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| Topic: Pledge of Allegience | |
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I can count the number of Nativities I have seen in peoples yard on one hand. Very few private businesses display Crosses or any Christian symbols during the holidays and there are no laws against that. I know a couple resturants that display Norman Rockwell art showing people saying grace but would be nice to see people actually be proud to display their allegiance to their faith. Be nice to go in and see the Lord's Prayer on a wall or hear a God Bless once in a while. i'll ask robin to post the story about the odessa mall owner here; it'll give you some warm fuzzies (like it did me) ~~~~ there are literally hundreds of nativity scenes in the area in which is live (which is filled with mostly italian and portuguese catholics, along with a fairly large muslim population) i am proud of my faith but it isn't something that i need to show to the world, but rather is a personal thing which i keep close to my heart, where it is most important. I respect that papersmile. but what if it isnt about what people need but what people want. To say one should not Show or share their faith with others seems like encouraging them to HIDE it. I dont feel that is right. We arent all required to believe the same things. I just wish people were more open minded about those differences being part of the human experience instead of finding offense in them or deeming them un american. |
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I can count the number of Nativities I have seen in peoples yard on one hand. Very few private businesses display Crosses or any Christian symbols during the holidays and there are no laws against that. I know a couple resturants that display Norman Rockwell art showing people saying grace but would be nice to see people actually be proud to display their allegiance to their faith. Be nice to go in and see the Lord's Prayer on a wall or hear a God Bless once in a while. i'll ask robin to post the story about the odessa mall owner here; it'll give you some warm fuzzies (like it did me) ~~~~ there are literally hundreds of nativity scenes in the area in which is live (which is filled with mostly italian and portuguese catholics, along with a fairly large muslim population) i am proud of my faith but it isn't something that i need to show to the world, but rather is a personal thing which i keep close to my heart, where it is most important. I forgot all but that the mall here in Odessa at one time had a giant nativity scene on its property facing the main boulevard The city council had a meeting and asked him to remove it since it wasnt inclusive for Jews and Muslims and he agreed with one condition. That the mall would immediately be closed for business and none of the tenant stores would be allowed to open for as long as the nativity scene wasnt allowed. This was about three weeks before Christmas and the only mall in the city I think the mall stayed closed for only two days before they asked him to put it back up and the nativity scene has been there every year since |
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Edited by
papersmile
on
Mon 10/12/09 06:22 AM
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except i thought it was the ten commandments as opposed to the nativity scene and that they now sit right smack dab in the middle of the mall all year round.
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Very well put lula.
People stand up and claim that they want the homes to teach kids the personal values, beliefs and morals etc, and that the school should be more for teaching societal rules, and beliefs etc. A big problem erupts though in circumstances as the pledge of allegiance (as one example). The pledge is supposed to stand for American citizenry standing together as a Nation, Hence "one Nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all". As far as separation of Church and State, I think it is a big joke, because if you look back on history, the state and church have NEVER been separated. But getting back to the pledge of allegiance, let's dissect it here. "I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America" This clearly and without question is simply someone standing up and stating that they will follow the guidelines of the United States, represented by it's flag. "and to the Republic, for which it stands" Right here is a reiteration of the same thing; that we as American citizens will follow the guidelines of the United States of America (the Republic). "one Nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all This line right here defines, what the Republic is: one nation, under God; it does not claim which God, or which religion, just says under God. It goes on to say that the country is indivisible which means that we will not be divided against each other by a common enemy (Russia and Communism in the 50's); and in the end it says that the Republic stands for liberty and justice for all. So, reiterated, the pledge of allegiance to me, says: "I, Daniel L. Starrett, agree that I am an American citizen, and that as such, I will support the United States of America, and follow all of it's laws and regulations. The United states is only one Nation in which I could be a member, yet it's citizen's stand together in times of peril, and can not be divided amongst each other. In the end, we all fall under one God, whomever that God may or may not be, and believe with our whole hearts that every man, woman and child alive today has the right to liberty and justice, no matter what." So, looking at it from this point of view, no I do not have a single problem with it being said in the schools. It does not teach or say anything at all based off of any specific religious belief. It does not call our boys and girls to arms, or indoctrinate them into a certain belief system other than to support their country, which I am sorry, but as a citizen of ANY Country you should be willing to support that Country no matter what (Note I say Country and not politics). Should our children be forced to say this pledge? No; by it's very own words, "liberty for all", to force someone to say it would be to take their liberty, or freedom, away. HOWEVER, on the reverse side, to force others to NOT be able to say it also removes their liberty to do so. And as such, it all boils down to one phrase: Live and let live. My boys saying it does not harm your bys and girls who choose not to say it; and your children choosing to not say it is not going to harm my boys in their wanting to say it. My girls say it in school every day! Yay! I have no problem saying and I also don't have a problem for those who don't wish to say it. To each his own. suspend a straight-A child for such? really? i think not! i flat-out refused to have her punished. i refused to say it even in kindergarten. Good for you and for your daughter. I don't understand the rationality behind saying the pledge at all. Anyone know why it's even nessessary? there are those that get all riled up that schools are doing an obama dance and song...and yet, to me, the pledge is along the same lines. If it was mandatory and children were being FORCED to say it, then yes. It's not though, well at least in some schools. haha comparing the obama song to the American flag is laughable. Oh well guys, another brick wall post, we just won't agree or change each other's minds.  Great Country to have these freedoms of speech.  lol, they aren't the same...but they both have the feel of indoctrination, sort of. sort of like we're getting the kids used to something at an early age, whether that be supporting the flag or supporting obama. we do the same thing when we take our kids to church or to a meal...we get them used to how we want them to be when they grow up. when it's us as parents doing it, it's raising the kids. when it's the school doing it...there's more wondering about the reasons. and it doesn't have to be a brick wall that we disagree. this is a place for many views to have an open discussion and share different viewpoints. |
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I believe the person specifically stated that those who wish to pray would NOT make those who did nto wish to participate. So I ask you, what right do you, I or anyone else havbe to tell three students who believe in God and prayer, that they can not form a little group and pray together, so long as they are not trying to force their belief on someone else? And dont give me the bull pucky that it still forces others to watch it and achnowledge it, because by not joining in with the prayer, or by not allwoing the freedom for others TO pray, you are forcing your belief standard upon those who do nt agree with you.
Pledging allegiance would have been able to stay in the schools had it not been for the unfounded fear of communists....lol That is funny to me. Ironically, the original pledge stance looked like the Nazi salute, but that too was changed to make it "more American".   be seeing you Back to the nazi salute? probably back to no God,, judging from the current culture. I think it should be elective, I always have thought it should be. However, I dont see how saying it hurts anyone. Its like a prayer, I dont think schools should impose upon children that they have to pray but I dont think it right to disallow those who want to to do so when it doesnt hurt anyone. People can pray silently at any time of day or to themselves quietly at any time of day. There is no need to have to do it in a group that involves those who do not believe in that god. Indoctrination of religion should not be allowed. |
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remember MsHarmony, the cloth does not represent God HIMSELF, it represents the United States. And by agreeing to support the Nation, yuo are not failing to support God or Christ.
Remember also, that when the Apostles came to Christ and asked him wha to do with Romes Taxes, Christ specifically stated [color]Give unto Caesar, that which is Caesars. He goes on to tell the apostles that they also have to follow the laws of the country they live in (so long as they do not go against God Himself). By pledging your allegiance to the Flag of the United States, you are simply agreeing to stand up for your nation as one of its proud members and citizens. You are not declaring anything against God or Christ. I can accept someone not saying the "under God" part but I can't imagine anyone not wanting to pledge allegiance to the flag of our nation remembering that the flag represents the FIRST nation on earth that allowed its own citizens to rule. The first nation on earth to grant absolute freedom and self determination to its people and represents pure liberty and feedom. even the freedom to burn the flag itself its the principles to pledge to not just a brightly colored rag hangin on a pole I guess it is an individual thing. I am torn as well because as a christian I can see it being a false idol (a piece of cloth) but as a real time citizen, I also understand the symbolism behind it. I grew up choosing not to say it but I respect those who do and I totally see the motivation for it and respect that too. |
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If you think about it Dragoness, 90% of all religions, if not higher, all believe that they are the one true religion. SO please do not single Christianity out like that, suggesting that they are the only ones who feel this way.
  If communists cant believe in God,then how can BHO be a secret muslim and a communist at the same time? I think Atlantis and I established you can be communist and have one religion, it was done in communist nations. They only allowed one though. So if Christians believe they are the only one true religion do they believe like Communists on that one? Makes ya think........ |
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Edited by
franshade
on
Mon 10/12/09 06:52 AM
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The Pledge of Allegiance developed as part of a promotional campaign in the 1890s by the editors of The Youth's Companion, a popular weekly magazine published in Boston. Its purpose was to encourage patriotic education by placing the flag in the public schools and standardizing a flag salute. The original version, called "The Youth's Companion Flag Pledge," was published on 8 September 1892 and read "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and ["to" added here the following month] the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." The Pledge was a collaboration between James P. Upham, a junior partner of the magazine's publishing company, and his assistant, Francis M. Bellamy, a Baptist minister whose socialist ideas had lost him his pulpit. Disagreement persists over who should be considered its author, but two research teams—one by the United States Flag Association in 1939 and another by the Library of Congress in 1957—gave Bellamy the honor. The widespread popularity of the Pledge began with its central place in the nationwide school ceremonies associated with the first Columbus Day celebration, held in conjunction with the dedication on 19 October 1892 of the Chicago World's Columbian Exposition, marking the four-hundredth anniversary of Columbus's landing. National Flag Conferences in 1923 and 1924 agreed that the words "my flag" should be specified as "the flag of the United States" (and soon after "of America"). Congress eventually adopted the Pledge as part of an official flag code in 1942.
http://www.answers.com/topic/pledge-of-allegiance |
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No, neither when swearing into public office, nor when in court and being sworn in, are you REQUIRED to put your hand on a bible. You ARE required to raise your hand in the air, which is only a symbolism of you showing who you are as you make the pledge, or oath.
I really don't know this, but does the US president still has to put his hand on the Bible when he is sworn into presidency, and also , when there is a trial in a court, they have to put their hands on the Bible also? |
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No, neither when swearing into public office, nor when in court and being sworn in, are you REQUIRED to put your hand on a bible. You ARE required to raise your hand in the air, which is only a symbolism of you showing who you are as you make the pledge, or oath. I really don't know this, but does the US president still has to put his hand on the Bible when he is sworn into presidency, and also , when there is a trial in a court, they have to put their hands on the Bible also? Only including using the Bible/a Bible is a personal choice, Theodore Roosevelt did not use a Bible when he was sworn into office. Believe there wasn't one around and he improvised using a diff book. |
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I dont think freedom of speech is specific to what people want to hear. That is akin to censorship because someone within hearing range may not like it. ITs not as if kids dont have the will to not pay attention to what they dont want to hear, if they didnt, they would be doing alot better in school. We hear alot of things in life we may not feel like listening to and in most cases, we would then just tune it out not deny the person a right to say it. Very well put MsHarmony. Way too many people are quick to say, you dont have the right to "force me to listen" when in reality no one is forcing anyone to listen, or participate. And the flipside is true also. those who do not wish to believe or participate do not have the right to deny others their right to do so. If you don't like it, don't listen. That simple. |
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I'm with the folks who support the First Amendment, and believe that requiring the Pledge is an abridgment of those rights. I'm a strong patriot of this country, so I will always support those who wish to exercise these freedoms. I do say the pledge, with pride myself, but it is because I have LEARNED to believe in my country. I am vehemently opposed to people who think allegiance can be imposed. Forcing someone to say the pledge is no different to me than requiring a wife to support her husband no matter what he says, or for any one to support their employer no matter what they do. It's as UN-american as you can get. |
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Christians don't believe we are the ONLY religion, we are very accepting of other religions. What we don't like are others telling us God has to be excluded from so many things yet allow other religions seep it's way in place of God. If one religion, as this post is of God, is not allowed then by golly shut EVERY religion out. It just seems that so many people have no problems shoving God away but have tolerance for other religions that could be very harmful to this Country.    AMEN!! Well I hope by keeping religion out of the government and state supported schools they don't come in and try to mess it up. I have seen how badly governments have messed up other stuff they have been involved in so I don't want the government in my church telling me what God says or how I am to worship or where I have to tythe. With Christians more and more in the minority I figure we might all end up worshipping a robot. I could just see the Commandments if they were written by Government. I really wish more people, especially Christians, would put more money into building churches and charities, schools, and faith based businesses. It really pains me to see so few private property and business owners that don't display symbols of their faith. I can count the number of Nativities I have seen in peoples yard on one hand. Very few private businesses display Crosses or any Christian symbols during the holidays and there are no laws against that. I know a couple resturants that display Norman Rockwell art showing people saying grace but would be nice to see people actually be proud to display their allegiance to their faith. Be nice to go in and see the Lord's Prayer on a wall or hear a God Bless once in a while. I agree with you, some Christians just sit back and let things slip away. If you don't stand for something. Others will not see our view point and I don't expect them to. But by golly if my favorite restaurant wants to put that nativity scene in there business, then that is their right. If someone doesn't like it, too bad, don't eat there or just ACCEPT their view. I accept other views, I don't agree with them, but I accept them. If I see a place promoting other religions I don't condemn them, if I don't like it I just don't go there. Is it just me or am I correct in saying all this is an attack on Christianity? The point I just keep trying to make is if you are going to exclude one religion, you need to exclude them all. |
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I think the seperation of church and state is conatantly misinterpreted and misused. It is my understanding that the purpose of the concept was that the government cannot and should not IMPOSE religion upon others. It is a safeguard against persecution of other religions by a government that imposes, or only backs up one over the others. I dont think it was ever intended to mean government shun ANY and all religion or require its citizens and schools to. I think this is a very closed minded interpretation of seperation of church and state that does just the opposite of what the intent was. Seperation of church and state was about allowing ALL people to have their beliefs WITHOUT persecution or ridicule, not about shutting faith out altogether. EXACTLY!!!
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Is it ok for those who do believe to tell those who don't how to live? By the way, I don't see how those who don't believe are telling those who do believe how to live. No one is telling anyone they can't pray or anything like that. Some would just like to see religion kept out of public school. I don't see an issue with that. By telling someone that they can not pray where they want to, and with whom they want to, yes you are dictating how they pray. Again, if you, me and three there people want to form a small circle before lunch and pray together, giving thanks for the bountiful food, and the many gifts bestowed upon us, how does that harm anyone else? and to clarify the definition of the term harm: Noun 1. harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc. 2. harm - the occurrence of a change for the worse 3. harm - the act of damaging something or someone Verb 1. harm - cause or do harm to; "These pills won't harm your system" more examples may be found at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harm my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. |
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Edited by
franshade
on
Mon 10/12/09 07:40 AM
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Is it ok for those who do believe to tell those who don't how to live? By the way, I don't see how those who don't believe are telling those who do believe how to live. No one is telling anyone they can't pray or anything like that. Some would just like to see religion kept out of public school. I don't see an issue with that. By telling someone that they can not pray where they want to, and with whom they want to, yes you are dictating how they pray. Again, if you, me and three there people want to form a small circle before lunch and pray together, giving thanks for the bountiful food, and the many gifts bestowed upon us, how does that harm anyone else? and to clarify the definition of the term harm: Noun 1. harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc. 2. harm - the occurrence of a change for the worse 3. harm - the act of damaging something or someone Verb 1. harm - cause or do harm to; "These pills won't harm your system" more examples may be found at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harm my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. you just HURT my feelings -  Just another point, why don't you and your 3 friends do what makes you happy, pray, do jumping jacks, play freeze tag, but please stop when you want to dictate another person or group move, relocate because they don't believe as you. (not personal, just following your post) |
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EXACTLY, EXACTLY EXACTLY!!!
I think the seperation of church and state is conatantly misinterpreted and misused. It is my understanding that the purpose of the concept was that the government cannot and should not IMPOSE religion upon others. It is a safeguard against persecution of other religions by a government that imposes, or only backs up one over the others. I dont think it was ever intended to mean government shun ANY and all religion or require its citizens and schools to. I think this is a very closed minded interpretation of seperation of church and state that does just the opposite of what the intent was. Seperation of church and state was about allowing ALL people to have their beliefs WITHOUT persecution or ridicule, not about shutting faith out altogether. |
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I have heard the same thing, and not just with President Roosevelt, but others as well. There have also been Presidents who have outright refused to place their hands on the bible.
No, neither when swearing into public office, nor when in court and being sworn in, are you REQUIRED to put your hand on a bible. You ARE required to raise your hand in the air, which is only a symbolism of you showing who you are as you make the pledge, or oath. I really don't know this, but does the US president still has to put his hand on the Bible when he is sworn into presidency, and also , when there is a trial in a court, they have to put their hands on the Bible also? Only including using the Bible/a Bible is a personal choice, Theodore Roosevelt did not use a Bible when he was sworn into office. Believe there wasn't one around and he improvised using a diff book. |
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lol, I am glad someone took this question up Fran, and am very happy to say that not once did I dictate that anyone "move, or relocate". What I said is if they do not like the fact that my friends and i are having a group prayer, and they do not want to listen in on it, then they CAN move to another locale while we have our group prayer; not that they HAVE to. Is it ok for those who do believe to tell those who don't how to live? By the way, I don't see how those who don't believe are telling those who do believe how to live. No one is telling anyone they can't pray or anything like that. Some would just like to see religion kept out of public school. I don't see an issue with that. By telling someone that they can not pray where they want to, and with whom they want to, yes you are dictating how they pray. Again, if you, me and three there people want to form a small circle before lunch and pray together, giving thanks for the bountiful food, and the many gifts bestowed upon us, how does that harm anyone else? and to clarify the definition of the term harm: Noun 1. harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc. 2. harm - the occurrence of a change for the worse 3. harm - the act of damaging something or someone Verb 1. harm - cause or do harm to; "These pills won't harm your system" more examples may be found at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harm my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. you just HURT my feelings - Just another point, why don't you and your 3 friends do what makes you happy, pray, do jumping jacks, play freeze tag, but please stop when you want to dictate another person or group move, relocate because they don't believe as you. (not personal, just following your post) |
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btw, Fran please forgive me, but your new photo is fabulous! I hope you don't mind my saying so, but when I first saw it, I immediately thought of Oprah
 
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