Okay, give me a source for that logic. My argument stemmed from a basic understanding of American history. If world history "for ages" has disproven this then please enlighten me.

The people with all the money are SQUARELY responsable for the economy. How can you logically argue otherwise? I am at a loss here. Thats like blaming someone without a gun for the rate of gun-fatalities.

Tentigers said, "This country was built by small businesses and the WORKING man. Not corportations and the rich."

Taxes are theft. Absolutely.

Say you, I and Andrew decide to vote on taxes. I and Andrew vote to tax the sh!t out of you. You didn't. Too bad, you're screwed now.

We could just as well stopped you on a dark corner and take what you have. There is absolutely no difference.

Currently, you are the majority that robs others. O.K. That only changes the characters in the above example, it changes not the substance of it.

#4 Bringing troops home?
I heard he was planning to withdraw troops. I predict, the majority of the troops won't be coming anywhere near home. He'll put them in harms way. Probably in Afghanistan.

You want examples? Every single one of these were done to achieve exactly what you propose to achieve.






* The creation of the Paris Commune in 1871, considered by communists to be the first attempt by the working class to establish a communist society.

* The 1917 communist revolution in Russia, known as the October Revolution and a part of the Russian Revolution. It resulted in the victory of the Bolsheviks and the creation of Soviet Russia, the predecessor of the Soviet Union.

* The German Revolution of 1918-1919, led by Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, which ended in defeat for the communists.

* The creation of the short-lived Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, which was defeated within a month by the German army and Freikorps.

* The Hungarian revolution of 1919, led by Béla Kun, which was also eventually defeated.

* The Chinese Revolution, final stage of the Chinese Civil War (1926-1949), that resulted in the victory of the Communist Party of China on mainland China in 1949.

* 1941-1945 People's Liberation War in Yugoslavia is waged by the Yugoslav Partisans under the command of Josip Broz Tito with Allied support against the invading forces of Nazi Germany and the pro-Nazi Croatian Ustase. The victorious partisans establish the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

* The August Revolution 1945 creating the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

* The Proclamation of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in 1948, when the Soviet-backed Workers Party of Korea, led by Kim Il-sung, announced the formation of the state of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

* The Cuban Revolution of 1959, in which Fidel Castro and the July 26 Movement overthrew the regime of Fulgencio Batista.

* Internal Conflict in Peru (1980-present) Comprised two rebellions by two different Marxist organizations. The Communist Party of Peru, also known as the "Shining Path" fought a bloody war beginning in 1980 with successive Peruvian governments both democratic and authoritarian in nature and independent paramilitaries organized by the government known as Ronda Campesina. The Shining Path attempted to enforce a very extreme brand of communism inspired by the beliefs of Mao Zedong the leader of the People's Republic of China from 1949-1976. The Shining Path opposed any form of democracy and committed numerous human rights violations. Another organization, known as the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), named after an Incan warrior Tupac Amaru began their own rebellion in 1982. The MRTA did not adhere to Maoism like the Shining Path, claimed to be fighting for democracy, believed in a more mainstream version of communism and modelled their movement on other leftwing guerrilla groups in Latin America. The MRTA and Shining Path quickly became bitter enemies and fought one another as well as the government of Peru. During the war atrocities were committed on all sides, but mostly by the Shining Path and the Peruvian military. Fighting goes on today with a small number of Shining Path cadres, however the movement has mostly been crushed and only operates in a very remote jungle region. Since the capture of Shining Path leader Abimael Guzman the organization has lost most of its earlier support. the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement was largely destroyed in 1997 after the Japanese embassy hostage crisis.

* The Indonesian revolution and Communist Party of Indonesia support for President Sukarno, which ended when Indonesian General Suharto removed President Sukarno from power and defeated the Communist Party of Indonesia, in 1965-1966.

* The First Indochina War in Vietnam that resulted in the defeat of the French at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, 1954, and brought the Communist Party of Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh to power in North Vietnam – a victory followed closely by the protracted guerrilla warfare-dominated Vietnam War (1957-1975), which in turn led to the Fall of Saigon and the driving-out of occupying U.S. military forces there, and the unification of North and South Vietnam by communist guerrilla forces into the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The conflict drastically changed neighboring Laos and Cambodia.

* The victory of the communist Pathet Lao/Lao People's Revolutionary Party in Laos by 1975, elinmating a coalition government with anti-communists led to the establishment of the communist-administered Lao People's Democratic Republic.

* The victory of the communist Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in 1975, establishing the Maoist regime known as "Democratic Kampuchea," with Pol Pot as dictator. In 1979 it was overthrown by former allies: communist neighbor Vietnam and another communist party faction, reconstituted as the Kampuchean People's Revolutionary Party.

* The Malayan Emergency when the Malayan Communist Party and communist guerillas fought against, and were defeated by, British and Malayan forces, 1948-1960.

* The Marxist-led Guinea-Bissauan Revolution in Guinea-Bissau, Africa, against Portugal, 1959-1974.
* The victory of the communist Mozambican Liberation Front in Mozambique, 1964-1975.

* Maoist-styled "Protracted People's War" in the Philippines, launched by the New People's Army in 1969 and continuing at present

* The victory of the communist Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola in Angola, 1975-2002, under Agostinho Neto and José Eduardo dos Santos.

* The overthrow of Emperor Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia by Mengistu Haile Mariam who then set up one-party Marxist-Leninist rule in Ethiopia by the communist Workers' Party of Ethiopia, 1977-1991, until they were defeated and expelled by the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front during a subsequent civil war.

* The 1978 Saur Revolution that brought the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan to power in Afghanistan. They were overthrown by the mujahedin in 1992.[1]

* The overthrow of Eric Gairy that brought the New Jewel Movement to power in Grenada from 1979 until 1983, when they were deposed by a U.S.-led invasion.

* The overthrow of Anastasio Somoza Debayle that brought the Sandinista National Liberation Front to power in Nicaragua from 1979 - 1990. They lost the February 25, 1990 elections and peacefully surrendered power. The Sandinistas where re-elected into office in 2006, their first electoral win since 1984. In 2006, the FSLN and their presidential candidate, former president Daniel Ortega ran on a democratic socialist political platform, void of earlier Marxist-Leninist rhetoric from two decades earlier.[2]

* The 1981-1992 rebellion by the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front or FMLN in El Salvador against successive military and civilian governments, ending with a peace treaty. Like the FSLN (Sandinistas]], the FMLN where not an entirely Marxist organization. Instead they existed as a coalition of numerous leftwing groups opposed to El Salvador's government. Today the FMLN exists as a democratic socialist political party, the second largest party in El Salvador.

* From 1996-2006, the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) fought a fairly successful revolutionary war against the autocratic King of Nepal. In 2006 peace was declared, and an agreement was reached that the Maoist would join an interim government.

* In India, various Maoist-oriented factions (generally called Naxalites) have waged armed struggles since Naxalbari rebellion of 1967. Today, the most prominent Naxalite group is the Communist Party of India (Maoist).

Economics is nothing to do with goods and services but how people make choices and how those choices impact our lives and the lives of others.

I never said the rich were the backbone of the nation, they are the backbone of the workforce - meaning that the rich are the ones that have the jobs. If they cease to exist and their endeavors along with them, you no longer have jobs for the middle class. Punishing the successful will result in the failure of all. Quote me on that in 2 years or so.



This is a completely unacceptable scenario. If you "save" the middle class at the expense of the rich, you increase the size of the middle class while decreasing the base in the rich that you are taking from - it's a vicious cycle that results in failure. The middle class will never disappear - only be redefined. As it sits, some are still moving up the ladder to the upper middle and rich classes as some are sliding from those down. That is the nature of capitalism.

"To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.'" --Thomas Jefferson

AndrewAV,

The middle class is shrinking. More and more are falling into the lower income bracket.

Too bad that only few care about the substance of America. Thanks to the department of education.

May-be so. How do you go from stating a problem to deciding on a robbery, is the question.

And the rich fall into the middle class - that is the nature of recession. You can't stop it and we need to stop trying. By taxing the **** out of the rich, you are first going to kill jobs because they are not going to fall a class without a fight. Then, anyone that has enough savings will sell off and up and leave. Yeah, they're in it for #1, just like everyone else. The difference is they're by themselves and there is a mob below them that has strength in numbers. I'll say it again, taxing the rich is not going to fix anything.

They are just taxing them at the same rate as pre-Bush times.

But they're not operating in pre-Bush times, are they. They have had these rates for nearly 8 years and have developed a business plan around them. Taxes are an expense off the bottom line. if you can sell so many items per year made by x employees and end up with a certain income, by increasing expenses, you must now increase that bottom line. We're in a recession so expansion is pretty much out of the question and that leaves one option: cutbacks.

You don't pay taxes on net income, you pay off of gross, or your total sales before you deduct any expenses. Every business over that line will now have to redesign their business plan and the first thing to go will be variable expenses, or those that go up or down based on your producion. This can't include the factors of production because without them, you have no final good. The single most expendible cost on a budget is labor. Plain and simple. Tax the rich and unemployment will rise.

Winx,
You are right.
Giving tax breaks to the rich in hopes of benefiting off the trickle down theory has been tried for years.
It doesnt work.
The idea that the rich would somehow quit trying to make money because their taxes go up a little is preposterous.
It would be the same as when your taxes are raised.
Nothing.......
Because you will still need to work to survive and pay your bills. More than likely you will just work more OT,
even though you know it will put you in a higher tax bracket.

Like you and me,
The rich will just increase their production just to make that extra and add to their profits.
The only way they would stop this is, if their taxes take all their efforts to increase their profits.

The Rich are too greedy to just quit if they still stand to make a profit. Just like you or me, only on a much greater scale, the rich will just worked harder and grumble a little more.

I would much rather make 1 mill and pay 100,000 in taxes a year, than make 4 hundred and pay 100 dollars in taxes a week.

You're forgetting one thing, Fanta.

Sooner or latter you come to a point, where the other job pays better. Some people work at sucking job all their life, afraid to say "no". Others, know this from the very beginning, and actively seek better one.

Same with the rich. There are places that tax less. Keep raising taxes and increasing regulation, removing their freedoms to act in accordance with their wishes, and pretty soon, you will drive them to that other place, that didn't look so good to begin with.

This has already happened to unions. They drove their employers overseas. Same will happen to the rich. They will leave, and you will be hired by your government that taxes you to pay you.

This greed you have, will not do you any good. But here I am striking onto what's moral. Who am I fooling? You're not into moral:

I like unions. My city is big on them. We have many. They are the middle class.

Peotective tariffs, and the fact that America is the largest market in the world, will take care of that!

You say,
"This has already happened to unions. They drove their employers overseas. Same will happen to the rich. They will leave, and you will be hired by your government that taxes you to pay you."

This is ass backwards,,,

The corps, by lobbiest and through paid politicians, passed legislation which led to the destruction of the unions. All because the Unions had the last, and obvious, ability to unite large groups of working Americans who stood in the way of their dreams of globalization.

After lifting the tariffs and destroying the unions. It became cheaper to produce the products in countries with a cheap labor source, no Safety laws, or environmental regulations.
And then transport them here to sell.
In the worlds largest consumer market.
Cheaper than producing it 10 miles from Wally world.
That's when our jobs left......

There is truth to what you're saying, namely, that corporations do have an ability to lobby and corrupt politicians.

Thus, they have a weapon against unions, for instance.

Why is it possible to lobby the government, and to corrupt politicians?

obama had rather have everyone poor than give everyone the chance to be rich.he is clueless.and is destroying free interprise.we dont have the money .war isnt forever he wants to make all the entitlement permanent.before he is through the whole u.s.a. will look like nancys california.broke and helpless to do anything about it.but dems will never learn even history doesnt teach them.the new deal prolonged the great depression.it wasnt until ww2 did we get out of it and let free inerprise make america great.not only is he breaking americas back .he is putting us in a verry vulnerable position with our enemys.