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| Topic: IS GOD RESPONSABLE FOR EVERYTHING OR NOT | |
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what part of if god had not created anything do you not understand spidey??? idont care about things after the fact my OP was is god responsible? No, God isn't responsible for your actions or anyone else's, for that matter. God allowed for the possibility of sin, so that mankind could have free will. |
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There is only one God and he does not share power - Gandolf the Gray in Lord of the Rings Hi smiles. I will have to disagree with Gandolf. There are many creator gods and power is given to those who are responsible enough to use it. |
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But, doesn't God know who will choose him and who will not before they are even born? So, knowing most would not choose him, he created them anyway with the full knowledge that they would "suffer the consequences". exactly! I don't think God knows who will choose him and who will not before that are even born. Not possible, even for a god. Even Prime source does not know these things in my opinion. |
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Awwww to the contrary.
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But, doesn't God know who will choose him and who will not before they are even born? So, knowing most would not choose him, he created them anyway with the full knowledge that they would "suffer the consequences". exactly! I don't think God knows who will choose him and who will not before that are even born. Not possible, even for a god. Even Prime source does not know these things in my opinion. God doesn't exist in our dimension of time, therefore God knows everything that will happen at all points in our dimension of time. You cannot say that God created the universe (which includes time), but that God is somehow constrained by our universes dimension of time. That makes no sense at all. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Mon 10/20/08 01:01 PM
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No... God did not allow sin.. he allowed choice... man chose to sin! Exactly. God's purpose was to allow free-will. Free-will means that we can choose to go against God's will. Good does not come from going against God's will. The choice or "Will" is inherent in all conscious beings manifested by Prime Source. No lesser creator god can give or take that away. Will is always free because God is always free. "Sin" is a term only defined and used within the confines of religious doctrine and has no meaning outside of that doctrine. "Sin" is defined as disobedience to a lesser creator God who demands you to worship and honor his authority as your Lord and Master. He states that the wages of sin (disobedience) to him is death and reserves the right to take your life and soul if you do not comply. That is tyranny. But this lessor creator god is not the Prime Creative Source and he did not give you "free will." The will is inherent in all conscious beings manifested by Prime Source. Only Prime source can give life. Lessor creator gods can only manipulate the lower life forms and bodies. This is my opinion so don't get all worked up about it.  |
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Spider Im a little confused by those terms and your rationalization. Im not arguing I just dont totally understand. I guess in very basic terms I feel that if he pre-knows, what I am going to do every step of the way, then that would lead me to the next plausible assumption that he knows my entire life and all of the choices I will make from cradle to grave. Whats the difference between that concept and the idea that he has predetermined the lives of ALL humans? I mean can we change the course from what god originally planned or does he need to do that? The bolded sentence is where your confusion comes from. God has a plan for your life, he has objectives and goals for you. God will gently goad you towards those goals, but all of the choices are yours. Every single action you take from the moment you are born to the moment you die are determined by you. When you are a baby, you react to stimuli as your brain is wired to do by your genetics. When you become able to think and make decisions, it is your thoughts that drive the process. God does not choose any of your actions for you. God is an observer, just as someone re-watching a movie is an observer. Awareness of the actions of the characters does not effect their actions. So by extension of your "re-watching a movie" analogy, god is already well aware of what the outcomes of all of our lives will be correct? He has that understanding. Yet he doesnt control our own decisions because according to you, he did in fact give us free will to do as we please. So is this your idea of god that he is merely an observer of what he already knows will take place? Is he passive in that sense? Isnt that an almost deist conceptualization of a creator that "sets it and forgets" ? Or is he a meddlesome god that is constantly testing and causing problems in order to see how strong our faith is. You had already a few posts back mentioned that non-believers will be tested more stringently I think? Wouldn't that in effect mean that those who are practicing Christians would not be subject to the same hardships or potentially self destructive circumstances that can manifest themselves over the course of our lives? So, can you clear this up? Im just trying to make sure I am understanding you. No arguing. |
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So by extension of your "re-watching a movie" analogy, god is already well aware of what the outcomes of all of our lives will be correct? He has that understanding. Yet he doesnt control our own decisions because according to you, he did in fact give us free will to do as we please. So is this your idea of god that he is merely an observer of what he already knows will take place? Is he passive in that sense? Isnt that an almost deist conceptualization of a creator that "sets it and forgets" ? Or is he a meddlesome god that is constantly testing and causing problems in order to see how strong our faith is. You had already a few posts back mentioned that non-believers will be tested more stringently I think? Wouldn't that in effect mean that those who are practicing Christians would not be subject to the same hardships or potentially self destructive circumstances that can manifest themselves over the course of our lives? So, can you clear this up? Im just trying to make sure I am understanding you. No arguing. No analogy is perfect. God goads us gently through using our conscience and testing us. So while God knows how it will play out, God treats us the same. For instance, if you read the Old Testament, you will see God blessing the Israelites. Several times he says something like "Although you will eventually betray me, you are faithful now so I will bless you." God's awareness of our future actions doesn't effect how God treats us in most, if not all cases. To the bolded statement above: No, I said the opposite. The believers are more harshly tested than the non-believer. This is shown again and again throughout the Old Testament. Look at Job...why doesn't Satan do that same thing to everybody? Because not everybody has been so blessed by God that God feels such a harsh test is justified. |
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God doesnt test anyone, the world and its circumstances tests us. We either rise to the occasion or wallow in self pity. did you miss the book of job and it kinda answers this debate as well I certainly did not. Did you not read one of my responses on that thread? That is a fable and it is one of several depicted in the bible. fable Definition fa·ble (fā′bəl) noun 1. a fictitious story meant to teach a moral lesson: the characters are usually talking animals 2. a myth or legend 3. a story that is not true; falsehood 4. Archaic the plot of a literary work And Im uncertain as to which debates have supposedly been resolved? Perhaps to your satisfaction but not to mine or obviously several others participating on thread. well if job is a faable then i guess it all can be considered a fable and no i do not recall i usually do not come here very often for the simple fact that organized religion is the root of evil |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 10/20/08 01:34 PM
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God doesnt test anyone, the world and its circumstances tests us. We either rise to the occasion or wallow in self pity. did you miss the book of job and it kinda answers this debate as well I certainly did not. Did you not read one of my responses on that thread? That is a fable and it is one of several depicted in the bible. fable Definition fa·ble (fā′bəl) noun 1. a fictitious story meant to teach a moral lesson: the characters are usually talking animals 2. a myth or legend 3. a story that is not true; falsehood 4. Archaic the plot of a literary work And Im uncertain as to which debates have supposedly been resolved? Perhaps to your satisfaction but not to mine or obviously several others participating on thread. well if job is a faable then i guess it all can be considered a fable and no i do not recall i usually do not come here very often for the simple fact that organized religion is the root of evil Right. Actually we are in agreement there. Yes my personal belief is that these biblical tales are most all fables however some may have elements of historical fact intermixed. In other words, they are based on eye witness accounts in some cases which we know can be considerably flawed or lack credibility all together due to the fact that each individual human interprets stimulus differently. If you have ever been in a court room and have seen multiple witnesses cross examined on the stand, you will understand this phenomena completely. |
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It's just beating a dead horse....imo
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 10/20/08 01:53 PM
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what part of if god had not created anything do you not understand spidey??? don't care about things after the fact my OP was is god responsible? No, God isn't responsible for your actions or anyone Else's, for that matter. God allowed for the possibility of sin, so that mankind could have free will. well evidently you have just joined in on the discussion and not read the entire post. my stance again is this - if god created everything [brought it into existence], then he is responsible for everything that takes place - you are taking it to mean something after the fact, talking of choice and free will, not what the OP intended - god your god - created everything and in doing so brought about the capability of sin to enter into the creation, sweet and simple, without creation sin would not exist for us [A&E] to have chosen it. the bottom line is god is responsible for creating the opportunity for sin to take place, choices to be made, a fall from grace to occur. with out creation this would not be so. end of story. so who is to blame - GODDDDDD!!! no creation, no sin!! he doesn't have to be "responsible for my or others actions" the point is again no creation no sin!! and as to "possibility" of sin occurring this is not true by what i read of your god, he knew for a fact that man would sin,fall,disobey,be tempted, etc. were not talking ""possibility"" were talking a definite fact! you'd better read this ""entire post"" before going further all this has already been discussed here between me and eljay and deb and - morning song[off line] |
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what part of if god had not created anything do you not understand spidey??? idont care about things after the fact my OP was is god responsible? No, God isn't responsible for your actions or anyone else's, for that matter. God allowed for the possibility of sin, so that mankind could have free will. well evidentally yu have just joined in on the discussion and not read the entire post. my stance again is this - if god created everything [brought it into existance], then he is reponsible for everything that takes place - you are taking it to mean something after the fact, talking of choice and free will, not what the OP intended - god your god - created everything and in doing so brought about the capability of sin to enter into the creation, sweet and simple, without creation sin would not exist for us [A&E] to have chosen it. the bottom line is god is responsible for creating the opportunity for sin to take place, choices to be made, a fall from grace to occur. with out creation this would not be so. end of story. so who is to blame - GODDDDDD!!! no creation, no sin!! he doesn't have to be "responsible for my or others actions" the point is again no creation no sin!! and as to "possability" of sin occuring this is not true by what i read of your god, he knew for a fact that man would sin,fall,diobey,be temted, etc. were not talking ""possability"" were talking a definite fact! you'd better read this ""entire post"" before going further all this has already been discussed here between me and eljay and deb and - morning song[off line] It's not a discussion if the only acceptable opinion is your own. What you meant is "rant". Correct your OP, so that it reflects your actual goals for the thread and you won't get annoy people like me trying to give the Christian perspective on Christianity. |
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what part of if god had not created anything do you not understand spidey??? idont care about things after the fact my OP was is god responsible? No, God isn't responsible for your actions or anyone else's, for that matter. God allowed for the possibility of sin, so that mankind could have free will. well evidentally yu have just joined in on the discussion and not read the entire post. my stance again is this - if god created everything [brought it into existance], then he is reponsible for everything that takes place - you are taking it to mean something after the fact, talking of choice and free will, not what the OP intended - god your god - created everything and in doing so brought about the capability of sin to enter into the creation, sweet and simple, without creation sin would not exist for us [A&E] to have chosen it. the bottom line is god is responsible for creating the opportunity for sin to take place, choices to be made, a fall from grace to occur. with out creation this would not be so. end of story. so who is to blame - GODDDDDD!!! no creation, no sin!! he doesn't have to be "responsible for my or others actions" the point is again no creation no sin!! and as to "possability" of sin occuring this is not true by what i read of your god, he knew for a fact that man would sin,fall,diobey,be temted, etc. were not talking ""possability"" were talking a definite fact! you'd better read this ""entire post"" before going further all this has already been discussed here between me and eljay and deb and - morning song[off line] It's not a discussion if the only acceptable opinion is your own. What you meant is "rant". Correct your OP, so that it reflects your actual goals for the thread and you won't get annoy people like me trying to give the Christian perspective on Christianity. thev post is my opinion spidey, the discussion has went on for days now, eljay and deb have given ther's as well as others at the beginning, the christian perspective has been welcome it helps define my opinion so that it cannot be taken as other than what i've stated in the beginning pages, if you want to add to it then back up and see the discussions that went before you coming into it now, then you are more than welcome to add yours otherwise your statements so far are of no added value since you donot fully comprehend my or the others conversations so far, im not telling you to go to some other post as i did tthe last time all the info is right here in front of your nose - read it - then reply if you s choose to do so. |
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It's just beating a dead horse....imo Then why not give up?   
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On further reflection, I wonder what your point is. All things which are possible and exist are because of God. If God hadn't created you, would wouldn't have been able to post your rant. If God hadn't created me, I wouldn't have read it and mistaken it for a discussion. If God hadn't allowed for electricity, we wouldn't be able to post online messages. Etc, etc, etc.
the bottom line is god is responsible for creating the opportunity for sin to take place, choices to be made, a fall from grace to occur. with out creation this would not be so. end of story. That's not true. God could have created the universe to only have animals. Then creation would exist without sin. But what God decided is that he wanted to do more for us and he expected more from us, therefore we have free-will. I think the problem is that you are so obsessed with disproving Christianity that you can't take a breath and realize your arguments are pointless. EVERYTHING depends upon God to exist, both good and bad. God created all good things and allowed his creations to choose to make good or bad actions. |
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what part of if god had not created anything do you not understand spidey??? idont care about things after the fact my OP was is god responsible? No, God isn't responsible for your actions or anyone else's, for that matter. God allowed for the possibility of sin, so that mankind could have free will. well evidentally yu have just joined in on the discussion and not read the entire post. my stance again is this - if god created everything [brought it into existance], then he is reponsible for everything that takes place - you are taking it to mean something after the fact, talking of choice and free will, not what the OP intended - god your god - created everything and in doing so brought about the capability of sin to enter into the creation, sweet and simple, without creation sin would not exist for us [A&E] to have chosen it. the bottom line is god is responsible for creating the opportunity for sin to take place, choices to be made, a fall from grace to occur. with out creation this would not be so. end of story. so who is to blame - GODDDDDD!!! no creation, no sin!! he doesn't have to be "responsible for my or others actions" the point is again no creation no sin!! and as to "possability" of sin occuring this is not true by what i read of your god, he knew for a fact that man would sin,fall,diobey,be temted, etc. were not talking ""possability"" were talking a definite fact! you'd better read this ""entire post"" before going further all this has already been discussed here between me and eljay and deb and - morning song[off line] It's not a discussion if the only acceptable opinion is your own. What you meant is "rant". Correct your OP, so that it reflects your actual goals for the thread and you won't get annoy people like me trying to give the Christian perspective on Christianity. thev post is my opinion spidey, the discussion has went on for days now, eljay and deb have given ther's as well as others at the beginning, the christian perspective has been welcome it helps define my opinion so that it cannot be taken as other than what i've stated in the beginning pages, if you want to add to it then back up and see the discussions that went before you coming into it now, then you are more than welcome to add yours otherwise your statements so far are of no added value since you donot fully comprehend my or the others conversations so far, im not telling you to go to some other post as i did tthe last time all the info is right here in front of your nose - read it - then reply if you s choose to do so. I choose to not read it and reply anyways. I'm too busy to read 16 pages. I read your post and replied and I have replied to all replies to my post, sorry but that's all you are getting out of me. Ignore my posts if you want, but I'll keep posting if I want to or I'll quit posting if I want to. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 10/20/08 02:10 PM
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Spider god did nearly almost create the earth for the sole habitation of animals. At least in the 2nd version of Genesis, Eve sounds as if she was produced as an afterthought. And then only created so that Adam would not be lonely and since none of the animals got him going. Hrmm.
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No sin has occured...
How could it be sin. Unless you read only a small sour book. God did not create us for sin but for glory... Which path you take is your choice. I have no problem with you chosing to walk the path of sin with all of its fears, contradictions and final battles/destruction. that will leave more room on my less traveled way. I am walking with purpose for glory. I like living without guilt. |
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No sin has occured... How could it be sin. Unless you read only a small sour book. God did not create us for sin but for glory... Which path you take is your choice. I have no problem with you chosing to walk the path of sin with all of its fears, contradictions and final battles/destruction. that will leave more room on my less traveled way. I am walking with purpose for glory. I like living without guilt. Do you believe some actions are evil? Regardless of your belief system, are there certain actions which are always evil? |
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