No. I'm a pantheist.

But I didn't turn to pantheism as a 'religion'. Instead I simply came to the realization that pantheism best describes the true nature of God.

I never doubted God's existence even when I realized that the biblical picture was incorrect. I've always known that God exists because he lives within me. The Bible is simply an incorrect picture of God is all. God isn’t like that.

Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous again, but I gather that you lean more towards naturalistic pantheism?

Well, words are just labels that can often be confusing. Differnet people, assign them differnet meanings.

I do lean toward what I think of as ‘naturalistic pantheism’, meaning that I believe that the true nature of the world is spiritual. This is opposed to ‘scientific pantheism’ in which people just revere the universe itself but are basically atheists and don’t give the universe any spiritual quality. They believe that they will just die when they die.

I believe that our true nature is spiritual. There was never a time when I was not, and there will never be a time when I will cease to exist. I didn’t come into being when my body was born, and I won’t cease to exist when my body dies.

I believe in reincarnation, and certainly not restricted to just coming ‘back’ to earth for another go at it. I believe that reincarnation can take many forms that may actually include experiences outside any that we can even imagine in our human form.

While I can’t prove that this scenario is true, I can’t find any reason to disprove it either. I can also point to a lot of reasons why I am personally compelled to believe that it is more likely than not.

It would seem scientific observation places a date on the universe. I understand creation may be problematic for you, especially in light of theism, but how do you explain the cosmos?

With all due respect sir, I said that the biblical picture of God cannot possibly be true.

I never said that I have an explanation for the cosmos.

These are two entirely different things.

The Bible doesn’t give an explanation for God either. It just states that his spirit moved on the face of the deep. I grant that the universe is spiritual in nature too. But that doesn’t automatically make the entire biblical story correct. Far from it. All religions begin with a God in some form or another.

I’m not an atheist. It’s probably actually incorrect to say that I’m a ‘pantheist’. That implies that pantheism is a religion and I’m a believer of that religion. I don’t think of pantheism as a religion. If there are organized religions out there that claim to be ‘pantheism’ I doubt that I’ll agree with all their views. I use the term generically to simply mean that I believe everything is spirit, and that all spirit is one. Although, even the very concept of oneness is a human concept. Maybe it’s better to just say that all is connected inseparably?

I don’t claim to know the details of how reality works. I only claim that the biblical picture of God can’t possibly be true. Mainly because it makes claims that the universe doesn’t agree with. If I have to choose between a book that was written by men, or a universe that was written by God, I choose to believe the universe.

May I offer the same respect in turn.

The biblical picture of God can be difficult to comprehend, I agree with you. I refrain from saying that I don't believe it all, instead, I simply don't understand it all.

It sounds like you have a little sprinkle of classical pantheism, but that could be remnants of your theistic background. It would also seem that you don't have it fully defined just yet, and that's fine too. Much to learn in this universe of ours.

Is it possible, that many people struggle with theism because it constitutes an interaction with a higher power, a relationship, that sometimes cannot be felt or experienced enough to meet ones expectations? Isn't it easy for this relationship to be disappointed at times, even abandoned? Our spiritual existence also encompasses our emotional one. Let's not discount that they interact with each other.

I am not going to attack you for your faith. There's no reason to do that. I think I'm a fairly intelligent person, as are you. Pantheism leaves a lot of unanswered questions for me, as does theism for you. However, since we are both a part of this spiritual existence, wouldn't it be prudent of us to gain insight from each other instead of tearing each other down?

Kind regards

We'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I mean no offense toward you. I respect your personal beliefs; however, I want you to know why I don't find your arguments convincing.

First off, I fail to see how the situation is analogous to child rearing or "trying to pound" anything into anyone as if that's something desirable or even necessary. Here are the major issues I have:

Why is God defined as an impersonal diety and then a personal diety as the situation suits the Christian? It seems like a bunch of equivocation and ad hoc arguments to me for one to claim that in this instance God is a type of father figure ready to dish out disciplinary action however he sees fit, but then in these other cases God is the "unmoved mover", the "uncaused cause", the "unknowable knowable", the "unplanned planner", "omni this and omni that", etc. It seems that if one claims that God exists one must clearly and sufficiently define it to someone who is without previous understanding of what attributes constitute this particular diety. Is he personal (A) or impersonal (not A)? Logic dictates something can't be both A and not A.

Further, to answer you question, IMO I think this diety would be a petty, vindictive, sadistic, unloving father not a just or loving one. Ultimately, to this father, a 12 y/o who shoplifts a pack of gum and a dictator whose responsible for 12 million deaths is deserving of the same punishment if they lack a belief in Jesus. That has no semblance of justice or love since justice implies a sense of fairness and reason, and love a sense of caring, forgiveness and affection.

Moreover, why is there an infinite amount of punishment, i.e. hell for so called sins committed over a finite period of time, i.e. a human life span? Again, how is that justice or love?

Finally, if hell is punishment, then where's the instruction? By definition, punishment implies a penalty with an instructive purpose to it. How does eternal damnation accomplish this purpose?



According to scripture, won't God do whatever you ask in Jesus' name? I think that appears in all four canonical gospels. Since you asked, then shouldn't nonbelievers be forgiven? Why not take the next step and ask God to extinguish the flames of hell and let us into heaven, too?



Matters of preference. No argument here.



I meant "pay" as reparations for crimes committed against others. I think that's the main role of our judicial system, and why legislators enact laws to protect and punish citizens that choose to harm others. I'm not sure where your argument was going. Please clarify.



I can't rationally argue against your claims because I don't presume God(s) exist nor do I presume people have been telling God(s) to leave. I'll step down from that one with respect.

This is absolutely true. I don’t even try to understand it ‘fully’. I’m convinced that it is impossible to fully understand our spiritual nature whilst in the human form. Although, I don’t even hold that as a ‘truth’ in general. But I have a feeling that it will at least be true for me. Especially since I’m not seeking to fully understand my spiritual essences (i.e. I’m not dedicated to spiritual enlightenment).

For me, there are several reasons for his. One is that I simply don’t see it as being a necessary goal. I believe that I’ll realize my true nature soon enough, when I die. I also believe that it isn’t the purpose of life to focus on our spiritual essence. If we were interested in focusing on our spiritual essence we’d just stay in our spiritual state all the time. I think that ‘incarnation’ into physical world or ‘illusions’ are what we do as spirits. An incarnation is to a spirit, like going to a movie is to a human (except in the case of a spiritual incarnation we actually become one of the characters in the movie). So the physical life is where we belong when we are incarnated and this is what we should focus on, not on going back to being spirit again.

Many religions, including Christianity, speak of the physical world as being unimportant, or certainly less important than our spiritual essence. Well, it may be less important, but it’s certainly not unimportant, nor do I see the physical world as being inherently ‘evil’ (i.e. sins of the flesh). I think it’s absurd not to enjoy the physical world. Why bother to create one if the only reason is to reject it? Just as a test? Seems a bit trivial to me.

I love the physical world, and I won’t pretend that I don’t. And most of the things I love about it are not sinful or evil in any way, (such as my love of growing flowers or landscaping the earth to be in harmony with it’s natural indigenous foliage). Loving the physical world is not a sin in my mind. I have a great appreciation for all of the natural world, including many manmade objects. I love my ‘toys’.

I’m not a religious man. I’m spiritual only in the sense that I recognize that I’m spiritual, not in any sense that I make that realization the focal point of my life. Far from it. As I just stated, I think we are here for the movie, let’s make the most of it, we’ll be spirit again soon enough!



I have no expectation from any higher power. I can only believe that if a singular higher power exists (a single godhead) it must surly be nicer and more reasonable than me. That leaves me in pretty good hands. I’m more inclined to believe that the spiritual world consists of a multitude of spirits just as humanity consists of a multitude of humans, and that those spirits are ultimately connected. I don’t think they judge at all in the way that humans do. It’s just not even necessary. They just don’t think in terms of ego like we do. There’s nothing to judge because we are all one. This is how I believe things are. It would only make sense to judge if beings were truly separate.



It’s not my intent to attack yours either. When I state that the Bible can’t possibly be true, I’m just telling you what I believe to be the case. I’m not suggesting that you need to buy into that belief yourself.



Yes Pantheism doesn’t have all the answers. But for, me it, at least it makes sense in the answers that it does provide.

Theism based on the Bible raises many more questions than answers, for me. And in all honestly I see it as a very negative theology. Why? Because it puts blame on man for choosing to be sinful, and claims that he is indeed inherently sinful, it also suggests that no man is without sin, all have fallen short of the glory of God. That’s just not a positive picture at all, it’s quite negative.

Many people say, well too bad you don’t like that picture because that’s just the way things are!

Well, what makes them so sure? The world was dog-eat-dog long before man came on the scene. Why should I believe that man is responsible for an imperfect world? If God created such a perfect world why did he created animals that naturally eat each other? This was clearly done long before man ever came onto the scene according the universe itself. This is the nature of nature! It’s not man’s doing!

Now you might say, “Well what about the God of pantheism? Wouldn’t it also be responsible for this dog-eat-dog world?”

Yes, it would. But there are major differences here. The God of pantheism never said that man is responsible for this or that he is inherently sinful, or that every man is a sinner and has fallen short of the glory of God. In other words, the God of pantheism isn’t pointing fingers! Nor does the God of pantheism threaten to judge people or cast them into hell.

The idea behind pantheism is that we go back into spirit when we die and can be incarnated again in a new life. Most religions that hold a pantheistic view talk about a ‘karma’ that we carry with us from life to life. It’s like the wake of a boat. If we make waves in this life, we’ll need to ride those same waves out in the next life. If we don’t make waves, then we’ll have clear sailing in the next life. It’s a form of ‘judgment’ that is of our own making. We reap what we sow.

I might add here always, that there are many things (especially popular phrases and clichés) in the Bible that do ring true. When I say that the overall story of the Bible can’t be true, I don’t mean to imply that it doesn’t contain a valid word. I actually agree with just about everything that Jesus taught from a moral point of view. I would even argue that Jesus had nothing to say that hadn’t already been said before in countless other religions, and even by non-religious philosophers. A lot of it is just plain common sense.

But that doesn’t make the whole book true verbatim. I don’t believe that mankind is inherently evil. Just look around, but look with a clear lens (not through the boob tube). Violent crimes are committed by less than 2% of the humans on earth. All crimes, serious illnesses and, soldiers that are active in war zone take together represent less than 10% of the population on earth. In short, about 90% of humanity is just your average Joe trying to get along with his neighbors. Is that a species of ‘inherently evil’ creatures?

I think that’s a pretty good record myself!

Especially considering that 33% of the angles fell from grace in heaven. According to those statistics earth is nicer place than heaven percentage wise.

I just don’t see mankind as being inherently sinful.

Moreover, most of the real problems in the world today are caused by our industrialized throw-away lifestyle and waste. Most of the things that are really causing us problems are being done everyday by people who consider themselves to be perfectly upstanding Christians! They don’t even realize that their everyday lifestyle is what’s causing the problems. They aren’t living this way to rebel against God. They don’t even view it as being rebellious against God. They’re just going with the flow of society in general.

The bottom line in all of this is that I don’t even see Christianity as being a useful religion even if it was true! It just doesn’t invoke an appreciation for the natural world. On the contrary it actually preaches that we shouldn’t give the physical world much value. Sin’s of the flesh and all that.

From my point of view the only thing the religion has to offer is a way to save individual butts from being burned to a crisp. Seems like a pretty petty basis for a religion to me.

I don’t mean this as an attack against your faith. I’m just telling you how I view it.

Jesus taught good things about how we should treat each other, but he never mentioned a word about how important it is to live in harmony with the natural world. It simply wasn’t an important issue in the time in which he lived. But today it is an important issue.

Christianity, in a very real sense, actually breeds a mindset that the physical world is of little or no importance. Even Jesus taught not to put our value in physical things. But that was in a time when living in harmony with nature was not important. Today it is important. And Christianity (as a religion) just totally misses the boat on this issue.

At least pantheism is saying, “Hey! Planet earth is our Mother! All animals are our brothers and sister too! We must respect everyone and everything not just look to have our own butts saved from a fiery furnace in the afterlife!”

When the pantheistic view is truly understood in this scope and not just seen as a ‘personal religion’ it can be very enlightening and positive for all of humanity and all other living species on this planet as well.

Ok, here’s the soap box. Your turn.

There is a book called Modern Science and Christian Faith. It tells where science seems to point to a God, as an intelligent designer. It makes it hard to refute. It is written by scientist. Even now....science is leaning closer and closer to there being a God.

I cannot tell you why there is a God...I only know there is a reason for me to believe that someone or something clearly molded this earth and universe to fit humanity and all life.

The more I learn about the earth and all it's wonder and all the outer realm of our planet...the more I believe. It all comes together if one truly searches with an open mind.

My faith that there is a God is reasonable. I invest my trust in God as truth. Irregardless of the evidence, which I also support.

Kat

I was not passing judgement, I could care less if someone believes or not, it is only my opinion, if someone doesn't believe that is their right and privilage, but being christian does not mean you are a second class citizen and should have to accept people taking shots at your faith

At least funches has a good question so this isn't for him but as for some of the other comments, I must apologize for even commenting, I forgot a most important scripture, Do not cast your pearls before swine

No matter what answer we give to this man remember that he will accept no answer but his own...
You can never please a fool such as him because no matter if he saw God for himself he still will never Believe his own eyes, even if he heard God with his own ears he will not believe his own ears, even if God did everything this man asked he will never believe in any way at any time because of the fact that he has already made his mind up and has chosen what he want's to believe, and they call US narrow minded.

find a non religous biased source and make the same claim. most true scientist would not attribute our being here to an almighty being, but to random chance and damn good luck



brainwashed, that's a more fitting word

It's not my intent to convince you of anything. I'm not proselytizing here.



It's analogous in that we can get pretty thick headed sometimes. My analogy assumed you have raised children through their teenage years. If you haven't, then this analogy won't make sense to you. If you have, then you have my condolences. A father loves his children whether they do right or wrong. A father gets disappointed when his children make mistakes and even moreso when they make mistakes even though they've been taught otherwise. A father can only instruct, and then stand back and hope. He doesn't stop loving and he can't stop his children from erring.



No. This is taken out of context. When I invite you to my house, and yes you are welcome to come over anytime, I'll tell you to make yourself at home. This doesn't give you the authority to rearrange my living room or paint my walls. I didn't say you couldn't do these things, but you know. There's a lot more to scripture than taking a sentence or two out and trying to make it work in your life. A lot of Christians do that and unfortunately for them, it only becomes a frustration when what they ask doesn't play out in their lives. Unfortunately for you, you get to see this confusion and it only adds to your own.

You have a lot of valid questions. Time doesn't permit me to answer them all. We have a book called the bible. We believe it is God's instruction to man, written by man but "inspired" by God. I certainly wouldn't want to be elected to try to dictate all of God to mankind in writing, would you?! I'm a man and I am falible. The bible was written by man, let's not forget that. Because we don't understand or comprehend what was written thousands of years ago by a culture and a people much different than us, or believe everything this bood says, doesn't negate the existence of God. Whether a person has a full and complete understanding of God, or even no understanding of Him at all, the bible it's full of wisdom. Anyone can gain from it.

I concur.



I concur



I concur and will even be brave enough to admit that some things in this physical world that I love, are sinful! (gasp)



I concur.



I concur with what you have said here, however I also believe in the single godhead.



I concur. I feel the same way about Christianity, not the Christianity you see on TV though. Let's be careful not to stereotype Christians. There is an apostacy happening in this age. There seems to always be apostacy's, yeah? Movements, heresy's, cults...

The predominant display of what is coined "Christian" is found when you channel surf. Benny Hinn, Creflo, TBN, the list is too exhaustive. There is a tremendous amount of heresy that has invaded the church. The "Prosperity Gospel", "The Apostolic Reform", "Dominionism", "The Prophetic Movement", once again, too exhaustive. A lot of preachers are filthy rich. A lot of them have done some pretty blatant things that insult the integrity of Christianity. The point is, true Christianity should not be understood to mean what these sects or individuals are promoting. I understand completely why "non-believers" are upset. I am too, you have no idea!



Okay.



Reminder: Written by man, "inspired" by the Holy Spirit.



I concur, however to single out Christians is a bit reaching IMO. Everyone is guilty of this.



It's useful for me as an individual. Doesn't that equate to something that makes it useful in your mind? I mean, if it helps me in my life, why discount it as a whole?

Scroll through the thread again. I have seen him agree or be amazed by at least one person's opinion. Therefore, he obviously will accept an answer he agrees with; it may be very rare, but it does happen.

No, btw, it was not with me.

Religion is like underwear? You have to find what fits you best & give the other person the freedom to wear a thong or granny panties if they want to.

Toast; don't be so sure darlin. A lot of Scientist are now claiming a correlation. Finding mutual agreements which are God-like AND scientific. I would suggest researching and reading a little more.

I have done some reading sir.

I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else. I am simple and think for myself as do you.

You do not ask any questions that I haven't in my past. I was hard core agnostic for much of my years. Questioned everything.
Still do.....but have since been shown and given reason to believe. Not by a book, not by any certain person. Not church. Or any organized religion.

I was given a gift...and that gift has changed the who of me and the life path I now choose. I am a better person for it.

As long as it works for me...I will have nothing but good words for you. Not to say I don't get mad, cause I do. Just now....I do not hold onto it. It is gone almost as fast as it arrived. I will harbor no ill thoughts.

Kat

My ex couldn't believe I could be so stupid. Many times I can remember her saying, "I couldn't believe you could be so stupid." But I made a believer out of her.