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| Topic: Humans, Humans we have gone through enough | |
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ALLAH AND JEHOVAH ARE THE SAME GUY. I must respectfully disagree with you. They are not the same... How on earth would you know that? According to Muslims, Allah was the god of Abraham. Jews and Christians believe Jehovah was the god of Abraham. These two (actually three) religions are Abrahamic religions. They have the same history. They are the same God. Well, it is quite simple really. Jews do not believe Christians worship the same God. And from what I know of the Muslim religion --- their God is nothing like the Christian God. They say it is --- doesn't make it so... |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 05/27/11 11:16 PM
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msharmony said:
organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything
Mylifetoday just said this: "Because there are very specific beliefs all Christians hold as Truth. If you disagree with one of these truths then you are not a Christian."
THERE YOU HAVE IT! Your answer. Yes "organized religion" expects you to conform or you are not "a Christian." |
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Christianity did not call for the slaughter of anyone.
You don't know your own religion's history. You are in denial. Its not just Hitler I am talking about. Its the Catholic Church (which btw,supported Hitler.) They have killed heretics for centuries, they have killed pagans, they have killed outspoken women. There was a sect of priests (Jesuits) whose job it was to kill certain heretics who disagreed with the Catholic doctrine. In case you don't know it, the Catholic Church is the foundation of CHRISTIANITY. It is the mother of all Christian Churches. Protestants were heretics. Many were killed. Evil begets Evil. Your religion does not have clean hands. Again: Christianity does not call for the killing of people that hold different beliefs. It does however call for fighting evil where you find it. The Catholic Stance on Hitler --- Neutral: From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol12.htm Involvement in the Nazi Holocaust: The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear. As Eugenio Pacelli (1876 - 1958), he was the Vatican's envoy to Germany in the 1920's. As the Vatican's secretary of state, he negotiated a Concordat with Germany in the 1930s. This granted Roman Catholics freedom of worship. However, the Church agreed to become much less politically active. He became pope in 1939 at the start of World War II in Europe. The pope's policy of neutrality may have been the least worse course. If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "...the Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps..." 1 Some people have a distorted view of Pope Pius XII because of Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play, "The Deputy" in which the Pope was portrayed as coldly indifferent to the Jews. There are a few facts that are generally accepted: Positive items: bullet The phrase "righteous among nations" is a term which refers to non-Jews who helped saved Jews from the Nazis. It could be argued that Pius XII would certainly qualify for this honor, because he saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from death. One account estimates 750,000 lives saved. 2 Pinchas E. Lapide estimated 860,000. 3 bullet Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- in his wartime Christmas messages and at other times. However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities. bullet Some Jewish groups, asked the Pope to remain neutral during the war so that he would be more helpful diplomatically. bullet The church did directly condemn the Nazi policy of murdering mentally and physically disabled Germans in the 1930's. The Nazi's discontinued the program for a while. bullet The Vatican hid 477 Jews during the war. Another 4,238 were hidden in church monasteries and convents. 4 bullet The pope spoke to a few select officials in private, encouraging them to help Jewish victims. 4 bullet In 1942, Pope Pius XII was preparing a statement condemning Nazi persecution of Jews. But he decided to not make it public because of events in the Netherlands. As noted above, Dutch bishops had protested against the exportation of Dutch Jews, with disastrous consequences. bullet "In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason." 5 Negative items: bullet Although informed of the massive Nazi attacks of synagogues and Jewish business in on Kristallnacht 1938-NOV, Pope Pius XII issued no public criticism. bullet Although informed during 1940 to 1943 of Nazi atrocities in at least Austria, Lithuania, Poland, Spain, and the Ukraine, (including deportations to death camps) he made no public comments. 4 bullet Pope Pius XII "...never explicitly spoke out against Hitler." Actually, this is in error. He did condemn Hitler in a speech to the College of Cardinals, one month after the war ended. 2 bullet "He refused to join a resolution of the Allies condemning the Nazi crimes." 2 bullet "He never excommunicated any Nazi," 7 although he did excommunicate some German Catholics who supported cremation as an alternative to burial. bullet "He never declared it a sin for Catholics to participate in the slaughter." 2 bullet In 1941 when asked about proposed anti-Jewish laws in Vichy France, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews. 4 |
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Christianity did not call for the slaughter of anyone.
You don't know your own religion's history. You are in denial. Its not just Hitler I am talking about. Its the Catholic Church (which btw,supported Hitler.) They have killed heretics for centuries, they have killed pagans, they have killed outspoken women. There was a sect of priests (Jesuits) whose job it was to kill certain heretics who disagreed with the Catholic doctrine. In case you don't know it, the Catholic Church is the foundation of CHRISTIANITY. It is the mother of all Christian Churches. Protestants were heretics. Many were killed. Evil begets Evil. Your religion does not have clean hands. Again: Christianity does not call for the killing of people that hold different beliefs. It does however call for fighting evil where you find it. The Catholic Stance on Hitler --- Neutral: From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol12.htm Involvement in the Nazi Holocaust: The precise roles that the Roman Catholic Church played during the Nazi Holocaust is not known in depth. In particular activities by Pope Pius XII are not clear. As Eugenio Pacelli (1876 - 1958), he was the Vatican's envoy to Germany in the 1920's. As the Vatican's secretary of state, he negotiated a Concordat with Germany in the 1930s. This granted Roman Catholics freedom of worship. However, the Church agreed to become much less politically active. He became pope in 1939 at the start of World War II in Europe. The pope's policy of neutrality may have been the least worse course. If he were to attack Hitler or his policies directly, then the Nazis might have retaliated. "...the Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps..." 1 Some people have a distorted view of Pope Pius XII because of Rolf Hochhuth's 1963 play, "The Deputy" in which the Pope was portrayed as coldly indifferent to the Jews. There are a few facts that are generally accepted: Positive items: bullet The phrase "righteous among nations" is a term which refers to non-Jews who helped saved Jews from the Nazis. It could be argued that Pius XII would certainly qualify for this honor, because he saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from death. One account estimates 750,000 lives saved. 2 Pinchas E. Lapide estimated 860,000. 3 bullet Pius XII did publicly condemn racist oppression -- in his wartime Christmas messages and at other times. However, the language that he used was so vague that it did not clearly refer to Nazi atrocities. bullet Some Jewish groups, asked the Pope to remain neutral during the war so that he would be more helpful diplomatically. bullet The church did directly condemn the Nazi policy of murdering mentally and physically disabled Germans in the 1930's. The Nazi's discontinued the program for a while. bullet The Vatican hid 477 Jews during the war. Another 4,238 were hidden in church monasteries and convents. 4 bullet The pope spoke to a few select officials in private, encouraging them to help Jewish victims. 4 bullet In 1942, Pope Pius XII was preparing a statement condemning Nazi persecution of Jews. But he decided to not make it public because of events in the Netherlands. As noted above, Dutch bishops had protested against the exportation of Dutch Jews, with disastrous consequences. bullet "In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews; the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a 'special blessing' to the Pope 'for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy'; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel's Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason." 5 Negative items: bullet Although informed of the massive Nazi attacks of synagogues and Jewish business in on Kristallnacht 1938-NOV, Pope Pius XII issued no public criticism. bullet Although informed during 1940 to 1943 of Nazi atrocities in at least Austria, Lithuania, Poland, Spain, and the Ukraine, (including deportations to death camps) he made no public comments. 4 bullet Pope Pius XII "...never explicitly spoke out against Hitler." Actually, this is in error. He did condemn Hitler in a speech to the College of Cardinals, one month after the war ended. 2 bullet "He refused to join a resolution of the Allies condemning the Nazi crimes." 2 bullet "He never excommunicated any Nazi," 7 although he did excommunicate some German Catholics who supported cremation as an alternative to burial. bullet "He never declared it a sin for Catholics to participate in the slaughter." 2 bullet In 1941 when asked about proposed anti-Jewish laws in Vichy France, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews. 4 |
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msharmony said: organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything
Mylifetoday just said this: "Because there are very specific beliefs all Christians hold as Truth. If you disagree with one of these truths then you are not a Christian."
THERE YOU HAVE IT! Your answer. Yes "organized religion" expects you to conform or you are not "a Christian." if by organized religion you mean,, mylifetoday |
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I'm going to address the subject of the O.P. and not get into all the religious bickering, so anyone who responds with any religious bickering will be ignored. I once read something called "The report from Iron Mountain" Which was said to be a study of the effects of world peace if it were ever achieved. Very interesting report, regardless if you believe the story about how it was compiled. The conclusions were not very promising. Governments would fall, countries would become non-existent. The economy as we know it would be completely destroyed. This world and this galaxy is all about war and conquest. There was even a war in heaven if you believe that. This war in heaven could have been a galactic conflict between non-human alien life forms. There are many different factions, races, etc. operating in this world and they are vying for control and power. Its all about energy. Everything is about energy in the physical world because there are limits to energy here. It is a finite world. The big fish eats the little fish. Its all about money, power, energy. It is never going to change. This is not paradise, this is the physical world. Having said that, it is as it should be. Universal law is at work here in this world. It is a world of duality. War and peace, good and evil, black and white, male and female, etc. It is fantasy island. Have you ever seen the movie "Demolition Man?" One man's idea of "peace" was being lived in the city, and the people who wanted freedom were living underground. In the world of "peace" there were laws against eating meat, cursing, fighting, etc. There was a law against physically having sex. They did it electronically to avoid diseases. Children were created in test tubes. The point it, there must be diversity if you want freedom. There must be diversity if you want to have choices and free will. You must allow diversity or there is no freedom. You cannot have peace except within yourself. That is where you will find it. You cannot force it on other people without depriving them of diversity and freedom. life is a BALANCING act,,,well stated Jeannie 
Ok so if you agree with this.......than the whole notion of majority rules law really shouldn't be should it? Because then you are dictating for everyone what is good or bad, instead of just making those choices for yourself and yourself only. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 05/28/11 08:49 AM
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msharmony said: organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything
Mylifetoday just said this: "Because there are very specific beliefs all Christians hold as Truth. If you disagree with one of these truths then you are not a Christian."
THERE YOU HAVE IT! Your answer. Yes "organized religion" expects you to conform or you are not "a Christian." if by organized religion you mean,, mylifetoday You're still in denial here, mylifetoday is far from the only one who thinks this way. Face it, every denomination thinks their way is the only right way, and all others are simply wrong, with grave punishments for those who don't think like them. If that isn't the definition of expecting conformity, I don't know what is. Catholicism is particularly guilty of this. I was completely cast out from my's dad side of the family when I left their Church a few years ago. Lord knows what they'd think if they knew I rejected all religion entirely now. I lost a friend I had known for a year or two, when my beliefs changed to non religious and I started to speak out against religion. Is this really the fruit of a peaceful group? Somehow I don't think so. All religion does is divide the people and pit them against each other. If you dissolve the religions, you will end the division as well. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 05/28/11 08:52 AM
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good luck agreeing on which beliefs qualify as 'religion' It doesn't matter. Any organized religion that has a church. Get rid of all of them. Let people have their own beliefs. Stop trying to make them conform to a church doctrine. Beliefs are not religions. so would that involve REFUSING the right of people to organize BASED upon their beliefs? what in having an organization implies that people arent being able to have their own beliefs? I'm making a point. I'm just saying that if mylifetoday wants to get rid of the Muslim religion, then its only fair that we get rid of Christianity too. People already have "their own beliefs." But when you have an organized religion, or denomination, you are expected to CONFORM TO THE NORM. Morningsong expects Cowboy to conform to her beliefs about Christianity or she tells him if he can't then he should stop calling himself a Christian. Why not let him believe what he wants? Why not let him call it anything that he wants? That's what I mean about organized religion. They expect conformity of beliefs. organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything some individuals EXPECT you to agree with what they believe, whatever that is,,,,and yet we still all have the CHOICE to do it or not based upon our personal experiences,, Here's the problem with that. You can't truly have an honest choice, IF the choice you make to believe in something or not to believe in something dictates whether or not you are cast out from a particular group of people. There's a term for that, and I believe it'd be called stacking the deck. |
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Don't the priests or bishops whip themselves sometimes to repent?? I so often see this in medieval movies. Do they still do this today funches? If so there is your answer to that. They do enjoy such treatment, but they do it to repent or be cleaned off sins they have done. Kind of a punishment onto themselves believing god is punishing them for their wrong doings. priests whipping is one example how Christians use their religion as a way to abuse themselves and claim it to be Love...that's what I meant about how Christian Love provides no distintion or guidelines as to when the Love is abuse and because it provide no guidelines is how Christians use their religion to abuse and threaten others not of their faith and call it Love For Example: this debate started because "mylifetoday" posted that there would only be peace if there were no muslims ...is that comment a sign of Christians Love or is it a sign of Christian Hate flown under the flag of Love hmmm,,philosophy is interesting,,,, if the doctor commits malpractice,,,is that a sign of a doctors 'hypocrtic oath' or is a sign of doctors incompetence disguised as medicine? or is it the sign of someone who has been deemed a doctor and either willfully or accidentally fallen short of their obligations? MsHarmony...as usual your analogies generally leave key points out of the equation.... for example....the doctor saying there would be no malpractice if there were no patients just as "mylifetoday" said that they can be no peace unless there were no muslims great,, use that example then if the doctor says there will be no malpractice without patients, is that a comment on medicine or 'doctors' , or is it a comment on how even medicine can be misused by some doctors? or is it just an example of one DOCTOR who willfully or accidentally was mistaken in his CHOICE? once again MsHarmony your analogies have left another key part out of the equation...for example...if the doctor mention that without patients there would be no malpractice...then why are you leaving the patients out of your equations ,,,,,things that make you go hmmmmm? (but which in no way condemn medicine or religion at large)
what should be going hummmmmm is the fact that you've already commented on "mylifetoday" posts are being Muslim Hatred ....and I was just trying to make the point that his muslim hatred is flown under the flag of being Christian Love or not,,,even using the parts I 'left out', the analogy remains valid and if that is your point, it wasnt clear in this statement 'is that comment a sign of Christians Love or is it a sign of Christian Hate flown under the flag of Love' if the point is people can personally claim love under ANY umbrella, there is no argument except in this case since "mylifetoday" is a Christian and required to love even his enemies... therefore his muslim hatred is being sheltered under a "Christian Love" Umbrella ..unless of course you wish to claim that a "True Christian" wouldn't make such comments mylifetoday is a christian who is willfully or unintentionally abusing his christian duties, just as the doctor in the case of malpractice that I mentioned above that doctors personal oversight doesnt shed a bad light on medicine and mylifes oversight of brotherly love sheds no bad light on Christianity those individual actions and choices are a reflexion of the imperfect PERSON who decided upon them,,, since there are no guidelines as to when Christian Love becomes abuse then then why are claiming that "mylifetoday' is abusing his Christians duties...all he is required to do is claim that he love all muslims even through he wish they all just disappeared so there can be peace lol,, well, I think Christ actually said it a different way Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" "Jesus said to him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your mind and with all your soul… and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Jesus Christ, Matthew 22:36-40) I dont recall Jesus implying that the answer to anything was that sinners 'disappear' ,,,,we are more than any one belief, thought or action,, wanting any of those small parts to change is a total different extreme than wishing harm to a person, no less wishing they will 'disappear' well you might not recall Jesus implying that "sinners" disappear but do you recall Jesus saiding to turn the other cheek...but let's face it...he won't be doing that in the battle at Armageddon as he show his Christian Love by slicing and dicing those pesty sinners Jesus will killed sinners in this battle under the concept of Christian love in which he is require to love all as he kills them.. which is no different than 'mylifetoday' comment on wishing that all the muslims disappear..... so is Jesus not turning the other cheek an example of him abusing his Christian teachings hmm,, is my driving a car an example of me abusing my teachings of my children to not even turn the KEY of a car.....lol If only I had ENOUGH interest, ,back and forths can go all night,,, 
I suppose if I ever have an existence where I live a perfect life and die for the sins of others, where I am the word or the way, I might earn the PRIVILEGE/RESPONSIBILITY of such severe judgment but until that day, I am like a child and what applies to children does not always apply to adults,,,, oh my god ...oops....er... I meant oh no not your off the mark analogies again ...come on MsHarmony...you allowing your underage children to go James Dean and hot rodding in your car is not the same as Jesus going Clint Eastwood make my day on sinners so can we stick to the religious aspect of the current topic of debate instead of you resorting to devious ways of going off the debate so again is Jesus killing those that he claim that he love in the battle at Armegeddon an example of Christian Required Love its an example of Gods judgment,,,,I will leave the rest to interpretation,,, so Jesus killing under the banner of Christian Love according to you is an example of God's judgement....well I guess that answers the question whether Jesus had "Free Will" or not ..appears all he ever was "In The Beginning" was God's Love puppet |
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I'm going to address the subject of the O.P. and not get into all the religious bickering, so anyone who responds with any religious bickering will be ignored. I once read something called "The report from Iron Mountain" Which was said to be a study of the effects of world peace if it were ever achieved. Very interesting report, regardless if you believe the story about how it was compiled. The conclusions were not very promising. Governments would fall, countries would become non-existent. The economy as we know it would be completely destroyed. This world and this galaxy is all about war and conquest. There was even a war in heaven if you believe that. This war in heaven could have been a galactic conflict between non-human alien life forms. There are many different factions, races, etc. operating in this world and they are vying for control and power. Its all about energy. Everything is about energy in the physical world because there are limits to energy here. It is a finite world. The big fish eats the little fish. Its all about money, power, energy. It is never going to change. This is not paradise, this is the physical world. Having said that, it is as it should be. Universal law is at work here in this world. It is a world of duality. War and peace, good and evil, black and white, male and female, etc. It is fantasy island. Have you ever seen the movie "Demolition Man?" One man's idea of "peace" was being lived in the city, and the people who wanted freedom were living underground. In the world of "peace" there were laws against eating meat, cursing, fighting, etc. There was a law against physically having sex. They did it electronically to avoid diseases. Children were created in test tubes. The point it, there must be diversity if you want freedom. There must be diversity if you want to have choices and free will. You must allow diversity or there is no freedom. You cannot have peace except within yourself. That is where you will find it. You cannot force it on other people without depriving them of diversity and freedom. life is a BALANCING act,,,well stated Jeannie
Ok so if you agree with this.......than the whole notion of majority rules law really shouldn't be should it? Because then you are dictating for everyone what is good or bad, instead of just making those choices for yourself and yourself only. not really, majority rules is the agreed upon foundation of the DEMOCRACY our 'founders' created BALANCE is what we should seek for ourself,,,,they dont exclude one another |
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msharmony said: organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything
Mylifetoday just said this: "Because there are very specific beliefs all Christians hold as Truth. If you disagree with one of these truths then you are not a Christian."
THERE YOU HAVE IT! Your answer. Yes "organized religion" expects you to conform or you are not "a Christian." if by organized religion you mean,, mylifetoday You're still in denial here, mylifetoday is far from the only one who thinks this way. Face it, every denomination thinks their way is the only right way, and all others are simply wrong, with grave punishments for those who don't think like them. If that isn't the definition of expecting conformity, I don't know what is. Catholicism is particularly guilty of this. I was completely cast out from my's dad side of the family when I left their Church a few years ago. Lord knows what they'd think if they knew I rejected all religion entirely now. I lost a friend I had known for a year or two, when my beliefs changed to non religious and I started to speak out against religion. Is this really the fruit of a peaceful group? Somehow I don't think so. All religion does is divide the people and pit them against each other. If you dissolve the religions, you will end the division as well. Im in denial of nothing here. So what if mylifetoday DOES feel that way and isnt alone? I feel differently and I am not alone either. Yet, we are both human beings who have chosen the religion of CHRISTIANITY,,nothing dictates that we will interpret it the same way and nothing dictates that either of us are spokespersons for the WHOLE religion. |
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good luck agreeing on which beliefs qualify as 'religion' It doesn't matter. Any organized religion that has a church. Get rid of all of them. Let people have their own beliefs. Stop trying to make them conform to a church doctrine. Beliefs are not religions. so would that involve REFUSING the right of people to organize BASED upon their beliefs? what in having an organization implies that people arent being able to have their own beliefs? I'm making a point. I'm just saying that if mylifetoday wants to get rid of the Muslim religion, then its only fair that we get rid of Christianity too. People already have "their own beliefs." But when you have an organized religion, or denomination, you are expected to CONFORM TO THE NORM. Morningsong expects Cowboy to conform to her beliefs about Christianity or she tells him if he can't then he should stop calling himself a Christian. Why not let him believe what he wants? Why not let him call it anything that he wants? That's what I mean about organized religion. They expect conformity of beliefs. organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything some individuals EXPECT you to agree with what they believe, whatever that is,,,,and yet we still all have the CHOICE to do it or not based upon our personal experiences,, Here's the problem with that. You can't truly have an honest choice, IF the choice you make to believe in something or not to believe in something dictates whether or not you are cast out from a particular group of people. There's a term for that, and I believe it'd be called stacking the deck. I guess that depends upon the definition of choice,, I was taught if there are OPTIONS(however undesirable) There is a choice. And there are always options to EVERY thing(Besides being born). |
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Don't the priests or bishops whip themselves sometimes to repent?? I so often see this in medieval movies. Do they still do this today funches? If so there is your answer to that. They do enjoy such treatment, but they do it to repent or be cleaned off sins they have done. Kind of a punishment onto themselves believing god is punishing them for their wrong doings. priests whipping is one example how Christians use their religion as a way to abuse themselves and claim it to be Love...that's what I meant about how Christian Love provides no distintion or guidelines as to when the Love is abuse and because it provide no guidelines is how Christians use their religion to abuse and threaten others not of their faith and call it Love For Example: this debate started because "mylifetoday" posted that there would only be peace if there were no muslims ...is that comment a sign of Christians Love or is it a sign of Christian Hate flown under the flag of Love hmmm,,philosophy is interesting,,,, if the doctor commits malpractice,,,is that a sign of a doctors 'hypocrtic oath' or is a sign of doctors incompetence disguised as medicine? or is it the sign of someone who has been deemed a doctor and either willfully or accidentally fallen short of their obligations? MsHarmony...as usual your analogies generally leave key points out of the equation.... for example....the doctor saying there would be no malpractice if there were no patients just as "mylifetoday" said that they can be no peace unless there were no muslims great,, use that example then if the doctor says there will be no malpractice without patients, is that a comment on medicine or 'doctors' , or is it a comment on how even medicine can be misused by some doctors? or is it just an example of one DOCTOR who willfully or accidentally was mistaken in his CHOICE? once again MsHarmony your analogies have left another key part out of the equation...for example...if the doctor mention that without patients there would be no malpractice...then why are you leaving the patients out of your equations ,,,,,things that make you go hmmmmm? (but which in no way condemn medicine or religion at large)
what should be going hummmmmm is the fact that you've already commented on "mylifetoday" posts are being Muslim Hatred ....and I was just trying to make the point that his muslim hatred is flown under the flag of being Christian Love or not,,,even using the parts I 'left out', the analogy remains valid and if that is your point, it wasnt clear in this statement 'is that comment a sign of Christians Love or is it a sign of Christian Hate flown under the flag of Love' if the point is people can personally claim love under ANY umbrella, there is no argument except in this case since "mylifetoday" is a Christian and required to love even his enemies... therefore his muslim hatred is being sheltered under a "Christian Love" Umbrella ..unless of course you wish to claim that a "True Christian" wouldn't make such comments mylifetoday is a christian who is willfully or unintentionally abusing his christian duties, just as the doctor in the case of malpractice that I mentioned above that doctors personal oversight doesnt shed a bad light on medicine and mylifes oversight of brotherly love sheds no bad light on Christianity those individual actions and choices are a reflexion of the imperfect PERSON who decided upon them,,, since there are no guidelines as to when Christian Love becomes abuse then then why are claiming that "mylifetoday' is abusing his Christians duties...all he is required to do is claim that he love all muslims even through he wish they all just disappeared so there can be peace lol,, well, I think Christ actually said it a different way Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" "Jesus said to him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your mind and with all your soul… and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Jesus Christ, Matthew 22:36-40) I dont recall Jesus implying that the answer to anything was that sinners 'disappear' ,,,,we are more than any one belief, thought or action,, wanting any of those small parts to change is a total different extreme than wishing harm to a person, no less wishing they will 'disappear' well you might not recall Jesus implying that "sinners" disappear but do you recall Jesus saiding to turn the other cheek...but let's face it...he won't be doing that in the battle at Armageddon as he show his Christian Love by slicing and dicing those pesty sinners Jesus will killed sinners in this battle under the concept of Christian love in which he is require to love all as he kills them.. which is no different than 'mylifetoday' comment on wishing that all the muslims disappear..... so is Jesus not turning the other cheek an example of him abusing his Christian teachings hmm,, is my driving a car an example of me abusing my teachings of my children to not even turn the KEY of a car.....lol If only I had ENOUGH interest, ,back and forths can go all night,,,
I suppose if I ever have an existence where I live a perfect life and die for the sins of others, where I am the word or the way, I might earn the PRIVILEGE/RESPONSIBILITY of such severe judgment but until that day, I am like a child and what applies to children does not always apply to adults,,,, oh my god ...oops....er... I meant oh no not your off the mark analogies again ...come on MsHarmony...you allowing your underage children to go James Dean and hot rodding in your car is not the same as Jesus going Clint Eastwood make my day on sinners so can we stick to the religious aspect of the current topic of debate instead of you resorting to devious ways of going off the debate so again is Jesus killing those that he claim that he love in the battle at Armegeddon an example of Christian Required Love its an example of Gods judgment,,,,I will leave the rest to interpretation,,, so Jesus killing under the banner of Christian Love according to you is an example of God's judgement....well I guess that answers the question whether Jesus had "Free Will" or not ..appears all he ever was "In The Beginning" was God's Love puppet thats your interpretation,, peace be with ya,,, |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sat 05/28/11 09:32 AM
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good luck agreeing on which beliefs qualify as 'religion' It doesn't matter. Any organized religion that has a church. Get rid of all of them. Let people have their own beliefs. Stop trying to make them conform to a church doctrine. Beliefs are not religions. so would that involve REFUSING the right of people to organize BASED upon their beliefs? what in having an organization implies that people arent being able to have their own beliefs? I'm making a point. I'm just saying that if mylifetoday wants to get rid of the Muslim religion, then its only fair that we get rid of Christianity too. People already have "their own beliefs." But when you have an organized religion, or denomination, you are expected to CONFORM TO THE NORM. Morningsong expects Cowboy to conform to her beliefs about Christianity or she tells him if he can't then he should stop calling himself a Christian. Why not let him believe what he wants? Why not let him call it anything that he wants? That's what I mean about organized religion. They expect conformity of beliefs. organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything some individuals EXPECT you to agree with what they believe, whatever that is,,,,and yet we still all have the CHOICE to do it or not based upon our personal experiences,, Here's the problem with that. You can't truly have an honest choice, IF the choice you make to believe in something or not to believe in something dictates whether or not you are cast out from a particular group of people. There's a term for that, and I believe it'd be called stacking the deck. I guess that depends upon the definition of choice,, I was taught if there are OPTIONS(however undesirable) There is a choice. And there are always options to EVERY thing(Besides being born). Yes we do have options, but my point is, the pressure to conform to certain options is higher here than it ought to be. The freedom to choose is somewhat hampered when the conditions become little different from "do as you are told because I say so". |
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good luck agreeing on which beliefs qualify as 'religion' It doesn't matter. Any organized religion that has a church. Get rid of all of them. Let people have their own beliefs. Stop trying to make them conform to a church doctrine. Beliefs are not religions. so would that involve REFUSING the right of people to organize BASED upon their beliefs? what in having an organization implies that people arent being able to have their own beliefs? I'm making a point. I'm just saying that if mylifetoday wants to get rid of the Muslim religion, then its only fair that we get rid of Christianity too. People already have "their own beliefs." But when you have an organized religion, or denomination, you are expected to CONFORM TO THE NORM. Morningsong expects Cowboy to conform to her beliefs about Christianity or she tells him if he can't then he should stop calling himself a Christian. Why not let him believe what he wants? Why not let him call it anything that he wants? That's what I mean about organized religion. They expect conformity of beliefs. organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything some individuals EXPECT you to agree with what they believe, whatever that is,,,,and yet we still all have the CHOICE to do it or not based upon our personal experiences,, Here's the problem with that. You can't truly have an honest choice, IF the choice you make to believe in something or not to believe in something dictates whether or not you are cast out from a particular group of people. There's a term for that, and I believe it'd be called stacking the deck. I guess that depends upon the definition of choice,, I was taught if there are OPTIONS(however undesirable) There is a choice. And there are always options to EVERY thing(Besides being born). Yes we do have options, but my point is, the pressure to conform to certain options is higher here than it ought to be. also a matter of perspective I think there is societal pressure towards alot of things that I dont agree with, but thats a part of life that cant be erased when you have LARGE numbers of people trying to live together in a society |
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I'm going to address the subject of the O.P. and not get into all the religious bickering, so anyone who responds with any religious bickering will be ignored. I once read something called "The report from Iron Mountain" Which was said to be a study of the effects of world peace if it were ever achieved. Very interesting report, regardless if you believe the story about how it was compiled. The conclusions were not very promising. Governments would fall, countries would become non-existent. The economy as we know it would be completely destroyed. This world and this galaxy is all about war and conquest. There was even a war in heaven if you believe that. This war in heaven could have been a galactic conflict between non-human alien life forms. There are many different factions, races, etc. operating in this world and they are vying for control and power. Its all about energy. Everything is about energy in the physical world because there are limits to energy here. It is a finite world. The big fish eats the little fish. Its all about money, power, energy. It is never going to change. This is not paradise, this is the physical world. Having said that, it is as it should be. Universal law is at work here in this world. It is a world of duality. War and peace, good and evil, black and white, male and female, etc. It is fantasy island. Have you ever seen the movie "Demolition Man?" One man's idea of "peace" was being lived in the city, and the people who wanted freedom were living underground. In the world of "peace" there were laws against eating meat, cursing, fighting, etc. There was a law against physically having sex. They did it electronically to avoid diseases. Children were created in test tubes. The point it, there must be diversity if you want freedom. There must be diversity if you want to have choices and free will. You must allow diversity or there is no freedom. You cannot have peace except within yourself. That is where you will find it. You cannot force it on other people without depriving them of diversity and freedom. life is a BALANCING act,,,well stated Jeannie
Ok so if you agree with this.......than the whole notion of majority rules law really shouldn't be should it? Because then you are dictating for everyone what is good or bad, instead of just making those choices for yourself and yourself only. not really, majority rules is the agreed upon foundation of the DEMOCRACY our 'founders' created BALANCE is what we should seek for ourself,,,,they dont exclude one another Balance in our own lives yes, key word OWN. When you start stepping onto the right of others to seek their own balance, then I have a problem. As for the founders, the foundation of this country (or so we are told anyway), was based upon freedom and liberty for all. You cannot have freedom for all if certain things or people are excluded from that freedom. It's one of those things where either everyone has it, or no one does. |
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good luck agreeing on which beliefs qualify as 'religion' It doesn't matter. Any organized religion that has a church. Get rid of all of them. Let people have their own beliefs. Stop trying to make them conform to a church doctrine. Beliefs are not religions. so would that involve REFUSING the right of people to organize BASED upon their beliefs? what in having an organization implies that people arent being able to have their own beliefs? I'm making a point. I'm just saying that if mylifetoday wants to get rid of the Muslim religion, then its only fair that we get rid of Christianity too. People already have "their own beliefs." But when you have an organized religion, or denomination, you are expected to CONFORM TO THE NORM. Morningsong expects Cowboy to conform to her beliefs about Christianity or she tells him if he can't then he should stop calling himself a Christian. Why not let him believe what he wants? Why not let him call it anything that he wants? That's what I mean about organized religion. They expect conformity of beliefs. organized religion hasnt the conscious to 'expect' anything some individuals EXPECT you to agree with what they believe, whatever that is,,,,and yet we still all have the CHOICE to do it or not based upon our personal experiences,, Here's the problem with that. You can't truly have an honest choice, IF the choice you make to believe in something or not to believe in something dictates whether or not you are cast out from a particular group of people. There's a term for that, and I believe it'd be called stacking the deck. I guess that depends upon the definition of choice,, I was taught if there are OPTIONS(however undesirable) There is a choice. And there are always options to EVERY thing(Besides being born). Yes we do have options, but my point is, the pressure to conform to certain options is higher here than it ought to be. also a matter of perspective I think there is societal pressure towards alot of things that I dont agree with, but thats a part of life that cant be erased when you have LARGE numbers of people trying to live together in a society Either way, we would do far better to respect everyone's choices to make of their lives what they will, than to try and force people into a box they are not comfortable with. This is what religion tends to do. |
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Don't the priests or bishops whip themselves sometimes to repent?? I so often see this in medieval movies. Do they still do this today funches? If so there is your answer to that. They do enjoy such treatment, but they do it to repent or be cleaned off sins they have done. Kind of a punishment onto themselves believing god is punishing them for their wrong doings. priests whipping is one example how Christians use their religion as a way to abuse themselves and claim it to be Love...that's what I meant about how Christian Love provides no distintion or guidelines as to when the Love is abuse and because it provide no guidelines is how Christians use their religion to abuse and threaten others not of their faith and call it Love For Example: this debate started because "mylifetoday" posted that there would only be peace if there were no muslims ...is that comment a sign of Christians Love or is it a sign of Christian Hate flown under the flag of Love hmmm,,philosophy is interesting,,,, if the doctor commits malpractice,,,is that a sign of a doctors 'hypocrtic oath' or is a sign of doctors incompetence disguised as medicine? or is it the sign of someone who has been deemed a doctor and either willfully or accidentally fallen short of their obligations? MsHarmony...as usual your analogies generally leave key points out of the equation.... for example....the doctor saying there would be no malpractice if there were no patients just as "mylifetoday" said that they can be no peace unless there were no muslims great,, use that example then if the doctor says there will be no malpractice without patients, is that a comment on medicine or 'doctors' , or is it a comment on how even medicine can be misused by some doctors? or is it just an example of one DOCTOR who willfully or accidentally was mistaken in his CHOICE? once again MsHarmony your analogies have left another key part out of the equation...for example...if the doctor mention that without patients there would be no malpractice...then why are you leaving the patients out of your equations ,,,,,things that make you go hmmmmm? (but which in no way condemn medicine or religion at large)
what should be going hummmmmm is the fact that you've already commented on "mylifetoday" posts are being Muslim Hatred ....and I was just trying to make the point that his muslim hatred is flown under the flag of being Christian Love I don't know how many times I have to say this... I don't hate Muslims. I see the truth of their religion - note: NOT beliefs as everyone's personal belief is different. The truth I see is that Muhammad told his followers to convert at the tip of a sword and he lead an army that did just that. Convert or we kill you... That isn't hate. That is pointing out what their religion says. Just as you think you are pointing out the failures in Christianity... Do you hate Christians???? If you can honestly say no, then you understand how I feel about Muslims... the issue is, muslims are HUMANS first, and we can no more determine what the SPECIFIC beliefs of over a billion different individuals will be than we can any group of a billion humans,, to advocate for the disappearance of such a large number of individuals doesnt SEEM exactly like brotherly love I don't advocate the disappearance of them. I advocate the end of their religion. That can happen without them going anywhere. Similar to Funches trying to dissuade all from Christianity. If I am guilty of the things Funches says - He is guilty of the same things towards Christians. "mylifetoday" the first rule of society is to consider that all it's citizens are insane and in need of protection from each other...in other words Christianity at this point in time is cheaper than paying for a pyschiatrist ... the point I was trying to make is that you use your religion to spread your hatred for Muslim under the disguise of Christian Love |
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I was trying to say that Christianity in and of itself is defined by a few specific points of belief. It is not an organized religion. It is a specific set of belief everyone that calls themselves Christian holds true.
It cannot be an organized religion or there would only be on Chritian religion not the dozen that exist today. I would appreciate it if someone would ask me what I mean rather than Falsely assuming what I believe to be true. I wasn't going to post on this thread again. Hadn't even looked at it in quite some time. The only reason I said anything was because my statements on Islam were being debated with an incorrect understanding of what I meant by all parties. It was being passed around as the truth of my beliefs and was totally false. |
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I'm going to address the subject of the O.P. and not get into all the religious bickering, so anyone who responds with any religious bickering will be ignored. I once read something called "The report from Iron Mountain" Which was said to be a study of the effects of world peace if it were ever achieved. Very interesting report, regardless if you believe the story about how it was compiled. The conclusions were not very promising. Governments would fall, countries would become non-existent. The economy as we know it would be completely destroyed. This world and this galaxy is all about war and conquest. There was even a war in heaven if you believe that. This war in heaven could have been a galactic conflict between non-human alien life forms. There are many different factions, races, etc. operating in this world and they are vying for control and power. Its all about energy. Everything is about energy in the physical world because there are limits to energy here. It is a finite world. The big fish eats the little fish. Its all about money, power, energy. It is never going to change. This is not paradise, this is the physical world. Having said that, it is as it should be. Universal law is at work here in this world. It is a world of duality. War and peace, good and evil, black and white, male and female, etc. It is fantasy island. Have you ever seen the movie "Demolition Man?" One man's idea of "peace" was being lived in the city, and the people who wanted freedom were living underground. In the world of "peace" there were laws against eating meat, cursing, fighting, etc. There was a law against physically having sex. They did it electronically to avoid diseases. Children were created in test tubes. The point it, there must be diversity if you want freedom. There must be diversity if you want to have choices and free will. You must allow diversity or there is no freedom. You cannot have peace except within yourself. That is where you will find it. You cannot force it on other people without depriving them of diversity and freedom. life is a BALANCING act,,,well stated Jeannie
Ok so if you agree with this.......than the whole notion of majority rules law really shouldn't be should it? Because then you are dictating for everyone what is good or bad, instead of just making those choices for yourself and yourself only. not really, majority rules is the agreed upon foundation of the DEMOCRACY our 'founders' created BALANCE is what we should seek for ourself,,,,they dont exclude one another Balance in our own lives yes, key word OWN. When you start stepping onto the right of others to seek their own balance, then I have a problem. As for the founders, the foundation of this country (or so we are told anyway), was based upon freedom and liberty for all. You cannot have freedom for all if certain things or people are excluded from that freedom. It's one of those things where either everyone has it, or no one does. I agree, but it was also founded upon a 'line of authority' if you will, outlined in the constitution which requires a type of 'majority rule' operations,,, |
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