They don't tell them how to live.

They don't bother them at all in their religion.

They don't care how devout they want to be.

Just keep it out of the government.

If they cannot include all religions and non religious in their public displays then they are not respecting everyone so best to keep it private.

so because she refuses to say the pledge of allegiance, she should be denied an education? how is that american?

I believe that all the religions should be treated equally. All should be heard or none at all.

Btw, I'm a Christian.

My kids didn't say it..they are loyal to many things..just not a piece of cloth! Their still entitled to an education...they ARE Americans.

Is it ok for those who do believe to tell those who don't how to live?

By the way, I don't see how those who don't believe are telling those who do believe how to live. No one is telling anyone they can't pray or anything like that. Some would just like to see religion kept out of public school. I don't see an issue with that.

I never had to say the pledge of allegiance in order to be loyal to my country. I'm loyal to this country with or without having to say so.

Children are given an education and will more than likely be loyal to this country regardless. Just because you say the pledge doesn't make anyone any more loyal to this country than someone who does.

Benedict Arnold was loyal to this country before he betrayed us.

How often do we have to state a commitment (pledge) to a symbolic representation (flag) of an abstract concept (nationalism) in order to gain a feeling of loyalty?

And when we speak of loyalty, what priority do we place on an oath or a pledge compared to other loyalties or beliefs we have developed through our personal experiences?

How much more "united" do you feel with an unknown neighbor just because they wave the symbol of your allegience?

If this pledge thing works so well, why don't we make a pledge to humanity instead and wave a flag of people shaking hands?

We learn only one thing through symbolic gestures of state - how to use propaganda to unite poeple in a cause. The causes can take many forms but history reveals the most abundant causes of governments, in need of a united nation, are fabricated.

Perhaps loyalty would be better taught to a more enlightened population.

I pledge conditional allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and some times Canada and Mexico at least as long as the country's leaders totally agree with me on policy. And to the republic for which it stands as a symbol of brainwashed sheeple. One nation under some kind of unifying concept whether its God, or American Idol, or anarchy, or tonights lottery numbers. Indivisible unless you count the right winger and the left wingers. With liberty constantly redifined by my narrow minded self interest and justice as long as it applies to corrupt right wingers like Glen Beck for almost all.

Allah means God, Jehovah means God. Zeus means God, Quetzalcoatl means God. They may have names, but the people see them as God.

I agree actually. People should be able to say a prayer anywhere they wish. IF they wish to pray to allah, or mother mary, or just meditate and reflect upon themselves,, it shouldnt be an exception to freedom of speech. It does not lie in the same category as lying about others or causing potential harm like libel or slander of other exceptions to the freedom of speech that are there to PROTECT.

I think it's done for show, in regards to the Pres. As far as the attorney and in court go, the neighbor behind us said that no, it's not necessary. Just let the bailiff know and he won't whip out the Bible.

I love my country and would give my life to defend it but the Pledge has been a problem for me for a long time.

Not because of the God thing because I think people pretty much get to define God as anything they want, even non existent if that is what they believe.

The justice and liberty for all really bugged me as a kid because as a kid I don't think there is a lot of justice. We are property of our guardians and even the state but as a kid you have very few rights.

It has also always bugged me that instead of pledgeing to high standards for my country I should be pldgeing myself to the world. If more people would pledge to the world there would be less division and fighting over borders and who's government is in charge. Maybe if children everywhere were indoctrinated to pledge to the world maybe we would do less to destroy it.

AMEN!!

Well I hope by keeping religion out of the government and state supported schools they don't come in and try to mess it up. I have seen how badly governments have messed up other stuff they have been involved in so I don't want the government in my church telling me what God says or how I am to worship or where I have to tythe.

With Christians more and more in the minority I figure we might all end up worshipping a robot. I could just see the Commandments if they were written by Government.

I really wish more people, especially Christians, would put more money into building churches and charities, schools, and faith based businesses. It really pains me to see so few private property and business owners that don't display symbols of their faith. I can count the number of Nativities I have seen in peoples yard on one hand. Very few private businesses display Crosses or any Christian symbols during the holidays and there are no laws against that. I know a couple resturants that display Norman Rockwell art showing people saying grace but would be nice to see people actually be proud to display their allegiance to their faith. Be nice to go in and see the Lord's Prayer on a wall or hear a God Bless once in a while.

Ah- but division between people within a nation IS about maintaining what individuals and like-minded others think best upholds the underlying principles of the representative government which creates and enforces them as a service to its people. This is the social contract. Part of the agreement is that the people will maintain the integrity of the ideals behind the social contract. This is not so much a loyalty as a responsibility—it has nothing to do with loyalty to a government. Only absolutists, dictators, and the like require loyalty.
Even loyalty to a particular party can be a destructive force within a free society (as it seems you have pointed out.) Thanks.



The high standards of a country—should be the ideology behind government and that ideology comes from the people. So you are right and those who are activists within their communities, their nation, are making good on the social contract—they are demonstrating their loyalty to upholding the principles of their ideal government.



What you wish for seems to be a reinforcement of your personal ideology, which is not a bad thing but we have to consider WHAT ideals we want to reflect our nations policies and laws. When one expects their religious ideals reflected in the state, they must realize that they are asking to promote discrimination and even segregation. Here is one of my own ideolgies—that we stop wasting money (many millions of dollars a year) and time trying to put or keep religious specific values in the law which governs a diverse population. For example, how much money is raised and spent and how much time and effort is devoted to separating gays and lesbians from equality of the law? But instead of building new “symbols” of ideology why not work together for humanitarian causes, here and abroad with the same funds and the same zest and effort? That’s an ideology I would have instilled in our government—helping our fellow man. And it sounds like you would back that up over other symbols as well because the symbols you seem to admire are inside of you and your actions construct them as surely as wood and cement.

I think the seperation of church and state is conatantly misinterpreted and misused. It is my understanding that the purpose of the concept was that the government cannot and should not IMPOSE religion upon others. It is a safeguard against persecution of other religions by a government that imposes, or only backs up one over the others. I dont think it was ever intended to mean government shun ANY and all religion or require its citizens and schools to. I think this is a very closed minded interpretation of seperation of church and state that does just the opposite of what the intent was. Seperation of church and state was about allowing ALL people to have their beliefs WITHOUT persecution or ridicule, not about shutting faith out altogether.

i'll ask robin to post the story about the odessa mall owner here; it'll give you some warm fuzzies (like it did me)

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there are literally hundreds of nativity scenes in the area in which is live (which is filled with mostly italian and portuguese catholics, along with a fairly large muslim population)

i am proud of my faith but it isn't something that i need to show to the world, but rather is a personal thing which i keep close to my heart, where it is most important.