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| Topic: Religion Endangers Humanity And Its Future | |
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funny, can you please enlighten us with some ways Christianity in general has anything to do with gaining power for ones self? Gee, the mass slaughter of the Knights Templar authorized by the Catholic Church to gain their gold, money, lands and control. Where the actual Friday the 13th superstition comes from... Then you have the Church coming in to South America, baptizing the natives babies there and dashing out their brains immediately afterwards so they didn't grow up to be warriors. Not to mention destroying countless unknown historical and religious references because it was "pagan." |
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His religion is one of the things I held against Obama but he was still a better choice than McCain. How so? Because he won the Nobel peace prize for - what was it - something he MIGHT do? Religion or believing in one can be a bad mark against someone in power. Because they will make choices based on the philosophy of the religion making them possibly very dangerous. But that goes to the incapabability of an individual to make sound judgements - not to the core of religious philosophy. If I have a corrupt leader using religion to support a subverted agenda, and I mix that with someone devoid of sound discernmet of what is right or wrong - the issue is not one of religion - but of human nature. Considering that religion encourages divisiveness, superiority, hypocrisy, I will disagree that it is just a human nature problem. Religion encourages wishing bad on humans who do not believe as you do. Religion encourages less self responsibility. To name a few of the issues with religion. Then add a position of power to all of those issues that religion has and you are asking for trouble. Until the religious can realize they are the same as all other people in the world regardless to belief with no special priviledges with god and no special treatment when they die and no superior morality or superior judgements, they should not be trusted in places of power. I've been a member of a religion most of my entire life - and I haven't experienced any of what you "claim" reliigon is responsible for. What are you basing your statements on? What experience do you have with religion? What are some examples that you can site where a religion is to blame - and not an individual or group of individual's interpretation of a religious philosophy is not to blame. The only example I can think of is Satanism and some forms of Witchcraft or Paganism where what you claim is more a part of the religious philosophy than the individuals who are interpreting it. And I know of no religion with a special priviledge with God. As a matter of fact - it is religion which keeps one from God more often than not. Obviously you are blinded by your own beliefs to see what I am talking about because the examples you gave are not even slightly on target. I was raised both Catholic and Baptist and have been around religious folks all my life. So I am speaking from personal observation. I have seen religion take a logical person and turn them into an illogical "righteous" mess. I have seen the damage religion has on children. I have seen personally people who feel "justified" and "righteous" that those who do not believe as them are deserving of bad things to happen to them. Every religion teaches divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy. I have studied different religions and it is the same with most of them. The major religions definitely do this. All of Christianity does it. All of the concepts in most religion contort logical thought and create a twisted sense of reality. So a person in power with this twist is not necessarily the best to make important decisions. I'm not blinded by my own beliefs - I just don't see the same thing you do through the clouded specticles you see life with. First off - we are not in disagreement about what goes on in the world - i see the same things you do as far as people doing injustices to themselves, and teaching children to do the same - but I don't see where the blame is on "religion" - and not the people intelligent enough to understand what it is they think they believe. Your caim that every religion teaches divisiveness, superiority and hypocracy is blatenly false. Period. not only is this not true - i say that you cannot name one religion outside of Satanism that can support this claim of yours. Certainly not christianity. And if that's your claim - I attest that you don't know what christianity is. Now - I'm not going to sit here and admit that there are not religions in this world who's philosophy is not inherantly damaging and dangerous. I would never make that claim. In fact - for the most part, I would tend to agree with the OP about his initial intent behind the firdt post. But for radically different reasons. I've seen all the damage that has been done since the religion of "Evolution" has been introduced into the main stream, and our children forced to accept it as truth. There has been no other religion throughout time that hs done more damage to the human race than that of evolution. From it we have the autrocities of Hitler and Stalin - euthanasia - abortion, all born out of the philosophies of Evolution. But my sense is - that this is not the aspects of religion that you'd agree with me on as far as it's destructive influence. Why? Because you are blinded by your own beliefs. So who's the blind one here? Who see's only what they want to see? Obviously you. You have missed on all of your examples still about the teachings of christianity. I cannot help you because of your blinders. You will continue to believe what you do, be it right or wrong. Most religions teach divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy, there is not way around it and individuality doesn't change it. If you follow the religion you will incorporate divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy in your beliefs, projections and judgements. So - are you going to answer my question and name a religion that supports your claim? Or are you merely prefering not to contaminate your opinion with facts. I'll answer that question for Dragoness since she isn't here right now. I'm not concerned with contamination... Any religion that teaches children that their religion is the only true one and all others are false. Any religion that teaches children their version of what a "sinner" is. Any religion that condemns another's lifestyle choices. Any religion that teaches children those who do certain things will surly go to hell. Any religion that uses fear and of eternal damnation to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that uses guilt as a means to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that teaches it is their responsibility to preach the word and save others. That would be a few things..there are more and I could absolutely name specific religions that do that. I wouldn't want to offend anyone by mentioning their specific religion. And it could possibly be a mingle rule breaker.. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Mon 01/25/10 07:27 AM
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Dragoness posted
'Most religions teach divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy, there is not way around it and individuality doesn't change it. If you follow the religion you will incorporate divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy in your beliefs, projections and judgements.' This describes any NATION with laws. Laws divide the lawabiding from the lawless, they teach abiding the law is 'superior' to being a 'criminal' and they are hypocritical 'based in financial status' Lady lid posted 'Any religion that teaches children that their religion is the only true one and all others are false. Any religion that teaches children their version of what a "sinner" is. Any religion that condemns another's lifestyle choices. Any religion that teaches children those who do certain things will surly go to hell. Any religion that uses fear and of eternal damnation to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that uses guilt as a means to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that teaches it is their responsibility to preach the word and save others' If we replace TRUE with RIGHT or LAWFUL, if we replace sinner with CRIMNAL , if we replace CONDEMS with INCARCERATES, if we replace GO TO HELL with GO TO JAIL, if we replace Fear of Eternal Damnation with FEAR OF LOSS OF FREEDOMS, and replace THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PREACH THE WORD with OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY.... you have described our nation, and in general, most nations(not the democracy part though) This division, superiority, and hypocrisy spoken of and attributed to religion IS INDEED entwined into MANS existence with or without religion,,, its merely called having laws...especially those made by man From my perspective, unlike mans laws for which punishment is distributed unequally and divisively, my religion(my faith in Christ) actually UNITES by pointing out that we are ALL one in having shortcomings, that not one is "GOOD" or superior, and that we will pass in the same manner in which we live. I think this is the DIVISIVE problem for man who would probably much rather rank wrongdoings so that some are more WRONG than others. |
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Each has their own perception, thank God for diversity..how boring life we be if we all thought the same way...
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Each has their own perception, thank God for diversity..how boring life we be if we all thought the same way... Amen |
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Mon 01/25/10 10:09 AM
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Dragoness posted 'Most religions teach divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy, there is not way around it and individuality doesn't change it. If you follow the religion you will incorporate divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy in your beliefs, projections and judgements.' This describes any NATION with laws. Laws divide the lawabiding from the lawless, they teach abiding the law is 'superior' to being a 'criminal' and they are hypocritical 'based in financial status' Lady lid posted 'Any religion that teaches children that their religion is the only true one and all others are false. Any religion that teaches children their version of what a "sinner" is. Any religion that condemns another's lifestyle choices. Any religion that teaches children those who do certain things will surly go to hell. Any religion that uses fear and of eternal damnation to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that uses guilt as a means to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that teaches it is their responsibility to preach the word and save others' If we replace TRUE with RIGHT or LAWFUL, if we replace sinner with CRIMNAL , if we replace CONDEMS with INCARCERATES, if we replace GO TO HELL with GO TO JAIL, if we replace Fear of Eternal Damnation with FEAR OF LOSS OF FREEDOMS, and replace THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PREACH THE WORD with OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY.... you have described our nation, and in general, most nations(not the democracy part though) This division, superiority, and hypocrisy spoken of and attributed to religion IS INDEED entwined into MANS existence with or without religion,,, its merely called having laws...especially those made by man msharmony, you keep jumping the thinking gun!!! You tend to twist logic and rational thought, in order to fit your personal dogma and the unjustifiable positions claimed in a 2000 year old book. Democratic principles and 'religious dogma' cannot be thrown together in the shaky analogy you are suggesting here. Democracy is not founded on the fallacy of infallible divine truths. Democracy is based on agreement and consensus of a majority. And it provides for any number of 'majorities', to arrive at the consensus that are theirs. Different people, different countries, different consensus, different laws. With the additional dimension of dissent!!! Full privilege to criticize and argue for a new consensus, by the majority, to alter a law considered 'UNJUST' by the majority !!! How does one invent a path between that, and religious dogma, which is the absolute contrary, no consensus, no freedom, and certainly no change (whether or not it is shown to be unjust) totally escapes me. From my perspective, unlike mans laws for which punishment is distributed unequally and divisively, my religion(my faith in Christ) actually UNITES by pointing out that we are ALL one in having shortcomings, that not one is "GOOD" or superior, and that we will pass in the same manner in which we live. I think this is the DIVISIVE problem for man who would probably much rather rank wrongdoings so that some are more WRONG than others. Try it out with people from other christian denomination, or better yet, with people from the muslim faith. You will probably realize how imposing ONE RELIGIOUS AND DOGMATIC LAW IS CALLED A DECLARATION OF WAR!!! |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Mon 01/25/10 10:20 AM
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Democracy is not founded on the fallacy of infallible divine truths....
Than whose TRUTH is it founded in? I will continue to take my book above the current MAJORITY at any point in time of history. I prefer a consistent and time withstanding law to a whatever is popular one. Not to belittle mans laws at all, which I also follow because they happen to also be included in that ARCHAIC law you speak of as well. |
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funny, can you please enlighten us with some ways Christianity in general has anything to do with gaining power for ones self? Gee, the mass slaughter of the Knights Templar authorized by the Catholic Church to gain their gold, money, lands and control. Where the actual Friday the 13th superstition comes from... Then you have the Church coming in to South America, baptizing the natives babies there and dashing out their brains immediately afterwards so they didn't grow up to be warriors. Not to mention destroying countless unknown historical and religious references because it was "pagan." these are people's actions. This is not what christianity in general teaches us. Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek. We are to be humble and loving to anyone and everyone. |
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This is not Christ like, and I am sorry these are the types of experiences you have had. In trying to follow the example of Christ, I do not feel superior to anyone, I feel we all sin and that is mostly what I get the most flack about. I never say that I am better than anyone because I dont believe I am. I do aknowledge wrong from right though, regardless of if I am the transgressor or someone else,, and I get flack for that as well. Actually it is Christ like because it is the practice of Christians. Christianity cannot teach equality because it teaches divisiveness ie "my religion is the one true and right religion", it teaches superiority ie "some humans will go to hell because of what they believe but it won't be me the great Christian", it teaches hypocrisy ie "I am not held responsible for my sins because I go to church on Sunday and get forgiven" Until religions embrace all other religions and non religious as equal and deserving of heaven including all sexual orientations they will be discriminatory and not healthy for humans to follow. This is flawed logic in my opinion. First,Christ like means like Christ, of whom there was only one,, not like any and every one who claims to be christian. I dont believe anyones RELIGION(religious title or affiliation) makes them any better or worse than anyone else. It is how we live our lives that will be judged by God , not what title we give ourself. I also dont believe I know who will go to heaven or who will not, I was taught that only God knows or will decide. I do know the paths that Christ set out for us to follow and I choose that path hoping to reach the destination I seek. I also have never not felt responsible for sin, forgiveness doesnt absolve one of responsibility and I was never taught this either. I embrace religious beliefs, I dont embrace all actions and words anymore than a non religious person does. I dont think it would be healthy to have an everything is fine to do attitude(regardless of religious or non religious affiliation). I do think there are paths to heaven and paths which dont lead to heaven, just as some paths will get me from Las Vegas to Los Angeles and others wont. If I am trying to get to Los Angeles, I just follow those paths,, it doesnt mean I feel better than those trying to get to Arizona, or those trying to get to Los Angeles by way of Indianapolis. I just feel we all choose different paths and they dont all end up at the same destination. so...If a person lives a virtuous life, helps others when he can, ect, but never confesses any belief in a godthing, do you think he gets a pass unto Heaven or not? Noone gets a 'pass'.. it will be up to God. Without God there is no heaven though. Personally, I use the example of my biological dad when trying to understand God. My father had rules in his home, if you didnt abide by them you werent permitted in his home,,it was very simple with him. I will not profess to know with certaintly who will or will not see the Father except that my bible says those who REJECT him(which is different than not knowing him) will certainly not see him. ah...so a good person who rejects God or the idea of a godthing is still screwed. What an ego this God person must have. You know, if an actual person displayed those kinds of attitudes towards their underlings, that person would almost universly be decreed as a tyrant. If an otherwise 'good' person rejects God, that person also rejects heaven(Gods house), makes the choice for themself that they dont want either, and therefore merely gets what they request and are not 'screwed'. If I chose not to let someone in my home based upon them detesting me and my home, that would not be a tyrant,, but a just person. What if the alternative to coming in your home was pain and death for the person who detests you? Would you still refuse entry? but it was not the only alternative,, the alternative is to aknowledge that the pain and suffering is not the better choice and to SEEK to come to my home. The main difference being we have to seek God while we are living, it is too late to knock on the door after we have died. Those who dont bother to seek my home will NEVER enter it, how could they? At some point the one trying to come home has to EMBRACE that is the home they want. That is how it works in life and I would expect it to be so after life. That was not the scenerio I laid out. What I wrote had no "alternatives", no qualifications. Let's try an example. Suppose you live on a hill. A very sturdy hill made of rock. There's a terrible storm and all the land below you is flooding. You hear a knock on your door. It's that a-hole neighbor from down the street whom you know hates your guts. Your choice: Do let him in and give him shelter or do you let him perish in the storm? I apologize for not beign clear. If he KNOCKS on my door, he is ASKING My help and I shall give it to him. This knock in our mortal life equates to acknowledging God and seeking his help. If one never seeks him or refuses to aknowledge him,, just as if that person never knocks on my door or aknowledges me and my home are there,,than THAT person makes the choice to not receive help or enter heaven. Ok, that's good. Now let's change it up a little. Suppose you see out your window, this neighbor climbing up the hill. He's struggling against the wind and the rain. Suddenly, he collapses on the ground. He's fallen into a little stream that formed from all the rain coming down the hill. You realize he will drown if you don't help him. Do you help him? Even if he's an a-hole who hates your guts? Here is the difference in my eyes,,,if all that was necessary for us to receive help would be to NEED help, what would be his purpose? What would be the purpose of believing in him or calling on him, if he was going to intervene REGARDLESS. You seem to think it a heartless thing, but I see it as his promise to allow us to go through our own trials and tribulations , to get stronger, and to come to him. People view the alternative to heaven as a horrid thing, and perhaps it is. But if it is our choice and we also have the fair and balanced choice of eternal paradise,,, I see this as the sign of a wondrous God. Many believe we have done nothing so bad as to deserve eternal damnation but the flip side is that we have done nothing so good on this earth as to actually DESERVE eternal paradise. He is blessed enough to welcome us if we only call on him(not such a difficult thing at all really). nice dance. When you get done dancing, perhaps the question you could answer. mmmm...yes? oh nevermind. I know why you didn't answer. If you answer "yes", then you have the conundrum of showing better morals and compasion than your god. If you answer "no", then you show a compasionless indifference to another's suffering and death, just like your god. Which doesn't put your god in the best light, does it. So you can't answer. |
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This is not Christ like, and I am sorry these are the types of experiences you have had. In trying to follow the example of Christ, I do not feel superior to anyone, I feel we all sin and that is mostly what I get the most flack about. I never say that I am better than anyone because I dont believe I am. I do aknowledge wrong from right though, regardless of if I am the transgressor or someone else,, and I get flack for that as well. Actually it is Christ like because it is the practice of Christians. Christianity cannot teach equality because it teaches divisiveness ie "my religion is the one true and right religion", it teaches superiority ie "some humans will go to hell because of what they believe but it won't be me the great Christian", it teaches hypocrisy ie "I am not held responsible for my sins because I go to church on Sunday and get forgiven" Until religions embrace all other religions and non religious as equal and deserving of heaven including all sexual orientations they will be discriminatory and not healthy for humans to follow. This is flawed logic in my opinion. First,Christ like means like Christ, of whom there was only one,, not like any and every one who claims to be christian. I dont believe anyones RELIGION(religious title or affiliation) makes them any better or worse than anyone else. It is how we live our lives that will be judged by God , not what title we give ourself. I also dont believe I know who will go to heaven or who will not, I was taught that only God knows or will decide. I do know the paths that Christ set out for us to follow and I choose that path hoping to reach the destination I seek. I also have never not felt responsible for sin, forgiveness doesnt absolve one of responsibility and I was never taught this either. I embrace religious beliefs, I dont embrace all actions and words anymore than a non religious person does. I dont think it would be healthy to have an everything is fine to do attitude(regardless of religious or non religious affiliation). I do think there are paths to heaven and paths which dont lead to heaven, just as some paths will get me from Las Vegas to Los Angeles and others wont. If I am trying to get to Los Angeles, I just follow those paths,, it doesnt mean I feel better than those trying to get to Arizona, or those trying to get to Los Angeles by way of Indianapolis. I just feel we all choose different paths and they dont all end up at the same destination. so...If a person lives a virtuous life, helps others when he can, ect, but never confesses any belief in a godthing, do you think he gets a pass unto Heaven or not? Noone gets a 'pass'.. it will be up to God. Without God there is no heaven though. Personally, I use the example of my biological dad when trying to understand God. My father had rules in his home, if you didnt abide by them you werent permitted in his home,,it was very simple with him. I will not profess to know with certaintly who will or will not see the Father except that my bible says those who REJECT him(which is different than not knowing him) will certainly not see him. ah...so a good person who rejects God or the idea of a godthing is still screwed. What an ego this God person must have. You know, if an actual person displayed those kinds of attitudes towards their underlings, that person would almost universly be decreed as a tyrant. If an otherwise 'good' person rejects God, that person also rejects heaven(Gods house), makes the choice for themself that they dont want either, and therefore merely gets what they request and are not 'screwed'. If I chose not to let someone in my home based upon them detesting me and my home, that would not be a tyrant,, but a just person. What if the alternative to coming in your home was pain and death for the person who detests you? Would you still refuse entry? but it was not the only alternative,, the alternative is to aknowledge that the pain and suffering is not the better choice and to SEEK to come to my home. The main difference being we have to seek God while we are living, it is too late to knock on the door after we have died. Those who dont bother to seek my home will NEVER enter it, how could they? At some point the one trying to come home has to EMBRACE that is the home they want. That is how it works in life and I would expect it to be so after life. That was not the scenerio I laid out. What I wrote had no "alternatives", no qualifications. Let's try an example. Suppose you live on a hill. A very sturdy hill made of rock. There's a terrible storm and all the land below you is flooding. You hear a knock on your door. It's that a-hole neighbor from down the street whom you know hates your guts. Your choice: Do let him in and give him shelter or do you let him perish in the storm? I apologize for not beign clear. If he KNOCKS on my door, he is ASKING My help and I shall give it to him. This knock in our mortal life equates to acknowledging God and seeking his help. If one never seeks him or refuses to aknowledge him,, just as if that person never knocks on my door or aknowledges me and my home are there,,than THAT person makes the choice to not receive help or enter heaven. Ok, that's good. Now let's change it up a little. Suppose you see out your window, this neighbor climbing up the hill. He's struggling against the wind and the rain. Suddenly, he collapses on the ground. He's fallen into a little stream that formed from all the rain coming down the hill. You realize he will drown if you don't help him. Do you help him? Even if he's an a-hole who hates your guts? In trying logical reasoning with some people you might as well just ask: If an eletric train is going west which way is the smoke from the smokestack heading?...or better yet if a plane crashes on the US/Candian border which country do you bury the survivers in? Dude...some people are just a waste of time. This is certainly true. However, Msharmony has conducted herself with grace and charm, even under the whithering fire of such as us. She deserves, at least, respect. And because she has neither run for cover, nor lashed out in anger, she shows the potential of thinking logically and breaking the bonds of religion. i.e. It does take a monumental mental effort to get reality to squeeeze w/i the boundaries of religious dogma. If she is capable of jumping through such mental hoops, she is also capable of seeing the folly of doing it. Unlike some others, she does more than just quote scriptures, tell everyone how wrong they are unless they agree w/ her, love it or leave it, ect ect. Msharmony actually talks, converses, trades information and ideas. You and I may think she's a fool for denying her own desires, and reality at large, but you cannot deny she has a brain and is capable of much compassion. |
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and i thought we had some crazy debates at our mosque I'm willing to bet there are crazy debates in every mosque, church, temple...ect ect..  crazy is a relative state of mind.. |
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Love, forgiveness, spirit, allowing, tolerance, kindness, compassion, empathy...ALL these gifts can be experienced and expressed without religion. We do not have to be part of one of the big religions to have such things in our lives... Once I was able to dump my childhood religion and lose the salvation theory all together...then I was able to truly experience what spirituality really is. I know there is something bigger than me behind the wheel. It is when I am hiking the mountains, or sitting along the river that I feel a presence of pure love, not in a church building. I actually believe the only way for peace in this world is for humans to outgrow religion. Which if they would examine without reverence associated with it, they would discover it is useless. never happen. It's an established fact, the more intelligent, educated an individual is, the less likely they will believe in a superstition (superstition=religion) Stupid people breed faster than smart people. There are many reasons for this. If any person can't think of any, it's because that person is stupid. Religions will have an unending supply of stupid people willing to believe whatever they tell them. So much for that. Of course it is possible for a true believer to not be stupid. And no true believer will ever think of themselves as stupid. Once again, we're back to humanity is just pretty well screwed. |
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I dont believe religion is the basis for why we cant live peacefully, if I am wrong point me to the nearest utopian atheist community.... People , by nature, will divide and survive and oppress, with or without religion. The Dutch are mostly atheist and pretty utopian. When was the last time you heard of the Dutch bombing anyone or invading a country? |
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I dont believe religion is the basis for why we cant live peacefully, if I am wrong point me to the nearest utopian atheist community.... People , by nature, will divide and survive and oppress, with or without religion. Show me the atheists of war and division? The Military Industrial Complex. I'm pretty sure they don't give a frog's fart about any particular belief system. Just as long as they keep making money off of war. |
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Love, forgiveness, spirit, allowing, tolerance, kindness, compassion, empathy...ALL these gifts can be experienced and expressed without religion. We do not have to be part of one of the big religions to have such things in our lives... Once I was able to dump my childhood religion and lose the salvation theory all together...then I was able to truly experience what spirituality really is. I know there is something bigger than me behind the wheel. It is when I am hiking the mountains, or sitting along the river that I feel a presence of pure love, not in a church building. I actually believe the only way for peace in this world is for humans to outgrow religion. Which if they would examine without reverence associated with it, they would discover it is useless. never happen. It's an established fact, the more intelligent, educated an individual is, the less likely they will believe in a superstition (superstition=religion) Stupid people breed faster than smart people. There are many reasons for this. If any person can't think of any, it's because that person is stupid. Religions will have an unending supply of stupid people willing to believe whatever they tell them. So much for that. Of course it is possible for a true believer to not be stupid. And no true believer will ever think of themselves as stupid. Once again, we're back to humanity is just pretty well screwed. stupid people are more likely to be stupid the more educated are more likely to come from the well endowed (financially),, the well endowed are more likely to believe their education is the only valid one or superior to others (not unlike a religion, I guess) but yeah, endless correlations could be made about human beings, and alot of them could imply that we are screwed |
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I dont believe religion is the basis for why we cant live peacefully, if I am wrong point me to the nearest utopian atheist community.... People , by nature, will divide and survive and oppress, with or without religion. Show me the atheists of war and division? They are mixed in with everyone else, just like those of peace are, because people are flawed, with or without religion. If you look through history there are no atheists of war. So your logic doesn't stand the test of truth. My logic is more like common sense actually, Far too many people since the beginning of time have been atheists for me to believe NONE of them encouraged or supported war. Most wars are fought over property and power, not things that only the religious are guilty of wanting. You both are being too narrow. Most wars were either caused by or excused by some religious belief system. However, to say there were never any atheist warmongers in the whole of human history is most likely wrong. |
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I am assuming no such thing. An atheist is a person who believes in SOMETHING. But God is no one of them. The term atheist means a person who has no belief in God. Any other beliefs you think he may have that you think goes along with that is your own assumption and interpretation of the word. JB is correct. We can say that atheists have beliefs simply because they are human, not because they are atheists. There is only one belief universal to 'strong atheists' (the positive belief in the nonexistence of deities) , and there are no beliefs universal to 'weak atheists'. But you are assuming that an Atheist is without belief - however this is not true. The religion of most - if not all atheists is Secular Humanism, and if not that - it's Uniformalism. Just because a "God" isn't involved, or believed in - does not mean there isn't a "religion" present. This sounds like Fundamentalist Christian Kool Aid to me. If you are talking about a Secular Humanist, the intelligent thing to do is to say "Secular Humanist." To say "atheist" when you mean "Secular Humanist" is both dishonest and contrary to an intelligent development of thought, IMO. Its obvious to me, from listening to tons of Christian talk radio and reading many books on apologetics (intended for lay people, not theologians) that there is a massive trend of Fundamentalists Christians continuously repeating bizarre ideas, promoting false logic, and taking arguments out of their original context to obtain a kind of 'mass hypnosis' of the ridiculous . Saying that "atheism is a religion" is one of those phrases/memes/beliefs. It is complete an total nonsense, and obviously so if you just take a look at words composing the sentence. There are similar statements that an honest and intelligent person could make.... such as, "it looks like all humans, including atheists, have a belief system of some sort" or "it looks like all humans, including atheists, take a lot of their belief system on faith" or "many atheists participate in some cultural phenemona that are atheist in nature and yet which have the same qualities of religions" and on and on. Saying that "atheism is a religion" is at least as foolish as saying that "theism is a religion". Forgive my being absent, and trying to catch up here..... As I said in the second part of the post to Jeannie - that it is a matter of semantics. The issue is not one of defining an "Atheist" - I think Jeannie nailed it. However - What is at issue is what one considers "religion" and how one equates an Atheist's not believing in a "deity" to not being religious, and therefore not "quilty" of the OP's original accusation. Which is the point I'm trying to make. I've never met an Atheist who was not religious. And I lived in Harvard Square for years - and have met more than my share of strong-atheists, weak-atheists, strong agnostics, weak agnostics, agnostic-atheists, and atheistic-agnostics. Never met anyone who didn't believe in some religion or another. y'know, I was gonna comment on this...but what's the point? Such complete absurdity boggles my mind. ... |
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This is not Christ like, and I am sorry these are the types of experiences you have had. In trying to follow the example of Christ, I do not feel superior to anyone, I feel we all sin and that is mostly what I get the most flack about. I never say that I am better than anyone because I dont believe I am. I do aknowledge wrong from right though, regardless of if I am the transgressor or someone else,, and I get flack for that as well. Actually it is Christ like because it is the practice of Christians. Christianity cannot teach equality because it teaches divisiveness ie "my religion is the one true and right religion", it teaches superiority ie "some humans will go to hell because of what they believe but it won't be me the great Christian", it teaches hypocrisy ie "I am not held responsible for my sins because I go to church on Sunday and get forgiven" Until religions embrace all other religions and non religious as equal and deserving of heaven including all sexual orientations they will be discriminatory and not healthy for humans to follow. This is flawed logic in my opinion. First,Christ like means like Christ, of whom there was only one,, not like any and every one who claims to be christian. I dont believe anyones RELIGION(religious title or affiliation) makes them any better or worse than anyone else. It is how we live our lives that will be judged by God , not what title we give ourself. I also dont believe I know who will go to heaven or who will not, I was taught that only God knows or will decide. I do know the paths that Christ set out for us to follow and I choose that path hoping to reach the destination I seek. I also have never not felt responsible for sin, forgiveness doesnt absolve one of responsibility and I was never taught this either. I embrace religious beliefs, I dont embrace all actions and words anymore than a non religious person does. I dont think it would be healthy to have an everything is fine to do attitude(regardless of religious or non religious affiliation). I do think there are paths to heaven and paths which dont lead to heaven, just as some paths will get me from Las Vegas to Los Angeles and others wont. If I am trying to get to Los Angeles, I just follow those paths,, it doesnt mean I feel better than those trying to get to Arizona, or those trying to get to Los Angeles by way of Indianapolis. I just feel we all choose different paths and they dont all end up at the same destination. You did not dispute any of what I stated on my post...lol There is no way around the divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy of the religion. I am glad that you feel as though you are doing yourself a favor by believing it. Humans are not better off because of religion. It hasn't done anything to help the human condition at all. I am not here just for dispute. I am also here to share. I, as a christian, read many blatantly false things in these posts about what I supposedly was taught to believe. I just try to clarify what is the truth from what is broad generalization. Humans are no worse off because of religion. Humans would commit all the atrocities they commit without religion, they would just find some other scapegoat to blame it on besides personal responsibility. Funny, since christians are being labeled in this thread as those who dont take personal responsibility but the same people are claiming that they do horrible things not because of who they are personally but because they are christian....cant have it both ways I take full responsibility for my actions, I use Gods laws as a guide just as others use mans laws. When I do things wrong, it is not the fault of laws existing,, it is just my personal bad choice. I'll admit I do see christians, on the whole, as being inherently evil. Though this is not a predjudice w/o cause, I assure you. I've known far too many professed "good" christains who had no problems commiting blantantly evil acts. And history is repleat with such examples. And that pretty much goes for just about anyone with a belief system that has a godthing or things at it's head. However, I do make the effort to take into account any individuals actions or words. I have to disagree with you on the "fault of the laws existing" thing. There have been many many bad laws in human history that good people should've and indeed have, railed against. If I had been born in the mid 1800's or before, I would've been proud to break laws to free slaves. And I would've been quite happy to kill slave owners to do it too. I would've defended indians, women, or whatever group of intelligent lifeforms were being oppressed or enslaved. The laws be damned. God's or man's. Which brings me to another point, christianity has been an excuse for slavery and the oppression of women. For almost it's entire history. Doesn't that bother you? Actually - what is historically accurate is that were it not for two devoted Christians - there would still be slavery in England and in America. Christianity is not responsible for the creation or furtherance of slavery - but for the irratication of it. whatever you say eljay...lol |
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Edited by
Eljay
on
Tue 01/26/10 06:52 PM
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I dont believe religion is the basis for why we cant live peacefully, if I am wrong point me to the nearest utopian atheist community.... People , by nature, will divide and survive and oppress, with or without religion. Show me the atheists of war and division? They are mixed in with everyone else, just like those of peace are, because people are flawed, with or without religion. If you look through history there are no atheists of war. So your logic doesn't stand the test of truth. My logic is more like common sense actually, Far too many people since the beginning of time have been atheists for me to believe NONE of them encouraged or supported war. Most wars are fought over property and power, not things that only the religious are guilty of wanting. I know you cannot find the atheists because most of them were not part of creating the reason for war. What do you think religion is??? Power. You cannot dispute it. Not legitimately anyway, funny, can you please enlighten us with some ways Christianity in general has anything to do with gaining power for ones self? I you use the brain your god gave you you will see it. Interesting way of saying "Gee, I don't know". |
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His religion is one of the things I held against Obama but he was still a better choice than McCain. How so? Because he won the Nobel peace prize for - what was it - something he MIGHT do? Religion or believing in one can be a bad mark against someone in power. Because they will make choices based on the philosophy of the religion making them possibly very dangerous. But that goes to the incapabability of an individual to make sound judgements - not to the core of religious philosophy. If I have a corrupt leader using religion to support a subverted agenda, and I mix that with someone devoid of sound discernmet of what is right or wrong - the issue is not one of religion - but of human nature. Considering that religion encourages divisiveness, superiority, hypocrisy, I will disagree that it is just a human nature problem. Religion encourages wishing bad on humans who do not believe as you do. Religion encourages less self responsibility. To name a few of the issues with religion. Then add a position of power to all of those issues that religion has and you are asking for trouble. Until the religious can realize they are the same as all other people in the world regardless to belief with no special priviledges with god and no special treatment when they die and no superior morality or superior judgements, they should not be trusted in places of power. I've been a member of a religion most of my entire life - and I haven't experienced any of what you "claim" reliigon is responsible for. What are you basing your statements on? What experience do you have with religion? What are some examples that you can site where a religion is to blame - and not an individual or group of individual's interpretation of a religious philosophy is not to blame. The only example I can think of is Satanism and some forms of Witchcraft or Paganism where what you claim is more a part of the religious philosophy than the individuals who are interpreting it. And I know of no religion with a special priviledge with God. As a matter of fact - it is religion which keeps one from God more often than not. Obviously you are blinded by your own beliefs to see what I am talking about because the examples you gave are not even slightly on target. I was raised both Catholic and Baptist and have been around religious folks all my life. So I am speaking from personal observation. I have seen religion take a logical person and turn them into an illogical "righteous" mess. I have seen the damage religion has on children. I have seen personally people who feel "justified" and "righteous" that those who do not believe as them are deserving of bad things to happen to them. Every religion teaches divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy. I have studied different religions and it is the same with most of them. The major religions definitely do this. All of Christianity does it. All of the concepts in most religion contort logical thought and create a twisted sense of reality. So a person in power with this twist is not necessarily the best to make important decisions. I'm not blinded by my own beliefs - I just don't see the same thing you do through the clouded specticles you see life with. First off - we are not in disagreement about what goes on in the world - i see the same things you do as far as people doing injustices to themselves, and teaching children to do the same - but I don't see where the blame is on "religion" - and not the people intelligent enough to understand what it is they think they believe. Your caim that every religion teaches divisiveness, superiority and hypocracy is blatenly false. Period. not only is this not true - i say that you cannot name one religion outside of Satanism that can support this claim of yours. Certainly not christianity. And if that's your claim - I attest that you don't know what christianity is. Now - I'm not going to sit here and admit that there are not religions in this world who's philosophy is not inherantly damaging and dangerous. I would never make that claim. In fact - for the most part, I would tend to agree with the OP about his initial intent behind the firdt post. But for radically different reasons. I've seen all the damage that has been done since the religion of "Evolution" has been introduced into the main stream, and our children forced to accept it as truth. There has been no other religion throughout time that hs done more damage to the human race than that of evolution. From it we have the autrocities of Hitler and Stalin - euthanasia - abortion, all born out of the philosophies of Evolution. But my sense is - that this is not the aspects of religion that you'd agree with me on as far as it's destructive influence. Why? Because you are blinded by your own beliefs. So who's the blind one here? Who see's only what they want to see? Obviously you. You have missed on all of your examples still about the teachings of christianity. I cannot help you because of your blinders. You will continue to believe what you do, be it right or wrong. Most religions teach divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy, there is not way around it and individuality doesn't change it. If you follow the religion you will incorporate divisiveness, superiority and hypocrisy in your beliefs, projections and judgements. So - are you going to answer my question and name a religion that supports your claim? Or are you merely prefering not to contaminate your opinion with facts. I'll answer that question for Dragoness since she isn't here right now. I'm not concerned with contamination... Any religion that teaches children that their religion is the only true one and all others are false. Any religion that teaches children their version of what a "sinner" is. Any religion that condemns another's lifestyle choices. Any religion that teaches children those who do certain things will surly go to hell. Any religion that uses fear and of eternal damnation to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that uses guilt as a means to keep their congregation in check. Any religion that teaches it is their responsibility to preach the word and save others. That would be a few things..there are more and I could absolutely name specific religions that do that. I wouldn't want to offend anyone by mentioning their specific religion. And it could possibly be a mingle rule breaker.. You bring up a lot of interesting points - however, they have nothing to do with the question that I asked Dragoness - AND you did not name a single religion - just attributes of something that you "perceive" exits. I contest that there isn't a religion that fullfills all of your premises, and since you didn't cite one - I doubt you can as well. So - I'll just wait and see if Dragoness can support her own statement - since you did a lousy job of it. Thanx for trying though. |
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