100% FREE ONLINE DATING
sponsored links
Previous
| Topic: Pledge of Allegience | |
|---|---|
|
|
|
lol, I am glad someone took this question up Fran, and am very happy to say that not once did I dictate that anyone "move, or relocate". What I said is if they do not like the fact that my friends and i are having a group prayer, and they do not want to listen in on it, then they CAN move to another locale while we have our group prayer; not that they HAVE to. Your wording my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. reread your post - go somewhere else - is not providing a choice it's telling someone to move. Oprahlike enough for you  |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
By telling someone that they can not pray where they want to, and with whom they want to, yes you are dictating how they pray. Again, if you, me and three there people want to form a small circle before lunch and pray together, giving thanks for the bountiful food, and the many gifts bestowed upon us, how does that harm anyone else? and to clarify the definition of the term harm: Noun 1. harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc. 2. harm - the occurrence of a change for the worse 3. harm - the act of damaging something or someone Verb 1. harm - cause or do harm to; "These pills won't harm your system" more examples may be found at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harm my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. You don't want someone to tell you where you can or cannot pray, yet it's ok for you to tell someone to go somewhere else while a prayer is being said if they don't like it? Why is that ok? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
By telling someone that they can not pray where they want to, and with whom they want to, yes you are dictating how they pray. Again, if you, me and three there people want to form a small circle before lunch and pray together, giving thanks for the bountiful food, and the many gifts bestowed upon us, how does that harm anyone else? and to clarify the definition of the term harm: Noun 1. harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc. 2. harm - the occurrence of a change for the worse 3. harm - the act of damaging something or someone Verb 1. harm - cause or do harm to; "These pills won't harm your system" more examples may be found at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harm my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. You don't want someone to tell you where you can or cannot pray, yet it's ok for you to tell someone to go somewhere else while a prayer is being said if they don't like it? Why is that ok? SSSSSSSShhhhhhhhhh  he'll say you remind him of Oprah too |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
By telling someone that they can not pray where they want to, and with whom they want to, yes you are dictating how they pray. Again, if you, me and three there people want to form a small circle before lunch and pray together, giving thanks for the bountiful food, and the many gifts bestowed upon us, how does that harm anyone else? and to clarify the definition of the term harm: Noun 1. harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture etc. 2. harm - the occurrence of a change for the worse 3. harm - the act of damaging something or someone Verb 1. harm - cause or do harm to; "These pills won't harm your system" more examples may be found at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harm my point is, to harm someone, you have to somehow HURT them, and it does not hurt anyone in any way, to stand by and let several students say a prayer together. If you don't agree wit the prayer, or the thoughts behind it, go somewhere else while it is being said. You don't want someone to tell you where you can or cannot pray, yet it's ok for you to tell someone to go somewhere else while a prayer is being said if they don't like it? Why is that ok? SSSSSSSShhhhhhhhhh he'll say you remind him of Oprah too
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
btw, Fran please forgive me, but your new photo is fabulous! I hope you don't mind my saying so, but when I first saw it, I immediately thought of Oprah   Oprah? I don't see that. I see one hot woman in Fran's pic. |
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
Dragoness
on
Mon 10/12/09 08:32 AM
|
|
Very well put lula. People stand up and claim that they want the homes to teach kids the personal values, beliefs and morals etc, and that the school should be more for teaching societal rules, and beliefs etc. A big problem erupts though in circumstances as the pledge of allegiance (as one example). The pledge is supposed to stand for American citizenry standing together as a Nation, Hence "one Nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all". As far as separation of Church and State, I think it is a big joke, because if you look back on history, the state and church have NEVER been separated. But getting back to the pledge of allegiance, let's dissect it here. "I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America" This clearly and without question is simply someone standing up and stating that they will follow the guidelines of the United States, represented by it's flag. "and to the Republic, for which it stands" Right here is a reiteration of the same thing; that we as American citizens will follow the guidelines of the United States of America (the Republic). "one Nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all This line right here defines, what the Republic is: one nation, under God; it does not claim which God, or which religion, just says under God. It goes on to say that the country is indivisible which means that we will not be divided against each other by a common enemy (Russia and Communism in the 50's); and in the end it says that the Republic stands for liberty and justice for all. So, reiterated, the pledge of allegiance to me, says: "I, Daniel L. Starrett, agree that I am an American citizen, and that as such, I will support the United States of America, and follow all of it's laws and regulations. The United states is only one Nation in which I could be a member, yet it's citizen's stand together in times of peril, and can not be divided amongst each other. In the end, we all fall under one God, whomever that God may or may not be, and believe with our whole hearts that every man, woman and child alive today has the right to liberty and justice, no matter what." So, looking at it from this point of view, no I do not have a single problem with it being said in the schools. It does not teach or say anything at all based off of any specific religious belief. It does not call our boys and girls to arms, or indoctrinate them into a certain belief system other than to support their country, which I am sorry, but as a citizen of ANY Country you should be willing to support that Country no matter what (Note I say Country and not politics). Should our children be forced to say this pledge? No; by it's very own words, "liberty for all", to force someone to say it would be to take their liberty, or freedom, away. HOWEVER, on the reverse side, to force others to NOT be able to say it also removes their liberty to do so. And as such, it all boils down to one phrase: Live and let live. My boys saying it does not harm your bys and girls who choose not to say it; and your children choosing to not say it is not going to harm my boys in their wanting to say it. My girls say it in school every day! Yay! I have no problem saying and I also don't have a problem for those who don't wish to say it. To each his own. suspend a straight-A child for such? really? i think not! i flat-out refused to have her punished. i refused to say it even in kindergarten. Good for you and for your daughter. I don't understand the rationality behind saying the pledge at all. Anyone know why it's even nessessary? there are those that get all riled up that schools are doing an obama dance and song...and yet, to me, the pledge is along the same lines. If it was mandatory and children were being FORCED to say it, then yes. It's not though, well at least in some schools. haha comparing the obama song to the American flag is laughable. Oh well guys, another brick wall post, we just won't agree or change each other's minds.  Great Country to have these freedoms of speech.  lol, they aren't the same...but they both have the feel of indoctrination, sort of. sort of like we're getting the kids used to something at an early age, whether that be supporting the flag or supporting obama. we do the same thing when we take our kids to church or to a meal...we get them used to how we want them to be when they grow up. when it's us as parents doing it, it's raising the kids. when it's the school doing it...there's more wondering about the reasons. and it doesn't have to be a brick wall that we disagree. this is a place for many views to have an open discussion and share different viewpoints. It doesn't say Under gods, what if I believe in more than one. I want all of mine recognized too. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I believe the person specifically stated that those who wish to pray would NOT make those who did nto wish to participate. So I ask you, what right do you, I or anyone else havbe to tell three students who believe in God and prayer, that they can not form a little group and pray together, so long as they are not trying to force their belief on someone else? And dont give me the bull pucky that it still forces others to watch it and achnowledge it, because by not joining in with the prayer, or by not allwoing the freedom for others TO pray, you are forcing your belief standard upon those who do nt agree with you. Pledging allegiance would have been able to stay in the schools had it not been for the unfounded fear of communists....lol That is funny to me. Ironically, the original pledge stance looked like the Nazi salute, but that too was changed to make it "more American".  be seeing you Back to the nazi salute? probably back to no God,, judging from the current culture. I think it should be elective, I always have thought it should be. However, I dont see how saying it hurts anyone. Its like a prayer, I dont think schools should impose upon children that they have to pray but I dont think it right to disallow those who want to to do so when it doesnt hurt anyone. People can pray silently at any time of day or to themselves quietly at any time of day. There is no need to have to do it in a group that involves those who do not believe in that god. Indoctrination of religion should not be allowed. Noone said they couldn't, just keep it to themselves. Religion is personal. As someone said on here maybe if I am too close to you when you pray my god may feel I am worshiping a false god because your god is not my god. So I don't want anything to do with your worshiping because my god may strike me down for being there when it happens. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pledging allegiance would have been able to stay in the schools had it not been for the unfounded fear of communists....lol That is funny to me. Ironically, the original pledge stance looked like the Nazi salute, but that too was changed to make it "more American". be seeing you Back to the nazi salute? probably back to no God,, judging from the current culture. I think it should be elective, I always have thought it should be. However, I dont see how saying it hurts anyone. Its like a prayer, I dont think schools should impose upon children that they have to pray but I dont think it right to disallow those who want to to do so when it doesnt hurt anyone. People can pray silently at any time of day or to themselves quietly at any time of day. There is no need to have to do it in a group that involves those who do not believe in that god. Indoctrination of religion should not be allowed. We basically just agreed. People should be permitted to pray quietly at any time of day but there are schools where children are not permitted to do so,,, even silently. I do not think this is right. They are not stopped from praying to themselves...lol How can anyone stop them? Read their mind? How would anyone know that is what they are doing? A judge, faulting "the loss of moral values in public education," on Friday ordered the reinstatement of a school principal who was suspended because he let a student read a prayer over the school intercom. The principal, Bishop Knox, became the center of an uproar after he was dismissed in November. Hundreds of people attended rallies, students walked out of many schools around the state, and politicians, including Gov. Kirk Fordice, spoke out in favor of school prayer. The State Legislature passed a law allowing prayer initiated by students, even though some lawmakers expressed doubts This is the type of thing I meant. I may have misworded it. I believe there is a place for all interests in our culture. Schools have many extracurricular activities for like minded individuals to participate in common activities. I dont see why prayer should not be permitted to be one as well if it is voluntary and not mandatory. Does free speech stop when someone mention GOD? Just an opnion though,,obviously Don't read the damn thing over the intercom to those who don't want to hear it and you won't have any problems. Whose god was the prayer too? If it wasn't to my god why should I have to listen to it? If it is a religious prayer should it not include my god and your god and everyone's god? One person's god is not another's. You cannot disrespect other gods by showing preference for one. NO religion should be allowed to respect all religions. I don't think it's appropriate for school to read a prayer aloud over intercom, but however could do what some other schools have done. Up here in Utah, some high schools provide an on campus "mini church" and extra curricular activities that relate to "religion", anyone who is interested can sign up, other than that they don't force one particular religion onto anyone and if you don't like it you avoid it. I think that more schools including elementary's should offer this kind of support, rather than cause a ruckus between students and teachers, thus avoiding anyone getting suspended, expelled or fired. Why not save money and say the dang prayers at home before school, in church on sunday, on the dang bus to oneself on the way to school. It's ridiculous to be building mini churches to accomadate religion. Personally I think it's just another sneaky way to incorporate religion into schools. And which religion does the mini church apply to. Geezuz, I really think we humans are loosing our minds. I bet of the prayer was from the Koran there would have been hell to pay for that one. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
To tell you the truth, I never knew that this caused problems for people saying "Under God". Under which god? Is there a god to be under? Why do we have to be "under" a god? If it is not my god that we are "under" am I being discriminated against? Should I have to be under someone elses god? .................. See? Its really semantics I guess. Whatever God means to the pledgee. It doesnt say Yahweh or allah, just generic GOD. Some people have a Green God (the almighty dollar) , some have a fleshly God(whatever feels good), some people worship Allah, some worship the government, some worship rebellion,,,I think God in the pledge is pretty non conformist which is why it doesnt offend me. It would be different if It said ALLAH. Yes, but you believe in God, right? Many out there don't. Well, I do believe everyone worships someone or something,,I just dont believe everyone sees that person or thing as God though. Everyone worships someone or something? I'm not religious at all and don't worship anything. I don't either and certainly not gods I can not see hear or feel. Hell I don't 'worship' things I can see. |
|
|
|
|
|
Edited by
TJN
on
Mon 10/12/09 09:13 AM
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all.  No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all. No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883  does this fall under the oh no I won't but you can feel free to??? The speak for yourself talk about running with it
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all. No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883 hahaha I love it! Good one!! I don't hear too many objections that one yet. Now that's a flag I would burn. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all. No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883 hahaha I love it! Good one!! I don't hear too many objections that one yet. Now that's a flag I would burn. Here's an objection. I don't support that flag nor do I support the paranoia behind it. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all. No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883 hahaha I love it! Good one!! I don't hear too many objections that one yet. Now that's a flag I would burn. Here's an objection. I don't support that flag nor do I support the paranoia behind it. I personaly see no paranoia behind it. But I'd be willing to place bets that you will see some flying that flag. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On prayer in school:
I don't care if anyone or any group chooses to pray in school as long as it's not sanctioned by the school and not done to be a spectacle. I can hang out with my friends and discuss girls. They can say their prayer. No problem by me. But the school setting aside time for prayer is unnecessary and even a bit manipulative. I can pray whenever I want anyhow. On the pledge: Putting the words 'under God' in to the pledge was a mistake. But it's no more of a problem to me than the words 'in God we trust' on my currency. Doesn't bother me, but it obviously is exclusionary. I only worry about the precedent, but I know there are plenty of people that care more than I that will keep it in check. I do find the saying of the pledge to have a certain 'indoctrination' feel to it. I do say it, mainly because it makes me think about my country, my pride in it, and my perceived obligations to make it a better place. It is interesting that we make people that become citizens take an oath to the country, but as citizen born in the U.S., the oath is really only implied. (Won't stop you from being tried for treason though if you happen to go that direction) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all. No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883 hahaha I love it! Good one!! I don't hear too many objections that one yet. Now that's a flag I would burn. Here's an objection. I don't support that flag nor do I support the paranoia behind it. I personaly see no paranoia behind it. But I'd be willing to place bets that you will see some flying that flag. That would be their choice to fly it, right? No one is forcing anyone to do so. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Soon we will be saying the pledge like this I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Obama, indivisible, with higher taxes and no rights for all. No it's not photshoped. You can get one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390080162883 hahaha I love it! Good one!! I don't hear too many objections that one yet. Now that's a flag I would burn. Here's an objection. I don't support that flag nor do I support the paranoia behind it. I personaly see no paranoia behind it. But I'd be willing to place bets that you will see some flying that flag. That would be their choice to fly it, right? No one is forcing anyone to do so. I never said anything about being forced to do it. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think the pledge should be mandatory. it should be a choice. I don't think anyone that doesn't want to say it is bad. it's their choice to decide as it is my choice to decide.
as far as religion in schools....sometimes "separation of church and state" contradicts the 1st amendment example: a boy prays silently before eating his lunch. not bothering anyone and not saying anything. someone that doesn't like religion is bothered by this. should they tell the boy he can't pray quietly before lunch if that is part of his religious beliefs just because someone sees him bowing his head and closing his eyes and not saying a word and doesn't like it? this actually happened at my son's school. not sure what ended up happening. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think the pledge should be mandatory. it should be a choice. I don't think anyone that doesn't want to say it is bad. it's their choice to decide as it is my choice to decide. as far as religion in schools....sometimes "separation of church and state" contradicts the 1st amendment example: a boy prays silently before eating his lunch. not bothering anyone and not saying anything. someone that doesn't like religion is bothered by this. should they tell the boy he can't pray quietly before lunch if that is part of his religious beliefs just because someone sees him bowing his head and closing his eyes and not saying a word and doesn't like it? this actually happened at my son's school. not sure what ended up happening. This is the kind of thing that makes me shake my head. Any reasonable person wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying a silent prayer. But, as is usual, extremists make everyone else miserable. |
|
|
|
|
