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Topic: Science and Faith Allies...not Enemies
funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 11:25 AM
all humans living in a garden without an education beyond that of a serpent is not proof of the existence of a God it's only proof that they were uneducated, they didn't even know they were naked, also according to the bible "no man hath seen God and lived" which means that Adam and Eve never saw God which is why they were only limited to a belief in one once taking from the fruit is when they gain knowledge and their offsprings could question whether Gods did exist and that is when Heresy arosed Heresy had to exist before Atheism and before Common Sense So, you are saying.. Because they lacked any type of common sense or knowledge.. ..is why they created a God? o.o Interesting. I'm saying that to understand the question one must place their common sense above their religious beliefs which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God..... and why?

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 11:26 AM Edited by Sin_and_Sorrow on Tue 02/21/12 11:30 AM
no man hath seen God and lived Please give the verse that says that. He misquoted it. It doesn't say no man hath seen God.. Because God himself said it. If we open our Books to Exodus 33:(crap it is 20 or 30?) I think it's Exodus 33:20. I know it's found in 33. "But He (meaning God) said, "You cannot see my face, for no man can see my face and live." However, Funches, such is actually 'true'. It was a misconception by the Disciples. Once Adam and Eve were banished, per the words of the Bible; God never made 'cameo' appearances. Why? Because it was not 'God' who was guiding man, it was Christ. John 1:1 (Thanks to Morning Song for showing me this verse, so, it cleared up a portion of this for me.) "In The beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." This part confuses, me of course, but by these words, it states that Christ himself was actually, somehow, present during the ages of Adam and Eve. It also becomes apparent, by this translation, that all 'face-to-face' appearances with God, were actually mistaken as being such, because it was Jesus, not God, who was making these actions of guidance to the people. Because now, every time the Bible makes reference to the "Word", you have to take into account that the Word is actually Christ and not just a 'speech' or combined set of letters to form words to make a sentence or 'preaching'. If you need proof Jesus is the word: John 1:14 "And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth." Bible, speaks of only one person being 'nothing' before becoming suddenly human (Via Mary's virgin pregnancy) and lived for a brief while (before his crucifixion) we saw who he was and as such, when we saw his Truest of forms, we finally understood that he was who he said he was; the Son of the Father, and he was here only to speak the truth. Shortly later... John 1:18 "No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]" Only Jesus has ever truly seen the 'face' of God. John made this known that all were mistaking Jesus, for God. Furthermore.. Which is why I was originally confused, if the Word is actually just a nickname for Jesus.. it also makes Psalms make a lot more sense. "Either sin will keep you from the Word of God, or the Word of God will keep you from sin." I always thought this had meant the Bible, but if it means an actual person (being), it makes far more sense.. (even if such still only lies in faith) Sin can take you farther than you want to go.. Cost you more than you are willing to give up.. And keeps you longer than you want to stay.. Still so many questions.. ..and it seems to me.. I'm walking back towards the center..

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 11:40 AM Edited by Sin_and_Sorrow on Tue 02/21/12 11:41 AM
all humans living in a garden without an education beyond that of a serpent is not proof of the existence of a God it's only proof that they were uneducated, they didn't even know they were naked, also according to the bible "no man hath seen God and lived" which means that Adam and Eve never saw God which is why they were only limited to a belief in one once taking from the fruit is when they gain knowledge and their offsprings could question whether Gods did exist and that is when Heresy arosed Heresy had to exist before Atheism and before Common Sense So, you are saying.. Because they lacked any type of common sense or knowledge.. ..is why they created a God? o.o Interesting. I'm saying that to understand the question one must place their common sense above their religious beliefs which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God..... and why? I don't think you can believe nor doubt anything if you lack any knowledge to conceive the action of doing so. That said. I don't think this ideal in itself could have began to take place until their eyes opened (so to speak). Once such took place, again, belief or doubt, still wouldn't take place, because Adam and Eve knew him personally. I think, imo, Cain and Abel still couldn't count either. Because most do not doubt what they 'see'. God 'spoke' to both of them. I'm not sure where or at what time or who the first was; but by my accounts.. It would have had to been the 'absence of God' which would have gave birth to doubt. So, using this type of logic.. A. You can't deem a 'believer' to be one who 'knows'; that follows under fact - theory concept. It is a theory until proven, but if it fact from the beginning; there was no theory. IE, there was no 'belief' because it was 'knowledge', therefore it was knowledge and not belief. B. When the 'absence' began to be felt by people, this is where both 'doubt' and 'belief' would come into play almost simultaneously. Why? Someone would have been preaching, 'We must worship/revere/etc God.' Because something impacted this man's life for him to hold the belief such was real. Meanwhile.. Someone hearing this would deny such because he is his opposite and never felt this 'God's' impact. Thus, he spreads the word of doubt. A debate much like this may have sprouted. Thus. Belief and Doubt were born from one 'conversation' by this logic. During the times when God may have distanced himself for a time, is when both the belief and the atheism aspect would have been forged. Ironically, I believe this to be whenever there began to be a chit load of people on the Earth.. Funny how that works. So, imo, I don't think you can have belief without doubt, nor vice versa. But it wouldn't have happened for some 1,000 years after the fall of Eden. Because knowledge is not doubt.

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 11:43 AM
"In The beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." name one thing that would not be "The Word" in the beginning you won't be able to because in the beginning everything was The Word since everything was still part of God after the six days of Creation everything that was created would no longer be the Word since it was separated from God John 1:1 is an introduction into Panthiesm

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 11:45 AM
all humans living in a garden without an education beyond that of a serpent is not proof of the existence of a God it's only proof that they were uneducated, they didn't even know they were naked, also according to the bible "no man hath seen God and lived" which means that Adam and Eve never saw God which is why they were only limited to a belief in one once taking from the fruit is when they gain knowledge and their offsprings could question whether Gods did exist and that is when Heresy arosed Heresy had to exist before Atheism and before Common Sense So, you are saying.. Because they lacked any type of common sense or knowledge.. ..is why they created a God? o.o Interesting. I'm saying that to understand the question one must place their common sense above their religious beliefs which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God..... and why? I don't think you can believe nor doubt anything if you lack any knowledge to conceive the action of doing so. That said. I don't think this ideal in itself could have began to take place until their eyes opened (so to speak). Once such took place, again, belief or doubt, still wouldn't take place, because Adam and Eve knew him personally. I think, imo, Cain and Abel still couldn't count either. Because most do not doubt what they 'see'. God 'spoke' to both of them. I'm not sure where or at what time or who the first was; but by my accounts.. It would have had to been the 'absence of God' which would have gave birth to doubt. So, using this type of logic.. A. You can't deem a 'believer' to be one who 'knows'; that follows under fact - theory concept. It is a theory until proven, but if it fact from the beginning; there was no theory. IE, there was no 'belief' because it was 'knowledge', therefore it was knowledge and not belief. B. When the 'absence' began to be felt by people, this is where both 'doubt' and 'belief' would come into play almost simultaneously. Why? Someone would have been preaching, 'We must worship/revere/etc God.' Because something impacted this man's life for him to hold the belief such was real. Meanwhile.. Someone hearing this would deny such because he is his opposite and never felt this 'God's' impact. Thus, he spreads the word of doubt. A debate much like this may have sprouted. Thus. Belief and Doubt were born from one 'conversation' by this logic. During the times when God may have distanced himself for a time, is when both the belief and the atheism aspect would have been forged. Ironically, I believe this to be whenever there began to be a chit load of people on the Earth.. Funny how that works. So, imo, I don't think you can have belief without doubt, nor vice versa. But it wouldn't have happened for some 1,000 years after the fall of Eden. Because knowledge is not doubt. you still did not answer the question which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God?

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 12:33 PM
"In The beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." name one thing that would not be "The Word" in the beginning you won't be able to because in the beginning everything was The Word since everything was still part of God after the six days of Creation everything that was created would no longer be the Word since it was separated from God John 1:1 is an introduction into Panthiesm That's why I said, the Word, in the beginning, seemed more like a metaphor, than an individual. Pantheism? God is related to the universe, so your point? o.o ..and everything after WAS the Word. The Word would later even take form. Such was said even before John proclaimed it. That was just my recent knowledged reference. Cause MorningSong told me to look it over. ..and God still created AFTER the six days; therefore, that is an invalid statement since he obviously still had 'stuff' not separated from himself. Nor does it make any references that he had 'separated ALL of himself'.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 12:33 PM
all humans living in a garden without an education beyond that of a serpent is not proof of the existence of a God it's only proof that they were uneducated, they didn't even know they were naked, also according to the bible "no man hath seen God and lived" which means that Adam and Eve never saw God which is why they were only limited to a belief in one once taking from the fruit is when they gain knowledge and their offsprings could question whether Gods did exist and that is when Heresy arosed Heresy had to exist before Atheism and before Common Sense So, you are saying.. Because they lacked any type of common sense or knowledge.. ..is why they created a God? o.o Interesting. I'm saying that to understand the question one must place their common sense above their religious beliefs which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God..... and why? I don't think you can believe nor doubt anything if you lack any knowledge to conceive the action of doing so. That said. I don't think this ideal in itself could have began to take place until their eyes opened (so to speak). Once such took place, again, belief or doubt, still wouldn't take place, because Adam and Eve knew him personally. I think, imo, Cain and Abel still couldn't count either. Because most do not doubt what they 'see'. God 'spoke' to both of them. I'm not sure where or at what time or who the first was; but by my accounts.. It would have had to been the 'absence of God' which would have gave birth to doubt. So, using this type of logic.. A. You can't deem a 'believer' to be one who 'knows'; that follows under fact - theory concept. It is a theory until proven, but if it fact from the beginning; there was no theory. IE, there was no 'belief' because it was 'knowledge', therefore it was knowledge and not belief. B. When the 'absence' began to be felt by people, this is where both 'doubt' and 'belief' would come into play almost simultaneously. Why? Someone would have been preaching, 'We must worship/revere/etc God.' Because something impacted this man's life for him to hold the belief such was real. Meanwhile.. Someone hearing this would deny such because he is his opposite and never felt this 'God's' impact. Thus, he spreads the word of doubt. A debate much like this may have sprouted. Thus. Belief and Doubt were born from one 'conversation' by this logic. During the times when God may have distanced himself for a time, is when both the belief and the atheism aspect would have been forged. Ironically, I believe this to be whenever there began to be a chit load of people on the Earth.. Funny how that works. So, imo, I don't think you can have belief without doubt, nor vice versa. But it wouldn't have happened for some 1,000 years after the fall of Eden. Because knowledge is not doubt. you still did not answer the question which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God? I did answer.

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 12:50 PM
"In The beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." name one thing that would not be "The Word" in the beginning you won't be able to because in the beginning everything was The Word since everything was still part of God after the six days of Creation everything that was created would no longer be the Word since it was separated from God John 1:1 is an introduction into Panthiesm That's why I said, the Word, in the beginning, seemed more like a metaphor, than an individual. Pantheism? God is related to the universe, so your point? o.o ..and everything after WAS the Word. The Word would later even take form. Such was said even before John proclaimed it. That was just my recent knowledged reference. Cause MorningSong told me to look it over. ..and God still created AFTER the six days; therefore, that is an invalid statement since he obviously still had 'stuff' not separated from himself. Nor does it make any references that he had 'separated ALL of himself'. name one thing before creation that wouldn't have been The Word ...you won't be able to

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 12:51 PM
all humans living in a garden without an education beyond that of a serpent is not proof of the existence of a God it's only proof that they were uneducated, they didn't even know they were naked, also according to the bible "no man hath seen God and lived" which means that Adam and Eve never saw God which is why they were only limited to a belief in one once taking from the fruit is when they gain knowledge and their offsprings could question whether Gods did exist and that is when Heresy arosed Heresy had to exist before Atheism and before Common Sense So, you are saying.. Because they lacked any type of common sense or knowledge.. ..is why they created a God? o.o Interesting. I'm saying that to understand the question one must place their common sense above their religious beliefs which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God..... and why? I don't think you can believe nor doubt anything if you lack any knowledge to conceive the action of doing so. That said. I don't think this ideal in itself could have began to take place until their eyes opened (so to speak). Once such took place, again, belief or doubt, still wouldn't take place, because Adam and Eve knew him personally. I think, imo, Cain and Abel still couldn't count either. Because most do not doubt what they 'see'. God 'spoke' to both of them. I'm not sure where or at what time or who the first was; but by my accounts.. It would have had to been the 'absence of God' which would have gave birth to doubt. So, using this type of logic.. A. You can't deem a 'believer' to be one who 'knows'; that follows under fact - theory concept. It is a theory until proven, but if it fact from the beginning; there was no theory. IE, there was no 'belief' because it was 'knowledge', therefore it was knowledge and not belief. B. When the 'absence' began to be felt by people, this is where both 'doubt' and 'belief' would come into play almost simultaneously. Why? Someone would have been preaching, 'We must worship/revere/etc God.' Because something impacted this man's life for him to hold the belief such was real. Meanwhile.. Someone hearing this would deny such because he is his opposite and never felt this 'God's' impact. Thus, he spreads the word of doubt. A debate much like this may have sprouted. Thus. Belief and Doubt were born from one 'conversation' by this logic. During the times when God may have distanced himself for a time, is when both the belief and the atheism aspect would have been forged. Ironically, I believe this to be whenever there began to be a chit load of people on the Earth.. Funny how that works. So, imo, I don't think you can have belief without doubt, nor vice versa. But it wouldn't have happened for some 1,000 years after the fall of Eden. Because knowledge is not doubt. you still did not answer the question which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God? I did answer. yes...you answered "Brown"

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 01:16 PM
"In The beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." name one thing that would not be "The Word" in the beginning you won't be able to because in the beginning everything was The Word since everything was still part of God after the six days of Creation everything that was created would no longer be the Word since it was separated from God John 1:1 is an introduction into Panthiesm That's why I said, the Word, in the beginning, seemed more like a metaphor, than an individual. Pantheism? God is related to the universe, so your point? o.o ..and everything after WAS the Word. The Word would later even take form. Such was said even before John proclaimed it. That was just my recent knowledged reference. Cause MorningSong told me to look it over. ..and God still created AFTER the six days; therefore, that is an invalid statement since he obviously still had 'stuff' not separated from himself. Nor does it make any references that he had 'separated ALL of himself'. name one thing before creation that wouldn't have been The Word ...you won't be able to No chit. That's the start of the Bible. Duh.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 01:16 PM
all humans living in a garden without an education beyond that of a serpent is not proof of the existence of a God it's only proof that they were uneducated, they didn't even know they were naked, also according to the bible "no man hath seen God and lived" which means that Adam and Eve never saw God which is why they were only limited to a belief in one once taking from the fruit is when they gain knowledge and their offsprings could question whether Gods did exist and that is when Heresy arosed Heresy had to exist before Atheism and before Common Sense So, you are saying.. Because they lacked any type of common sense or knowledge.. ..is why they created a God? o.o Interesting. I'm saying that to understand the question one must place their common sense above their religious beliefs which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God..... and why? I don't think you can believe nor doubt anything if you lack any knowledge to conceive the action of doing so. That said. I don't think this ideal in itself could have began to take place until their eyes opened (so to speak). Once such took place, again, belief or doubt, still wouldn't take place, because Adam and Eve knew him personally. I think, imo, Cain and Abel still couldn't count either. Because most do not doubt what they 'see'. God 'spoke' to both of them. I'm not sure where or at what time or who the first was; but by my accounts.. It would have had to been the 'absence of God' which would have gave birth to doubt. So, using this type of logic.. A. You can't deem a 'believer' to be one who 'knows'; that follows under fact - theory concept. It is a theory until proven, but if it fact from the beginning; there was no theory. IE, there was no 'belief' because it was 'knowledge', therefore it was knowledge and not belief. B. When the 'absence' began to be felt by people, this is where both 'doubt' and 'belief' would come into play almost simultaneously. Why? Someone would have been preaching, 'We must worship/revere/etc God.' Because something impacted this man's life for him to hold the belief such was real. Meanwhile.. Someone hearing this would deny such because he is his opposite and never felt this 'God's' impact. Thus, he spreads the word of doubt. A debate much like this may have sprouted. Thus. Belief and Doubt were born from one 'conversation' by this logic. During the times when God may have distanced himself for a time, is when both the belief and the atheism aspect would have been forged. Ironically, I believe this to be whenever there began to be a chit load of people on the Earth.. Funny how that works. So, imo, I don't think you can have belief without doubt, nor vice versa. But it wouldn't have happened for some 1,000 years after the fall of Eden. Because knowledge is not doubt. you still did not answer the question which came first...Atheism or a Belief in God? I did answer. yes...you answered "Brown" ..so there you go then.

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 01:21 PM
"In The beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself." name one thing that would not be "The Word" in the beginning you won't be able to because in the beginning everything was The Word since everything was still part of God after the six days of Creation everything that was created would no longer be the Word since it was separated from God John 1:1 is an introduction into Panthiesm That's why I said, the Word, in the beginning, seemed more like a metaphor, than an individual. Pantheism? God is related to the universe, so your point? o.o ..and everything after WAS the Word. The Word would later even take form. Such was said even before John proclaimed it. That was just my recent knowledged reference. Cause MorningSong told me to look it over. ..and God still created AFTER the six days; therefore, that is an invalid statement since he obviously still had 'stuff' not separated from himself. Nor does it make any references that he had 'separated ALL of himself'. name one thing before creation that wouldn't have been The Word ...you won't be able to No chit. That's the start of the Bible. Duh. and that's why everything would have been The Word

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 01:27 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it.

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 01:31 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it. well I asked you to name something that wouldn't be The Word ...you still have the opportunity to do that .....

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 01:34 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it. well I asked you to name something that wouldn't be The Word ...you still have the opportunity to do that ..... You act as though God never spoke? That wouldn't be the Word, that'd be God. God created man, AFTER the mentioning of the WORD. Lots of things. It's up to your own common sense, if you actually have any, to determine what was an analogy and what wasn't.

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 01:36 PM Edited by funches on Tue 02/21/12 01:37 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it. well I asked you to name something that wouldn't be The Word ...you still have the opportunity to do that ..... You act as though God never spoke? That wouldn't be the Word, that'd be God. God created man, AFTER the mentioning of the WORD. Lots of things. It's up to your own common sense, if you actually have any, to determine what was an analogy and what wasn't. God speaking would have been the Word

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 01:38 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it. well I asked you to name something that wouldn't be The Word ...you still have the opportunity to do that ..... You act as though God never spoke? That wouldn't be the Word, that'd be God. God created man, AFTER the mentioning of the WORD. Lots of things. It's up to your own common sense, if you actually have any, to determine what was an analogy and what wasn't. God speaking would have been the Word Nope. Again, you didn't listen to a word I just said. (no pun intended) So, either re-read, or just admit your wrong. shrug It's of no consequence to me. ..actually tired of proving you wrong. sigh

funches Joined Sat 12/01/07 Posts: 12948	Tue 02/21/12 01:41 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it. well I asked you to name something that wouldn't be The Word ...you still have the opportunity to do that ..... You act as though God never spoke? That wouldn't be the Word, that'd be God. God created man, AFTER the mentioning of the WORD. Lots of things. It's up to your own common sense, if you actually have any, to determine what was an analogy and what wasn't. God speaking would have been the Word Nope. Again, you didn't listen to a word I just said. (no pun intended) So, either re-read, or just admit your wrong. shrug It's of no consequence to me. ..actually tired of proving you wrong. sigh when God spoke and said "Let there be Light" and then there was Light...is why when he spoke it was The Word

MorningSong Joined Mon 02/11/08 Posts: 4505	Tue 02/21/12 02:00 PM Edited by MorningSong on Tue 02/21/12 02:06 PM
Sin_and_Sorrow..God did not create after God rested... Jesus (God Incarnate) was NOT created The Word BECAME FLESH..... The Word BECAME flesh and Dwelt among us..... NO NOT NOT The Word was CREATED FLESH...NO Jesus always WAS...in The beginning Jesus was known as the WORD..and the Word BECAME flesh(God INCARNATE)... and also.. the Father, Word(Jesus)and the Holy Spirit ... ALL 3 ARE EQUALLY GOD....and ARE ONLY ONE GOD. Jesus is EQUALLY AS MUCH GOD as the FATHER IS GOD..... The Holy Spirit is ALSO EQUALLY AS MUCH GOD AS THE FATHER AND SON IS GOD. The 3 ARE ONE GOD....ONLY ONE SUPREME BEING ... ONLY ONE GOD ALMIGHTY. 3 PERSONS IN ONLY ONE SUPREME BEING OR ONE GOD.

Sin_and_Sorrow Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 5757	Tue 02/21/12 02:08 PM
and that's why everything would have been The Word ..sure, because you say so.. Got it. well I asked you to name something that wouldn't be The Word ...you still have the opportunity to do that ..... You act as though God never spoke? That wouldn't be the Word, that'd be God. God created man, AFTER the mentioning of the WORD. Lots of things. It's up to your own common sense, if you actually have any, to determine what was an analogy and what wasn't. God speaking would have been the Word Nope. Again, you didn't listen to a word I just said. (no pun intended) So, either re-read, or just admit your wrong. shrug It's of no consequence to me. ..actually tired of proving you wrong. sigh when God spoke and said "Let there be Light" and then there was Light...is why when he spoke it was The Word ..and as I said, the WORD was also a being. Not just when he spoke.