So we also live outside of time.... our higher selves exist outside of earth time. But still, all exist in the present moment. It is only our earth incarnations who live within the confines of time. Even so, they all live in the moment.

The future does not exist until the decision is actually made, except in probabilities. In a way, you can know the future, but it is not set in stone. You can change your path and change events to a certain extent.

In reading the tarot, the energy of the future is sometimes revealed and the event seems set in stone, but that is because the person being read has no intention of changing her decision or direction. But if she did, she could change the future.

JB

Krimsa,

That is an incredibly skewed view of what I have posted.

Destiny is pre-known, not pre-determined. God already knows what you will do. God's fore-knowledge of your actions does not negate your responsibility in making those choices. And as previously pointed out, God blesses and tests all people, so nobody is treated more favorably than another. (Although, using the Bible, it's easy to argue that God tests his worshipers more rigorously than those who don't worship God.)

Can destiny be changed? Anything is possible.

Personal Destiny is designed by you, your higher self. It is unlikely that you will change it, but it is certainly possibly to do so.

How about world destiny? Yes it can also be changed, but it will take the efforts of the majority of the conscious beings participating in the game.

There are several outcomes to the game. There are many paths to reach them.

JB

Don't I know it!


I'm an expert wallower.

Preknown and predetermined are the same thing basically.

Spider Im a little confused by those terms and your rationalization. Im not arguing I just dont totally understand. I guess in very basic terms I feel that if he pre-knows, what I am going to do every step of the way, then that would lead me to the next plausible assumption that he knows my entire life and all of the choices I will make from cradle to grave. Whats the difference between that concept and the idea that he has predetermined the lives of ALL humans? I mean can we change the course from what god originally planned or does he need to do that?

Prescience (foreknowledge of events) would mean that God is aware of the actions.

Predetermined (To determine, decide, or establish in advance) would mean that God determined the actions.

Interesting distinction. In reading tarot cards I have seen future personal events that could have been changed... but the person being read had already made their choices and had no intention to change. After I told them what would happen, they were "aware" of the results of their decision but they refused to believe it.

At that point, I knew what was going to happen although I did not cause it to happen. They did. They just did not realize it.

But they could have changed their attitude and their choice if they had to will to do so. Yet they would not. I knew they would not...or at least I was pretty sure they would not.

So I can see your point here.

There is only one God and he does not share power - Gandolf the Gray in Lord of the Rings

The bolded sentence is where your confusion comes from. God has a plan for your life, he has objectives and goals for you. God will gently goad you towards those goals, but all of the choices are yours. Every single action you take from the moment you are born to the moment you die are determined by you. When you are a baby, you react to stimuli as your brain is wired to do by your genetics. When you become able to think and make decisions, it is your thoughts that drive the process. God does not choose any of your actions for you. God is an observer, just as someone re-watching a movie is an observer. Awareness of the actions of the characters does not effect their actions.

No...

God did not allow sin..

he allowed choice...

man chose to sin!

Exactly.

God's purpose was to allow free-will. Free-will means that we can choose to go against God's will. Good does not come from going against God's will.

my lady, it still goes back, and always will to who created them to begin with, all else is side issues. had they not been created there would be no chance of sin. he is - guilty as charged.

The possiblity for sin is a product of free-will. Free-will allows for humans and angels to choose to be good and choose to love and be loved. As such, sin is a by product, an unfortunate side effect. Sin is not created (sin isn't created, it's an action) by God, God gave all free-willed agents the ability to sin.

no deb the op is this - is god "RESPONSIBLE"

it still goes back to creation of a scenario that god brought about, no scenario - no sin - no choices - no fall of man - it was gods intebtion to bring this about, if it had not taken place your jesus would have no reason to be born and die and ressurected

exactly!

bowl****t ; your totally off topic here - the OP was about resposibiltiy - by the mere fact that he brought everything into existance and had a plan to go ahead with this scenario in the book as we read it, makes him culpable for everything that did, is, and will, take place!!

your debating things that are after the fact, thats nonsense and a waste of time.

the """CORE""" of the matter is [once again] is god reponsible for all that happens?

Yes he is, and that includes bringing into existance creation itself, if he had not made man - man could not have sinned - bottom line.

By bringing forth creation sin entered in, no creation - no sin no fall no history no forum no nothing!!!

what part of if god had not created anything do you not understand spidey???


idont care about things after the fact my OP was is god responsible?

Thats right.In the Frank Herbert's Dune sci fi novels, Muadib the Kwizat Haderach, could see the future,but by seeing the future he was creating the future.By knowing and percieving something,you are also defining that something.

Without Love there would be no hate.....Without Light thre would be no darkness....Without Good there would be mo evil. Without Valleys there would be no mountains.