Killing someone in self defense or in war isn't necessarily murder. I don't support suicide, but sometimes killing another human is necessary.

Oh yeah totally. Self defense is entirely justifiable. Its also a spontaneous occurance if someone comes at you, your body is going to react. Its a natural epinephrine derived impulse. Of course self defense can be VERY difficult to substantiate in a court of law. Generally because you normally have two individuals involved and one isnt speaking obviously. But this is probably getting anyway.

THE OP Ladies and gentlemen - stick with the subject at hand - start new OP's if you want to talk about other things - thnx



ok here's the crux of my OP for all who are arguing about side issues OK?

god created everything correct? in doing so he created the potential for sin to enter into that creation by giving men free will and free choice correct?

then if sin did enter he is responsible for the sin entering correct?

WHY? if he had not created as he chose to do, then sin as we know or think of it could not exist - thus he is responsible for it and everything else in creation you can not separate one part of creation out and say NO he's not responsible for sin, no more than you can separate out goodness and say he's not responsible for good.

bottom line? "GOD" is responsible for allowing sin to come about to allow man to be tempted by another of his creations/Satan whom already had sinned before man was ever created, so he had full knowledge as to what could go wrong beforehand and still want forward with his plans, thus god is guilty of allowing the potential for sin to exist and be acted upon.

God made man for his glory and his good plesure, and the fact that God's loveing nature can not have or deal with sin says that he did not create man to fall. But get this, god created man to be able to thimk for himself(free will) because he does not get any glory out of creating slaves who he knows will do everything he says. So, because he has free will it's man fault -Adam- that set the genrational curse into motion.

Incorrect. Faulty premise.

Prime source manifests.

There are many creator gods in my opinion, therefore the answer to the above question is ...NO.



Can you create potential?

It is another bad premise to say that god gave man "free will" when THE WILL is inherent in all consciousness in my opinion.

Of course you are arguing the Christian doctrine for some reason.

JB

Um Henry? God is "loving"? The Sodom and Gomorrah god? Are we speaking of the same here? Hmm. Im afraid thats simply not an accurate description at all. He's quite jealous and angry a good portion of the time. Incidentally, two emotions that are incompatible with his supposed "omniscience."

But who's keeping score.

Looking back on all the accusations and defenses as to what god is and is not responsible for, there seems to be a trend.

The common denominator appears to be that god is only responsible for those things which are deemed to be good in the eyes of whomever happens to be defending him. All things that are considered bad are the fault of man.

To me, the basic issue is the same as the one surrounding Pilot. He tried to abdicated any responsibility for the results of his actions and shift the blame onto the mob.

But simply denying responsibility doesn't cancel out the chain of cause-and-effect that led directly to the crucifiction.

So sure, god and his followers can deny and justify and argue. But none of that cancels out the simple cause-and-effect of what happened.

You can call it whatever you want, but if it looks like a duck, and it waddles like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, guess what .... ?

and thats what i'm getting at my friend, you can't keep stating that god created "good" and that he did not create evil or bad or wrong, doesn't work.

people i see keep taking it from an after creation view point - i take it from a before creation view point before anything was. god made all the choices we read of [whether you believe it or don't is not the point] as the story goes. so if sin entered the picture after he brought creation about, then he is responsible for it entering in to the scenario. it's not like it blindsided him - he knew disobedience was possible, so the buck starts and stops with him.

blaming man as all the C's do - is just incorrect - you have to look at the source, the core of why or how it came about - and that source for its being existant is -> GOD<-

well of course you know i'm talking of jehovah/yaway/jesus/etc.. why would i be saying this of ""creative source""? which is his real name by the way!!!

Arent we kind of ignoring the big white elephant in the middle of the room? What about the evil, cruel, inhumane acts that god himself perpetrated? Is it generally considered acceptable when a formless deity commits atrocities? I dont understand that at all.

wel here again my lady, i'm talking of things that were "before creation" not after. whether he or A&E or david or solomon or moses etc. sinned in this later on is irrevelant to who is to blame for bringing it in to existence to begin with.

in other words no creation of anything that could sin,= no sin.

people keep trying to pull the creation into it to make there point about mans choice. but i'm going back to before man was created or the angels, who put it together, who started it, who brought it about, who is to bless or blame for what happened after the 6th day when he said its finished. GODDDDDDD!!!!!

Uhh alright never mind then. Thats too fairy tailish for me. Carry on.

Hmmm... This thread has added a number of pages since I last viewed it. Forgive me for having had to take so long to catch up.

So... for the sake of those who see themselves as the center of all things, and having done so, chose themselves instead of God you would have God not create man? Makes no sense. Remeber - God gives every man/woman the desires of their heart. For those who's desire is not to "play along" and see him to be that which - through His prophets - he claims to be, he gives them exactly what they desire: Their eternity separate from him. Now, if he is as he claims to be, the creator of all things, than those who spend eternity apart from him are getting exactly what they want... However, that is not to say that they are allowed to get the eternity that they have created for themselves through either their own imagination - or that of someone else, so if their destination is hell (assuming there is one) they are going there, not because they chose to be there, but because they have chosen not to be with God, and all that there is in that reality is that which he created. Esentially for the same reason we live here on earth and onot on Jupiter. For we know that Jupiter is there, but despite any desire we may have to relocate there and occupy it as an alternative to earth, it's not happening. Simply put - it's the way it is. so - we live here on earth and make the best of it.

Now - on the other hand, there are those who - for whatever personal reason, be it looking up from the low of lows, or having been introduced to it in their youth, and never having found reason to turn away - chose God. Most of these (at least an overwhealming majority of those whom I have crossed paths with) find no fault with the plan of God, and go through life accepting the blessings, and dealing with the obstacles. For it is more often than not that those who are believers in God suffer the consequences of those who are not - and it would be nice if the option to eliminate such as these were readily available - but, alas - it's not. Just like relocating to Jupiter is not an option.

Now - despite the fact that there is a lot of things within life on this planet that cry out - SCREAM out to be remedied, the end of war, poverty, hate, bias, biggotry, the list goes on... It has never seemed to be within the desires of man to stop these things. They cry out to God to end these things, then tell the homeless guy on the street to "get a job", since they themselves can't get a clue.

So - while it may be true that evil exists, and if you wish, God created it - he's never been one to twist anyone's arm to participate in it, or to be a part of it. That I'm afraid is entirely man's doing.

And I don't get the sense that just not creating man is a solution to eliminating his propensity to be evil, without giving up his free will. That isn't a solution that is better than what God offers. He offers His son as a solution. What you suggest is no solution at all. For by it - you punish the rightious for the acts of the selfish, thereby catering to the wishes of those who's very intent is self centered, despite the consequences to those around them. Is that not attempting to erraticate evil by evil?

Despite hat you may think - it is exactly that: Pretext. That is not to say that the context may not be in line with what you are presuming the text to be, but you stated your premise in the OP and grab this text to support it. That's attempting to prove your point by pretext - not context, else you should be finding other texts that support your premise as context.

Attempting to associate calamity with evil is a shifting middle. God may cause the sky to bring forth rain at an accelerated rate - thereby causing flooding to occur. That is a calamity. But when a man murders another, that is not a calamity - that's merely evil. These two are not equal concepts, but by your "supportive passage" you would have it be presumed as such.

That's pretext.

Remember my friend - your dealing with a former Cultist here. I know my pretext.

But you speak of emotions as universally negative. I don't share that perspective. Emotions in and of themselves are not negative, acting negatively based on emotion is what is negative. Emotions are merely thoughts that bring about awareness. Those that tend to be sensed as negative are mere triggers for examining a situation for the reality of perception. Fear, love, hate, rage, all feelings that are triggered by a perception that initially miht be based on conjecture that is false. It is a natural part of existance. Without it - we could not survive. So how is God hampered by emotion? The difference between human emotion and the emotion of god, is that man is unsure of the nature of his emotions in the absolute - whereas God's emtions come from a realm of total absolute. The difficulty you are having is equating the emotions of God with those of men and the means of which they originate. This is a fallacy, because they are in no way related.

If so, then he's a B!tch!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able, AND willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.

- Epicurus

"""were talking on another thread about mans fall and some say its Satan who caused sin and others Adam and eve for eating and i who say it's god's fault!!

So here's my case in a nut shell - god started creation, god knew how everything would go, god decided to allow sin to enter into existence - therefore god is responsible for sin"""
.........................................................................
................. JUST SOME IDEAS ........................
RESPONSIBLE;
liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent.

SIN;
an offense against religious or moral law; transgression of the law of God.

GOD cant transgress against his own LAW, he is HOLLY!
'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts'..

transgression;
an act, process in violation of the law

we are so puny to GODS THOUGHTS AND ABILITIES we can not come close to even fathoming that WE CAN condemn OR JUDGE GOD. A germs intellect IN RATIO to a persons egos is, like a PIN to the UNIVERSE. He hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end,... instead, become “vain in their reasoning's, and their senseless heart be darkened.”

We assign utility to an idea if we think itS practical to act as if that idea were true regardless of whether the idea is, in fact, true: it only matters if it works; however, the extent to which we believe an idea works will depend on what we believe to be good OR JUST. An idea may help us get lots of stuff we want, causing us to assign a high degree of utility to that idea, but, just because it's true that acting in accordance with that idea works to get us what we want, this doesn't mean the idea is true or what we want is good.{http://www.mbticentral.com/forums/philosophy-spirituality/8229-how-can-benevolent-god-stand-existance-hell-eternal-suffering-10.html}

The transgressor was EVE AND ADAM by their free will to accept satans explanation that they would be as smart as GOD knowing good and evil AND WOULD MAKE THEM THEN A GOD (playing on her vanity and his ego)as well, and that would be a good thing. So they rationalized it out, ate the fruit from the true of knowledge, rather than just obeying GODS COMMANDMENT, much like people do today, and then get them selves in a pickle and it gets costly in some way, that for some it completely changes their life, and not always for the good, all for for being a transgressor of the law.


Jesus died once, and He cannot die again. Sin is forgiven once for all time - past, present, future... Blessings are inherited from Christ once and for all time, curses cannot come unless you let them. (Heb 10:10 And what God wants is for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.) Forgiveness is always there now, but accept it before you die, accept CHRIST and GODS gift.

........had satans powers and influence been bound, would there still be SIN???

yeah all that, or just read my quote above from a philosopher that had already figured that one out about 300 years before the FICTIONAL figure of Jesus supposedly existed.

But Satan went bad, very bad -

"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! [or Lucifer, which means light-bringer] You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like The Most High." (Isaiah 14:12-14)

God created the perfectly-righteous Lucifer, by God's choice. Lucifer created the absolutely-wicked Satan, by Lucifer's choice. Lucifer, and all of the millions of angels had the power of choice - to obey, or to rebel. Most chose to obey God, while some followed Satan's rebellion and have become hopelessly corrupt.


Satan didn't just refuse to obey God any longer, which was bad enough; he actually tried to overthrow God!
The attempted coup failed of course, as described by Jesus Christ: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:18)


Satan was not created evil. He began good. His name at his beginning was Lucifer, which means "light bringer," whereas Satan means "adversary." By all accounts, he was a loyal and obedient archangel for a very long time before he went wrong.

Why did God allow choice then? Well, using human marriage as an analogy, would you want to be married, forever, to someone who had absolutely no choice in the matter?

Or, would you want to be married to someone who personally chose to spend their life with you?


Since then Satan and his angels, now called demons, have been very busy - the evil and suffering in our world is all too plain. He particularly hates humans because he realizes that we are in line to inherit all that he threw away.

If there was ever a time when Satan would, or could repent, that would seem to be it. It almost seems that God is giving him one last chance. But what is Satan going to do? The Bible states plainly that upon regaining his freedom he is going to go right back to his evil activities. His fate will then be sealed. Forever.