its an example of Gods judgment,,,,I will leave the rest to interpretation,,,

the issue is, muslims are HUMANS first, and we can no more determine what the SPECIFIC beliefs of over a billion different individuals will be than we can any group of a billion humans,, to advocate for the disappearance of such a large number of individuals doesnt SEEM exactly like brotherly love

I don't advocate the disappearance of them.

I advocate the end of their religion. That can happen without them going anywhere.

Similar to Funches trying to dissuade all from Christianity.

If I am guilty of the things Funches says - He is guilty of the same things towards Christians.

it just wasnt worded that way, thats all,,,it wasnt stated, if we got rid of ISLAM,,,,it was stated if there were no MUSLIMS


and I would suspect ISLAM is also responsible for encouraging many peaceful and loving people as well(contrary to popular insistence)

, so I wouldnt want to get rid of IT either

I've got a great idea. End their religion and also end Christianity.

End all religions.

Then you might have more peace in the world.

I'm with you on ending the Muslim religion but only if you also end Christianity. After all, they basically worship the SAME GOD.

ALLAH AND JEHOVAH ARE THE SAME GUY.

They are both the God of War.

good luck agreeing on which beliefs qualify as 'religion'

It doesn't matter. Any organized religion that has a church.
Get rid of all of them.

Let people have their own beliefs. Stop trying to make them conform to a church doctrine.

Beliefs are not religions.

Ok,

How about we just cull out the really antisocial aspects of it? I can live with that!

so would that involve REFUSING the right of people to organize BASED upon their beliefs?

what in having an organization implies that people arent being able to have their own beliefs?

According to Muslims, Allah was the god of Abraham. Jews and Christians believe Jehovah was the god of Abraham. So isn't it the same entity known in different names?

Also, for centuries Christians have been slaughtering people who would not CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY. Including Jews, and not more that two generations ago. (World war II)

So there is not much difference in the religions. Christians just deny their bloody past because they have become more civilized. The Muslims just need to evolve into a more civilized group. They are just a bit slower. Give them another couple of generations.

I must respectfully disagree with you.

They are not the same...

I'm making a point.

I'm just saying that if mylifetoday wants to get rid of the Muslim religion, then its only fair that we get rid of Christianity too.

People already have "their own beliefs." But when you have an organized religion, or denomination, you are expected to CONFORM TO THE NORM.

Morningsong expects Cowboy to conform to her beliefs about Christianity or she tells him if he can't then he should stop calling himself a Christian.

Why not let him believe what he wants? Why not let him call it anything that he wants?

That's what I mean about organized religion. They expect conformity of beliefs.

How on earth would you know that? According to Muslims, Allah was the god of Abraham. Jews and Christians believe Jehovah was the god of Abraham.

These two (actually three) religions are Abrahamic religions. They have the same history. They are the same God.

Christianity did not call for the slaughter of anyone.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. There is nothing in anything Jesus has ever said that could be interpreted as violence towards nonbelievers. The same cannot be said of Muhammad.

As for Hitler draw your own conclusions:

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian German culture, and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."[7]

Historian Joachim Fest wrote, "Hitler knew, through the constant invocation of the God the Lord (German: Herrgott) or of providence (German: Vorsehung), to make the impression of a godly way of thought."[8] He used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity," according to biographer Ian Kershaw. Kershaw adds that Hitler's ability also succeeded in appeasing possible Church resistance to anti-Christian Nazi Party radicals.[9] For example, on March 23, 1933, he addressed the Reichstag: "The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."[10]

According to Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his death, although it was Speer's opinion that "he had no real attachment to it."[11] According to biographer John Toland, Hitler was still "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite his detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within himself its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God — so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty."[12] However, Hitler's own words from Mein Kampf seem to conflict with the idea that his antisemitism was religiously motivated. From childhood onward, Hitler seems to have continued to reject antisemitism or anti-Judaism based on religious arguments like the deicide claim:

There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their Faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.

Then I came to Vienna.

Confused by the mass of impressions I received from the architectural surroundings and depressed by my own troubles, I did not at first distinguish between the different social strata of which the population of that mammoth city was composed. Although Vienna then had about two hundred thousand Jews among its population of two millions, I did not notice them. During the first weeks of my sojourn my eyes and my mind were unable to cope with the onrush of new ideas and values. Not until I gradually settled down to my surroundings, and the confused picture began to grow clearer, did I acquire a more discriminating view of my new world. And with that I came up against the Jewish problem.

I will not say that the manner in which I first became acquainted with it was particularly unpleasant for me. In the Jew I still saw only a man who was of a different religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I was against the idea that he should be attacked because he had a different faith. And so I considered that the tone adopted by the anti-Semitic Press in Vienna was unworthy of the cultural traditions of a great people. The memory of certain events which happened in the Middle Ages came into my mind, and I felt that I should not like to see them repeated....[13]

According to historian Richard Steigmann-Gall, much is known about Hitler's views on religion through Hitler's book, Mein Kampf.[14] In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote neither as an atheist, an agnostic, nor as a believer in a remote, rationalist divinity. Instead he expressed his belief in one providential, active, deity:

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe...Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence."[14]

In an attempt to justify Nazi intolerance he recommends militantism, which he associates with Christianity's rise to Roman state religion, as a model for the Nazis in their pursuit of power, while simultaneously lamenting the demise of Pre-Christian Roman Religion,

The individual may establish with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror entered into the far freer ancient world, but he will not be able to contest the fact that since then the world has been afflicted and dominated by this coercion, and that coercion is broken only by coercion, and terror only by terror. Only then can a new state of affairs be constructively created. Political parties are inclined to compromises; philosophies never. Political parties even reckon with opponents; philosophies proclaim their infallibility. [15]

Elsewhere in Mein Kampf Hitler speaks of the "creator of the universe" and "eternal Providence." He also states his belief that the Aryan race was created by God, and that it would be a sin to dilute it through racial intermixing. Hitler writes:

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.[16]

According to Steigmann-Gall, Hitler's reference to God as the "Lord of Creation" and the necessity of obeying "His will" along with several references to Jesus, reveals the infusion of Christianity into his thinking. Other sources also show Hitler's Christian thinking, according to Steigmann-Gall. He notes an unpublished manuscript where Hitler sketched out his world-view with similar Christian references, and he gives as an example a speech on April 1922 where Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God." Finally, Steigmann-Gall gives another example where in a private Nazi meeting Hitler again stated the centrality of Jesus' teachings to the Nazi movement.[17]

Derek Hastings sees Hitler's commitment to Christianity as more tenuous. He considers it "eminently plausible" that Hitler was a believing Catholic as late as his trial in 1924, but writes that "there is little doubt that Hitler was a staunch opponent of Christianity throughout the duration of the Third Reich." [18]

Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations.
Thomas Jefferson


we dont necessarily become more 'civilized' with evolution,,,sometimes we loose as much as we gain, if not more

Because there are very specific beliefs all Christians hold as Truth. If you disagree with one of these truths then you are not a Christian.

Calling yourself a Christian in those circumstances is akin to me saying I represent women even though I have no clue what giving birth will ever be like.

I am not a woman - obviously - if you aren't a Christian - you have no right to call yourself a Christian.

He can believe whatever he wants. But if he doesn't accept the fundamental truths of Christianity, he should not claim to be Christian. Because in truth, he is not until he does.

I still have a hard time understanding how people can seriously today say Christians are the same or worse than Muslims. That is like saying night is day because the moon cast light as well...

You don't know your own religion's history. You are in denial. Its not just Hitler I am talking about. Its the Catholic Church (which btw,supported Hitler.)

They have killed heretics for centuries, they have killed pagans, they have killed outspoken women. There was a sect of priests (Jesuits) whose job it was to kill certain heretics who disagreed with the Catholic doctrine.

In case you don't know it, the Catholic Church is the foundation of CHRISTIANITY. It is the mother of all Christian Churches. Protestants were heretics. Many were killed.

Evil begets Evil. Your religion does not have clean hands.

And they believe the same about Christianity.. I said that they just need to catch up to the modern world and become more civilized. They have been kept in the dark and in the third world for a long time.

There was a time when Christianity was not so civilized.

organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything

some individuals EXPECT you to agree with what they believe, whatever that is,,,,and yet we still all have the CHOICE to do it or not based upon our personal experiences,,

I am expected to conform , by some, to the notion that the FLAG should be an idol that is equivalent in value to a physical life,, yet because of my personal experiences I choose not to believe such a thing

everyone that sees the flag doesnt see it the same way, but that doesnt mean that there is no good or no use for people to have an idea of what (if anything) the flag represents to them

and when you have seven billion people on the earth, you may get quite a large number who might agree on something occasionally and who may want to organize to congregate with each other and be more visible to the likeminded

I would never want to see that taken away if the MISSION was not one that was AIMED At harming others physically

I wouldnt want Islam erased anymore than I would Christianity, because, to me, they represent the humans ability to seek something beyond themself(Whether they agree on what that is or not)

That is what the Catholic Church said at one time when protestants broke away. They were heretics. Many were killed.




From where I stand he is just as Christian as you are. He just has his own denomination. From where you stand, he is a heretic.

He may be the founder of the next Christian church that splits from protestants. LOL