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Topic: Do You Have The Right To Believe
msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 03/05/12 06:31 PM
apology Im clearing up the fallacy that all killing is murder,,, which is not true, as murder refers to a condition of law and kill refers only to an action,, an action which is not always against the law

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Mon 03/05/12 06:44 PM Edited by MorningSong on Mon 03/05/12 06:53 PM
And I AGREE with what you are saying, Msharmony...but am just looking into the deeper meaning of what God's Perfect Plan for us was all along , which was never to kill.... even for food.... but is an action God just allows (and again, am NOT talking about murder here )..... but when His Perfect Plan comes to pass for mankind, ALL WILL BE according to HIS PERFECT PLAN ...as it was intended by God for us from the very Beginning...

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 06:46 PM
Msharmony..I am talking about God allowing killing....NOT talking about murder here..... Thou shalt not kill... actually means, thou shalt not murder.... but to kill in war...to kill for food is what God allows..but again..... God never actually condoned killing of ANY kind..that was NOT in His PERFECT PLAN for His creation ever... our fallen state brought this on..not God.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 06:51 PM
MorningSong said, but to kill in war...to kill for food is what God allows..but again Incorrect MorningSong. Killing in war is just as bad as cold blooded murder. We are taught to turn the other cheek. Going to war is not very much of turning the other cheek. Matthew 5:39 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Mon 03/05/12 07:10 PM Edited by MorningSong on Mon 03/05/12 07:29 PM
We live in a fallen world......where there will be war....and to not defend ourselves against the enemy in a time of war is just plan and simple...foolishness... Gos allows war...God would rather we did not go to war..bu He allows it..and would not expect us to do absolutely nothing to protect or defend our country or our loved ones in a time of war, for instance . If war broke out ,and you and your family were under attack, would you not try to at least defend and protect your loved ones ?? IF the enemy broke into your house in a time of war,and made an attemept to kill you and your loved ones, woud you just turn the other cheek and allow the enemy to kill you and your loved ones? Again...It was never God's plan for us to kill in any way......but we are living in a fallen imperfect world.... but again... God's Will and Perfect Plan WILL STILL unfold and come to pass... according to GOD'S PERFECT PLAN FOR US .....as was planned by God from the beginning......... and Yes........THEN we WILL be living in a PERFECT WORLD as was in God's plan for us all along...but that time is STILL YET to come to pass

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:19 PM
We live in a fallen world......where there will be war....and to not defend ourselves against the enemy in a time of war is just plan and simple...foolishness... Gos allows war...God would rather we did not go to war..bu He allows it..and would not expect us to do absolutely nothing to protect or defend our country or our loved ones in a time of war, for instance ..... If war broke out ,and you and your family were under attack, would you not try to at least defend and protect your loved ones ?? IF the enemy broke int your housee in a time of war,and made an attemept to kill you and your loved ones, woud you just turn the other cheek and allow the enemy to kill you and your loved ones? God has flat out told us to turn the other cheek. Let me ask you a simple question, is not needed of an answer unless you wish to. Who/what do you love more? - Your things a theif could steal or God? - Your family or God? If you chose God, why then would you not obey him before anything anyone else? Why would you allow yourself to break one of God's laws even in order to protect a family member? Again, just hypothetical questions. No need for an answer unless you wish.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 03/05/12 07:26 PM
MorningSong said, but to kill in war...to kill for food is what God allows..but again Incorrect MorningSong. Killing in war is just as bad as cold blooded murder. We are taught to turn the other cheek. Going to war is not very much of turning the other cheek. Matthew 5:39 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. I think this is a different standard altogether. A Slap is rarely life threatening. To slap back would merely be perpetuating the violence. if someone is about to take your LIFE, however, reacting is not something that perpetuates the violence, but an attempt to end it.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 03/05/12 07:32 PM Edited by msharmony on Mon 03/05/12 07:34 PM
another passage Exodus 22:2-3 2If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 "If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. this is an example of 'self defense' (in the dark, when the intruders intentions might not be clear, as opposed to in the light when you might know they were just a thief) certainly , if it is CLEAR someone is about to kill you and you defend yourself,, there should be no guilt either,,,

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:37 PM
Exodus 22:2-3 2If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 "If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. The passage you have provided is from the old testament. In the time the old testament had power over us, we had the right to judge others. Two different sets of standards and expectations. You can NOT mix the two when discussing law/rules/ect of the bible.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:38 PM
MorningSong said, but to kill in war...to kill for food is what God allows..but again Incorrect MorningSong. Killing in war is just as bad as cold blooded murder. We are taught to turn the other cheek. Going to war is not very much of turning the other cheek. Matthew 5:39 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. I think this is a different standard altogether. A Slap is rarely life threatening. To slap back would merely be perpetuating the violence. if someone is about to take your LIFE, however, reacting is not something that perpetuates the violence, but an attempt to end it.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:39 PM
I think this is a different standard altogether. A Slap is rarely life threatening. To slap back would merely be perpetuating the violence. if someone is about to take your LIFE, however, reacting is not something that perpetuates the violence, but an attempt to end it I beg to differ. Matthew 18:15 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 03/05/12 07:43 PM
Exodus 22:2-3 2If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 "If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. The passage you have provided is from the old testament. In the time the old testament had power over us, we had the right to judge others. Two different sets of standards and expectations. You can NOT mix the two when discussing law/rules/ect of the bible. ok lets not look at it as judement but protecting our 'temple' instead why do you think Jesus may have given this instruction to his disciples Luke 22:36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. what else would he have suggested they have a sword for if not to defend themself?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:44 PM
Think this sums it up very well. Matthew 5:21-26 21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Mon 03/05/12 07:46 PM Edited by MorningSong on Mon 03/05/12 07:51 PM
In the old testament, they had what was called cities of refuge...to protect those who had accidentally killed someone ( usually in self defense ), from being killed themselves by an angry mob or persons in return.... IF the accidental killing would have been considered murder, that person who accidentally killed someone while acting in self defense, surely would not have been offered refuge within the cities of refuge...for protection.... The Word of God has to be rightly divided and rightly understood......in order to derive the correct meaning...

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:47 PM
what else would he have suggested they have a sword for if not to defend themself? Hunting and other uses as such for survival.

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:49 PM
In the old testament, they had what was called cities of refuge...to protect those who had accidentally killed someone ( usually in self defense ), from being killed themselves by an angry mob or persons in return.... IF the accidental killing would have been considered murder, that person who accidentally killed someone while acting in self defense, surely would not have been offered refuge within the cities of refuge...for protection.... The Word of God has to be rightly divided to rightly understood......in order to derive the correct meaning... Ther is a difference between Faith and Foolishness... In the old testament times, yes maybe. But now, it is not so.

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 03/05/12 07:54 PM
what else would he have suggested they have a sword for if not to defend themself? Hunting and other uses as such for survival. ok, I believe it is meant in the context of that passage, when Jesus is talking about the conflict about to come upon his disciples, for them to have as defense

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Mon 03/05/12 07:57 PM Edited by MorningSong on Mon 03/05/12 07:58 PM
Evenn In self defense ,God still sees and knows the heart of man. Point being....Even in self defense, one could have malice and ill intent in his heart towards another......so again...God would see and know what was really in the heart of that person...no matter what the situation might be

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:57 PM
what else would he have suggested they have a sword for if not to defend themself? Hunting and other uses as such for survival. ok, I believe it is meant in the context of that passage, when Jesus is talking about the conflict about to come upon his disciples, for them to have as defense Why would Jesus allow them to have sword for "defense" when Jesus taught to turn the other cheek?

CowboyGH Joined Mon 10/05/09 Posts: 13651	Mon 03/05/12 07:59 PM
Evenn In self defense ,God still sees and knows the heart of man. Point being....Even in self defense, one could have malice and ill intent in his heart towards the other......so again...God would see and know what was really in the heart of man...no matter what the situation might be And God has told us what to do in this form of situation, to turn the other cheek.