But he was not in the form of "Jesus", he was The Word eg., LORD God. So yes Jesus was in the time of Adam, for Jesus eg., LORD God created the Earth and Heaven. AdventureBegins is right.....first you wish to claim that Jesus as Lord God handed down those "Kill Laws" to Moses and at the same time want to claim that "Lord God as Jesus" doesn't approve of the laws that he himself handed down that makes at least two of those Trinity Gods hypocrites but both lacking in omniscience No "kill" laws were handed down to moses. And besides that, what laws did Jesus "not approve" of? Jesus wasn't here because he didn't approve of the laws, he was here to finish the remaining prophecies of the law.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 03/07/12 08:05 AM
No "kill" laws were handed down to moses. And besides that, what laws did Jesus "not approve" of? Jesus wasn't here because he didn't approve of the laws, he was here to finish the remaining prophecies of the law. God tells Moses to exterminate the residents of Canaan and destroy all of their religious symbols and possessions. 33:50-52 God delivers the Amorites into Moses' hands. (You're in God hands with Moses.) So Moses does the usual thing, killing everyone "until their was none left alive." 21:34-35 31:1-54. Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins God killed all the Egyptian firstborn. 33:4 But if the Israelites don't kill them all, then God will make them pricks in their eyes and thorns in their sides. And he will do unto the Israelites as he planned to do to the inhabitants of Canaan. 33:55-56 Jesus is the WORD. The WORD before becoming FLESH was the depiction of the opposite of what he portrayed in the flesh.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 03/07/12 08:20 AM
No "kill" laws were handed down to moses. And besides that, what laws did Jesus "not approve" of? Jesus wasn't here because he didn't approve of the laws, he was here to finish the remaining prophecies of the law. God tells Moses to exterminate the residents of Canaan and destroy all of their religious symbols and possessions. 33:50-52 God delivers the Amorites into Moses' hands. (You're in God hands with Moses.) So Moses does the usual thing, killing everyone "until their was none left alive." 21:34-35 31:1-54. Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins God killed all the Egyptian firstborn. 33:4 But if the Israelites don't kill them all, then God will make them pricks in their eyes and thorns in their sides. And he will do unto the Israelites as he planned to do to the inhabitants of Canaan. 33:55-56 Jesus is the WORD. The WORD before becoming FLESH was the depiction of the opposite of what he portrayed in the flesh. Not saying those aren't scriptures, but those scriptures are pointless for you did not give the book they are from eg., Mark, Matthew, ect.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 03/07/12 08:25 AM Edited by Sin_and_Sorrow on Wed 03/07/12 08:26 AM
My bad! Deuteronomy Exodus.. and, crap. :/ Another one. xD EDIT: Numbers.. might be another.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Wed 03/07/12 08:31 AM
Numbers 33:50-52 Numbers 21:34-35 Deuteronomy (Might be Exodus) 31:1-54. Numbers 33:4 Deut. 33:55-56 Jesus is the WORD. The WORD before becoming FLESH was the depiction of the opposite of what he portrayed in the flesh. Better?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 03/07/12 08:48 AM
Numbers 33:50-52 Numbers 21:34-35 Deuteronomy (Might be Exodus) 31:1-54. Numbers 33:4 Deut. 33:55-56 Jesus is the WORD. The WORD before becoming FLESH was the depiction of the opposite of what he portrayed in the flesh. Better? ==== Numbers 33:50-52 ==== 4For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. Keep in mind these verses are from the old covenant/testament. These people eg., the egyptians were doing wrong, they were worshipping false Gods, doing immoral things, ect. This is a judgement, not just cold blooded murder eg., old covenant where we were judged on Earth by our peers. Not going through all the verses you provided at this moment. But have roughly read over the verses and they have the same concept. And again these verses you provided are from the old covenant. Of course the old covenant times is going to look more blood/gory or "evil". For people were judged on Earth and is only explaining their judgement. And a righteous judgement is not the same thing as cold blooded murder, a judgement does not deduce someone/something to being "evil" or anythiing besides righteous for Jesus' judgement is righteous.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Wed 03/07/12 08:48 AM
Numbers 33:50-52 Numbers 21:34-35 Deuteronomy (Might be Exodus) 31:1-54. Numbers 33:4 Deut. 33:55-56 Jesus is the WORD. The WORD before becoming FLESH was the depiction of the opposite of what he portrayed in the flesh. Better? ==== Numbers 33:50-52 ==== 4For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. Keep in mind these verses are from the old covenant/testament. These people eg., the egyptians were doing wrong, they were worshipping false Gods, doing immoral things, ect. This is a judgement, not just cold blooded murder eg., old covenant where we were judged on Earth by our peers. Not going through all the verses you provided at this moment. But have roughly read over the verses and they have the same concept. And again these verses you provided are from the old covenant. Of course the old covenant times is going to look more blood/gory or "evil". For people were judged on Earth and is only explaining their judgement. And a righteous judgement is not the same thing as cold blooded murder, a judgement does not deduce someone/something to being "evil" or anythiing besides righteous for Jesus' judgement is righteous. No insult to you, but what is happening here in what you're doing is taking verses out of context.