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| Topic: Recovering from religious extremism - Religiosity | |
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones:
http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." |
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God did not write the bible - it is "inspired of god". Men wrote the bible as they were moved by the Holy spirit. So - though a bit disingenuous - it is a fact that "Men wrote the bible." finally ....a logical christian....welcome back Eljay You must realize - that Funches is a literalist, so in responding to him - you must say what you mean, and mean what you say. how rude ......but accurate Rude... I meant it as a compliment. It's one of the things I really enjoy about your posts because you catcvh the little "exaggerations" - as I like to put them. Though I can't always agree with your logic - I have no problem seeing your objections. |
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Wonder what label would need to be put on the thread to actually get people to SHARE beliefs instead of attack or belittle them,,,,?
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." I can plainly see that you are only interested in finding people to put down religion instead of starting some sort of Atheist group.Why you think that people who believe in religion are somehow brainwashed,idiots,who can't think for themselves is laughable.I think the majority of people who have come to Christianity did it because they had nothing to believe in,bad childhoods,and other problems.How many thousands of stories have I read where suicidal people turned to Christ and were saved.People who had bad marriages,were homeless,drug problems.The church saved their lives. I have yet to read a story of a person who was thinking of suicide and they said that turning to Atheism saved their life.Matter of fact I have never heard of anyone turning to Atheism to help solve problems of any sort.I also think it's a pretty pathetic and sad when you are telling people to believe in nothing and nothing is the answer to your problems. China is nothing but Atheist.You think America should be more like China?What has China done ever to help anyone even it's own people? |
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." I can plainly see that you are only interested in finding people to put down religion instead of starting some sort of Atheist group.Why you think that people who believe in religion are somehow brainwashed,idiots,who can't think for themselves is laughable.I think the majority of people who have come to Christianity did it because they had nothing to believe in,bad childhoods,and other problems.How many thousands of stories have I read where suicidal people turned to Christ and were saved.People who had bad marriages,were homeless,drug problems.The church saved their lives. I have yet to read a story of a person who was thinking of suicide and they said that turning to Atheism saved their life.Matter of fact I have never heard of anyone turning to Atheism to help solve problems of any sort.I also think it's a pretty pathetic and sad when you are telling people to believe in nothing and nothing is the answer to your problems. China is nothing but Atheist.You think America should be more like China?What has China done ever to help anyone even it's own people? All I needed to see was your first line to see the rest would be worthless to read much less ponder. I am not part of any group...how about reading enough to know what you're talking about...you are putting yourself down...not me. |
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Atheists don't need a group, they stand alone.
Atheist do not need to make others believe because they already have logic on their side. If only the religious could stop feeling attacked any time someone differs from their beliefs. Or better yet, know that because their beliefs are not scientific, logical, etc... that people are going to question them and should. And most of all that religions are not exactly healthy for the human mind. Not saying all go crazy from it but some really take religion to a dangerous place. You really see less Atheist zealots. 
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Tue 01/05/10 09:55 PM
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How can '... WHAT IS PERCEIVED AND ACCEPTED AS TRUE FOR ONE...' which is a legitimate human experience, wouldn't any human experience be legitmate ...what would constitute a fake human experience It could have been made clearer perhaps, but taking only part of the sentence as you do, loses it all together. What the whole sentence implies, is that it is perfectly illegitimate to suggest that what is true for oneself, is THE TRUTH FOR ALL. Illegitimate here, as in : not rightly deduced or inferred, ILLOGICAL. While certain individuals' personal faith and beliefs can very well bring them to hold certain pieces of christian dogma as what is true for them, it is 'illegitimate' for those same people to derive that 'what is true for them' is THE TRUTH for all. Eljay wrote earlier: God did not write the bible - it is "inspired of god". Men wrote the bible as they were moved by the Holy spirit. 'Inspired of god' and 'men moved by the holy spirit', is by no means true or 'THE TRUTH' as it seems to be implied above. It is strictly what 'some' hold as true for themselves through faith and a certain system of beliefs. In reality, those statements belongs to myths, religious doctrine and BELIEFS, and religious dogma. None of it has ever been validated, nor should it be!!! To keep insisting that 'INSPIRED OF GOD' has to be true, so that it can conveniently make 'THE WORD' of the bible infallibly 'THE WORD OF ALL WORDS, THE TRUTH OF ALL TRUTHS', is self-serving and grossly ILLEGITIMATE. Statements from Eljay's previous post: What is incorrect to assume from this - is that the bible is fallable, because men are fallable, for that contradicts the fact that the men who wrote the bible were inspired by God. So - therefore, the fallacy of men is trumped by the infallibility of God, because it defies logic to assume that an omnicient God would not know a mistake would be written by an author writing one of the books of scripture, and by his very nature - could not allow that to happen, so would inspire that author to only account that which He (God) wanted accounted. Illegitimate. Trickery!!! IMHO. You can't discuss faith as though it were fact! We'll end-up with 'creationists' operating on brain tumors with psalms and hymns! Some can't pretend a factual 'god', with infallible words, who inspired certain men to write a 'book', simply to satisfy their insatiable need for certainty!!! Stop confusing faith and fact. Leave faith in the 'personal faith' domain. Don't illegitimately carry it to the PUBLIC domain of fact and logic. Ultimately, simply don't take faith 'litterally', and everything will be fine and dandy!!! |
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I always tell people, one of the greatest, most freeing things I did in life was set down religion. I take full and utter responsibility for what I do in life to myself and others I don't have to try to be superior to others with the mythology of old men nor wish hell on those who do not believe. I don't have to look to others for my morality. I don't have to believe in an evil force using me to fight an imaginary battle with another force supposedly good. I don't have to believe that I am some uncontrolled animal without religion. I REALLY do have free will, not the illusion taught in religion I can look at the progression/regression of man because and around religion objectively without reverence for one over the other. My spirit has been so full of life and appreciation for life since I freed it. Could not have said it better. Took me a while to let it go, but when I did it was the best thing I ever did. I agree with the Original post. |
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." These are some of the most refreshing and hopeful words I have read in these religious forums in the couple of years I've been around. The luminous side of human nature seems to be fighting back the 'virus'!!! Great finds 'middelearthing'. |
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I can see debating this topic is rather pointless.I will just say that in your lifetime even if you devoted all your time to trying to convert Christians and others to believe in Atheism you will have more people converting to Christianity in one day than your entire lifetime of converting people to Atheism.That is why you have and always will have Christianity as the #1 religion and Athesim so far down the scale most people don't notice.
In a 2006 nationwide poll, University of Minnesota researchers found that despite an increasing acceptance of religious diversity, atheists were generally distrusted by other Americans, who rated them below Muslims, recent immigrants and other minority groups in "sharing their vision of American society". They also associated atheists with undesirable attributes such as criminal behavior, rampant materialism, and cultural elitism. Atheism The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason into self replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense!
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." These are some of the most refreshing and hopeful words I have read in these religious forums in the couple of years I've been around. The luminous side of human nature seems to be fighting back the 'virus'!!! Great finds 'middelearthing'. Christianity is no more a virus than patriotism or any other allegiance, unless it affects or causes harm to others, in which case it is more a result of the individual mind than any collective belief As to the other, I posted before I am all about self accountability and responsibility I dont feel superior or inferior to anyone I look to my conscience for morality, and not others I Have no idea about being used to fight evil,, never heard of it within my faith I never believed I am an animal and will never equate myself to one I have free will the only thing on dragoness list that doesnt apply to christians like myself is the reverence, I do have reverence towards God(but it makes me no less free than someone who reveres themself or mankind) seriously,,is the person who does good to appease themself any freer than the person who wants to please their parents or their God? the end result is the same, wherever the 'motivation' comes from. |
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God did not write the bible - it is "inspired of god". Men wrote the bible as they were moved by the Holy spirit. So - though a bit disingenuous - it is a fact that "Men wrote the bible." finally ....a logical christian....welcome back Eljay You must realize - that Funches is a literalist, so in responding to him - you must say what you mean, and mean what you say. how rude ......but accurate Rude... I meant it as a compliment. It's one of the things I really enjoy about your posts because you catcvh the little "exaggerations" - as I like to put them. "how rude" was just an attempt at humor .. Though I can't always agree with your logic - I have no problem seeing your objections. how rude |
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Wonder what label would need to be put on the thread to actually get people to SHARE beliefs instead of attack or belittle them,,,,? MsHarmony... to "SHARE" beliefs would imply having the same beliefs or requiring others to accept your beliefs without question because to imply that the thread needs a label is just the same as attacking and belittling those that have posted in the thread for example ...you may claim that God is the creator of the Universe ...and in response someone may say..NO he's not .....that in itself is an attack and belittling your beliefs in God |
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Wed 01/06/10 08:44 AM
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." These are some of the most refreshing and hopeful words I have read in these religious forums in the couple of years I've been around. The luminous side of human nature seems to be fighting back the 'virus'!!! Great finds 'middelearthing'. MSHARMONY WROTE: Christianity is no more a virus than patriotism or any other allegiance, unless it affects or causes harm to others, in which case it is more a result of the individual mind than any collective belief msharmony, you keep insisting in being part of the problem when in fact you're not. The virus is 'christian fundamentalism', ... (when christianity takes a radical, fanatical or extremist turn, and it does) ... a specific and isolated component of christianity, and not all of christianity and every christian in it!!! This thread is about radicalism, fundamentalism, and extremism and its relation with all religions, and with christianity in particular because it is the dominant religion in North America. The harm done when religion, christian in our case, turns radical. And yes, it is the religion that turns radical and appeals to a minority of its more fanaticism prone adherents. An individual mind doesn't live in a vacuum! As the 'protestant fundamentalism code' would have them all 'believe'!!! All 'individual minds' are 'fed' and influenced by surrounding mentalities. When that mentality takes the form of religious dogma, litteralism, fundamentalism, some of the more vulnerable or fragile 'individual minds' have been known to adopt it without question. 'protestant fundamentalism' perfectly fits this kind of 'individual mind feeding' radical and harmful mentality. Can you not see the difference between a radical, fanatical, and fundamentalist christian and yourself? There is no possible dialogue with a fundamentalist of any kind, which includes CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS; the hardcore 'litteralist' fringe of the christian 'family'. You're not one of them! Stop insisting on denying that fact. Nothing is being said in this thread about christians WHOM HAVE NOT BEEN 'zombified' by the 'protestant fundamentalism' dogma. Stop defending yourself msharmony. We're metaphorically talking about a cousin of yours that is hit by a serious mental disorder. Nowhere does that imply that YOU are also a victim of this mental disorder, ... just because you share the same family name!!! What say you msharmony?!?!? |
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How can '... WHAT IS PERCEIVED AND ACCEPTED AS TRUE FOR ONE...' which is a legitimate human experience, wouldn't any human experience be legitmate ...what would constitute a fake human experience It could have been made clearer perhaps, but taking only part of the sentence as you do, loses it all together. What the whole sentence implies, is that it is perfectly illegitimate to suggest that what is true for oneself, is THE TRUTH FOR ALL. Illegitimate here, as in : not rightly deduced or inferred, ILLOGICAL. While certain individuals' personal faith and beliefs can very well bring them to hold certain pieces of christian dogma as what is true for them, it is 'illegitimate' for those same people to derive that 'what is true for them' is THE TRUTH for all. Eljay wrote earlier: God did not write the bible - it is "inspired of god". Men wrote the bible as they were moved by the Holy spirit. 'Inspired of god' and 'men moved by the holy spirit', is by no means true or 'THE TRUTH' as it seems to be implied above. It is strictly what 'some' hold as true for themselves through faith and a certain system of beliefs. In reality, those statements belongs to myths, religious doctrine and BELIEFS, and religious dogma. None of it has ever been validated, nor should it be!!! To keep insisting that 'INSPIRED OF GOD' has to be true, so that it can conveniently make 'THE WORD' of the bible infallibly 'THE WORD OF ALL WORDS, THE TRUTH OF ALL TRUTHS', is self-serving and grossly ILLEGITIMATE. Statements from Eljay's previous post: What is incorrect to assume from this - is that the bible is fallable, because men are fallable, for that contradicts the fact that the men who wrote the bible were inspired by God. So - therefore, the fallacy of men is trumped by the infallibility of God, because it defies logic to assume that an omnicient God would not know a mistake would be written by an author writing one of the books of scripture, and by his very nature - could not allow that to happen, so would inspire that author to only account that which He (God) wanted accounted. Illegitimate. Trickery!!! IMHO. You can't discuss faith as though it were fact! We'll end-up with 'creationists' operating on brain tumors with psalms and hymns! Some can't pretend a factual 'god', with infallible words, who inspired certain men to write a 'book', simply to satisfy their insatiable need for certainty!!! Stop confusing faith and fact. Leave faith in the 'personal faith' domain. Don't illegitimately carry it to the PUBLIC domain of fact and logic. Ultimately, simply don't take faith 'litterally', and everything will be fine and dandy!!! Sorry Voile - but you're the magician my friend. Let us point out what is fact here. What is fact is what the bible claims within it's writing - now if you want to claim belief of it's validity or not, well, that is a matter of faith, or lack thereof as to one's perception of whether or not what one reads is believable. I'm not in disagreement over what either you or Funches says when addressing all of this as a matter of faith and not of fact. But let us extend this realm into another sphere, and see if YOUR words represent any idea of truth. Let's substitute "evolution" for creationists and Christians and God, and see how ll of a sudden your tune changes on what is fact and what is myth. For it is here you have "believers of myth's" operating on brain tumors with nothing to substanciate their world view. It's trickery I tell ya. |
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." These are some of the most refreshing and hopeful words I have read in these religious forums in the couple of years I've been around. The luminous side of human nature seems to be fighting back the 'virus'!!! Great finds 'middelearthing'. MSHARMONY WROTE: Christianity is no more a virus than patriotism or any other allegiance, unless it affects or causes harm to others, in which case it is more a result of the individual mind than any collective belief msharmony, you keep insisting in being part of the problem when in fact you're not. The virus is 'christian fundamentalism', ... (when christianity takes a radical, fanatical or extremist turn, and it does) ... a specific and isolated component of christianity, and not all of christianity and every christian in it!!! This thread is about radicalism, fundamentalism, and extremism and its relation with all religions, and with christianity in particular because it is the dominant religion in North America. The harm done when religion, christian in our case, turns radical. And yes, it is the religion that turns radical and appeals to a minority of its more fanaticism prone adherents. An individual mind doesn't live in a vacuum! As the 'protestant fundamentalism code' would have them all 'believe'!!! Okay - now, I need you to explain to me the difference between a "religion" turning radical - and an individual's interpretation being what turns radical. How is it that there is this much flexability in a philosophy which claims that it is unchanging? By your logic - when an Islamist turns radical, the "religion" has turned radical - so how is it that every Islamist is not now a radical terrorist? Obviously - you could interchange christanity with Islam here and you'd have the same claim. All 'individual minds' are 'fed' and influenced by surrounding mentalities. When that mentality takes the form of religious dogma, litteralism, fundamentalism, some of the more vulnerable or fragile 'individual minds' have been known to adopt it without question. 'protestant fundamentalism' perfectly fits this kind of 'individual mind feeding' radical and harmful mentality. This is not unique t a religious fundamentalism, especially Christianity. As any 5 year old how long ago Dinasaurs lived and you'll get the perfect support for your argument - and that would be an indightment against every secular humanist who walks the planet who crams their "fundamentalism" down the throats of those incapable of reasoning out fact from fiction for themselves. This would include you Voile - reducing yourself to that which you rant and rave about. Labelling this sort of behavior as befitting "Christian Fundamentalism" is merely attempting to put a label on a behavior that is human - to a philosophy you don't agree with. But associate it with that which you hold near and dear - and now you'll be screaming how I'm a "Christian Fundy" with no grasp of reality, because it's the only way you know how to respond to this issue. To busy trying to defend people by blaming their faults on religion, than you are to see that the fault is inherant in people. |
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Wonder what label would need to be put on the thread to actually get people to SHARE beliefs instead of attack or belittle them,,,,? MsHarmony... to "SHARE" beliefs would imply having the same beliefs or requiring others to accept your beliefs without question because to imply that the thread needs a label is just the same as attacking and belittling those that have posted in the thread for example ...you may claim that God is the creator of the Universe ...and in response someone may say..NO he's not .....that in itself is an attack and belittling your beliefs in God actually sharing does not require similarity,,for instance, children share stories about what they did over summer break,,not required that they do the same thing over summer break to share their experience also , i didnt imply it NEEDED a label , I asked what label might motivate people to come and share instead of belittle If I say I BELIEVE God is the creator of the universe and someone else says I DONT BELIEVE He is,,that is not belittling,,,if someone says 'you are lost, belief is a virus,,those who believe God is the creator are such and such"..THAT is belittling |
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Found some more good helpful and hopeful info for the lost ones: http://www.recoveringreligionists.com/Purpose.html "Preamble Having awakened our ability to think clearly and logically, we wish to apply the principles of rational thinking and the scientific method to our lives. Religion was often given to us as children, by well meaning parents, before we had the conscious tools to question or resist. We may also have been religiously infected during times of stress when seeking social support. Our purpose is to provide support to each other as we uncover myths and superstitions that have governed so much of our past thinking and behavior. Our purpose is NOT to convert anyone to any organization or group, but to question superstition and irrational ideas when we encounter them. To that end, we propose these ten guiding principles for RR. 1. We recognize that we have the power to identify and eliminate irrational ideas and that our lives are manageable without religion and superstition. 2.We experience the power of rational thinking and recognize that the scientific method can help us reduce and eliminate supernatural ideas and religious infection. We are our own “myth busters.” 3. We are ready and willing to pursue lives based on reason, truth, self examination and integrity. 4. We have made an analytic inventory of our ideas and beliefs and dispensed with those that were based upon superstition and myth. 5. We have admitted to ourselves and to each other that we have been prisoners of myth, superstition, and prejudice born out of religion. 6. We have made a list of all persons we hurt (through judgement or condemnation) because we disapproved of their religious beliefs or their lack of beliefs. We have made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 7. We will work tirelessly to keep religious prejudice from infecting our judgments of people and the world. 8. We will examine the sources of our feelings of guilt and determine if they come from inappropriate religious training. If so, we will strive to eliminate them. 9.We will seek through rational discussion and debate to improve our relationships with all people, believers, non-believers, and unbelievers. 10. We will live by an ethic that values humanity and human relationships above dogma and superstition." These are some of the most refreshing and hopeful words I have read in these religious forums in the couple of years I've been around. The luminous side of human nature seems to be fighting back the 'virus'!!! Great finds 'middelearthing'. MSHARMONY WROTE: Christianity is no more a virus than patriotism or any other allegiance, unless it affects or causes harm to others, in which case it is more a result of the individual mind than any collective belief msharmony, you keep insisting in being part of the problem when in fact you're not. The virus is 'christian fundamentalism', ... (when christianity takes a radical, fanatical or extremist turn, and it does) ... a specific and isolated component of christianity, and not all of christianity and every christian in it!!! This thread is about radicalism, fundamentalism, and extremism and its relation with all religions, and with christianity in particular because it is the dominant religion in North America. The harm done when religion, christian in our case, turns radical. And yes, it is the religion that turns radical and appeals to a minority of its more fanaticism prone adherents. An individual mind doesn't live in a vacuum! As the 'protestant fundamentalism code' would have them all 'believe'!!! All 'individual minds' are 'fed' and influenced by surrounding mentalities. When that mentality takes the form of religious dogma, litteralism, fundamentalism, some of the more vulnerable or fragile 'individual minds' have been known to adopt it without question. 'protestant fundamentalism' perfectly fits this kind of 'individual mind feeding' radical and harmful mentality. Can you not see the difference between a radical, fanatical, and fundamentalist christian and yourself? There is no possible dialogue with a fundamentalist of any kind, which includes CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS; the hardcore 'litteralist' fringe of the christian 'family'. You're not one of them! Stop insisting on denying that fact. Nothing is being said in this thread about christians WHOM HAVE NOT BEEN 'zombified' by the 'protestant fundamentalism' dogma. Stop defending yourself msharmony. We're metaphorically talking about a cousin of yours that is hit by a serious mental disorder. Nowhere does that imply that YOU are also a victim of this mental disorder, ... just because you share the same family name!!! What say you msharmony?!?!? I would say that is fine for those approaching the subject in that matter. I am, however, responding to those who seem to be claiming my cousins mental disorder is BECAUSE he is my cousin. I take issue with calling peoples faith myth and superstition and insisting that by nature of faith being involved something like judgment or decent behavior is somehow less free or less valid than judgment and behavior which is based upon anything else. Those who want to discuss radicalism are no issue and I enjoy the information. I just have to speak up towards those who seem to constantly belittle someones choice of Faith. |
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Wed 01/06/10 10:20 AM
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How can '... WHAT IS PERCEIVED AND ACCEPTED AS TRUE FOR ONE...' which is a legitimate human experience, wouldn't any human experience be legitmate ...what would constitute a fake human experience It could have been made clearer perhaps, but taking only part of the sentence as you do, loses it all together. What the whole sentence implies, is that it is perfectly illegitimate to suggest that what is true for oneself, is THE TRUTH FOR ALL. Illegitimate here, as in : not rightly deduced or inferred, ILLOGICAL. While certain individuals' personal faith and beliefs can very well bring them to hold certain pieces of christian dogma as what is true for them, it is 'illegitimate' for those same people to derive that 'what is true for them' is THE TRUTH for all. Eljay wrote earlier: God did not write the bible - it is "inspired of god". Men wrote the bible as they were moved by the Holy spirit. 'Inspired of god' and 'men moved by the holy spirit', is by no means true or 'THE TRUTH' as it seems to be implied above. It is strictly what 'some' hold as true for themselves through faith and a certain system of beliefs. In reality, those statements belongs to myths, religious doctrine and BELIEFS, and religious dogma. None of it has ever been validated, nor should it be!!! To keep insisting that 'INSPIRED OF GOD' has to be true, so that it can conveniently make 'THE WORD' of the bible infallibly 'THE WORD OF ALL WORDS, THE TRUTH OF ALL TRUTHS', is self-serving and grossly ILLEGITIMATE. Statements from Eljay's previous post: What is incorrect to assume from this - is that the bible is fallable, because men are fallable, for that contradicts the fact that the men who wrote the bible were inspired by God. So - therefore, the fallacy of men is trumped by the infallibility of God, because it defies logic to assume that an omnicient God would not know a mistake would be written by an author writing one of the books of scripture, and by his very nature - could not allow that to happen, so would inspire that author to only account that which He (God) wanted accounted. Illegitimate. Trickery!!! IMHO. You can't discuss faith as though it were fact! We'll end-up with 'creationists' operating on brain tumors with psalms and hymns! Some can't pretend a factual 'god', with infallible words, who inspired certain men to write a 'book', simply to satisfy their insatiable need for certainty!!! Stop confusing faith and fact. Leave faith in the 'personal faith' domain. Don't illegitimately carry it to the PUBLIC domain of fact and logic. Ultimately, simply don't take faith 'litterally', and everything will be fine and dandy!!! Sorry Voile - but you're the magician my friend. Let us point out what is fact here. What is fact is what the bible claims within it's writing - Dear Eljay, if you sincerely suggest that your comment above is 'FACT', I rest my case in the matter of confusing fact and faith. And you win the title of Master Prestigitator!!! The only facts about your comment above, is that there is this 'book', which some people a while back called the 'bible', which contains a bunch of words, over which words people have a lot of heated and diverging opinions. That's about it on the fact front. With respect to the 'claims' the 'book' has been making for some 1700 odd years, well they're just that: CLAIMS!!! And all rational people can tell the difference between a claim and a fact. The meaning(s) or the the claim(s) of the 'book' are not 'magically' factual, just because the material form of the 'book' is!!! That is prestidigitation my friend!!! Besides the fact that the 'book' of a bunch of words exists, the other fact I would agree with, is that you Eljay, - have interpreted some of the claims made in the 'book', and through faith, and exclusively for YOURSELF, - have elevated those claims to the special and personal domain of BELIEFS: that which constitutes something to be TRUE FOR YOU. To jump the line and call the claims of the 'book' 'FACTUAL', implying that it should be accepted as 'FACT' by all, is seriously illegitimate, as I pointed out in an earlier post. No need to go much further at this point. Back to you my master magician friend. :) |
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also , i didnt imply it NEEDED a label , I asked what label might motivate people to come and share instead of belittle MsHarmony....that label would be "The Christian Singles Forum" |
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