I do think babies know everything in a way. My daughter is 10 months old and already knows how to share, today she offered me some of the apple she was eating. I think reinforcing the good things a child does is a lot more valuable than punishing. Some Native Americans used to simply ignore the child when he/she acted up.

that's interesting

I believe there are instincts that are known, but that sharing is learned and not already known

the gesture of reaching out to give to someone else is something that is seen and imitated,,

I believe more in the theory that children are blank slates when they are born,,, and know what they are shown and what they are taught,,

I agree. and there's no hard and fast rule about which approach to take. parenting requires having a multi faceted approach and different ideas of disciplinary action.
it really depends on the situation.
when my now 25 year old nephew was 4, he and my sister lived with us. one of his parents hung around with people of the gang environment. we were playing cards one day and he had drawn on himself things that were associated with this.
I asked him what he has on his knuckles. he said its symbol that means you're cool.
I told him it means please kick my azz. if you want an azz kicking I'll be happy to do it myself. made him go scrub it off. he'd used permanent marker. so it didn't come off. I gave him hand lotion to rub all on his knuckles then try to wash it off again. then scrub with a wash cloth. most if it came off. poor kid, his little knuckles were red from him scrubbing. on our way back we passed the kitchen and I told him next time I'll scrub it with this steel wool. my nephew may have done other dumb things growing up, but he himself told me he didn't join up on either side because he knew the one to kick his butt wouldn't be his rival.

as he grew older if course he tested limits. there were times when he would lose privileges. have extra chores. even get smacked.
once when he was 13 and especially mouthy I had told him knock off or I'll make you sorry. he said, what are you going to do? I'm bigger than you.
I said that won't stop me. keep it up and I'll make you eat dirt. we were out by the garden.
he pushed it more. our family used to watch a lot of wrestling. I dropped him face forward with a wrestling move and shoved his face in the dirt. I had my palm holding his back so he couldn't get up. he lifted his head and started spewing more obscenities. I shoved his face down again. he put his face up and I asked him are we done or do you want more. he said we're done.
did it leave any lasting damage? no. only that he needs to have respect.
it all depends on the situation.

Im sorry it came to that,, boys can really learn to puff their chest and I understand the need to deflate quickly before it gets out of hand,,

I had all brothers, so boy do I know,,,,,



yep,,it depends upon the situation,,

You don't really believe that they are blank?

I really do

besides the basic need for human interaction, they don't know anything but what we show and teach them,,,

in all of this, he knows he's loved.
it may sound like I'm so mean and harsh because we're only talking about disciplinary techniques.
yet even though I call my house the boring house, because of no satellite, no cartoon network, no high tech entertainment; the kids all love coming over and spending the day. there's love, laughter and being with each other. there's also work and everyone pitching in when there are things to do.
it's not uncommon for each kid to have their gardening tool and section of garden to get done. it gives a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.
or when we all bake sugar cookies. each one rolls out their own dough and decorates their share. each one goes home with a plateful of goodies to share.
in doing all of this they learn about rules and safety.

I thought Christians tend to believe that a baby exists even before it's born, because I do too. How can someone exist for so long and be blank? The sperm knows how to get to the egg, then it knows how to turn upside down when it's getting ready to be born, then it knows how to find the breast, I mean this ability to survive aren't things that are exactly taught. Give them some credit that they aren't just born blank.

Babies are a bit of a mystery for us, but they know everything believe me.

Men think women don't know anything without their expertise on everything, what about that? They honestly think we are not intelligent beings, most of them do.

So, let's not think that way about our babies, it is the exact same thing. Babies should know more than we do, because they haven't yet forgotten what we have and what we were all born knowing. We don't remember when we were born and what we knew, let's not assume they learn everything from us, no that giving ourselves way too much credit. And it dehumanizes them to be honest.

sounds as if you strike a good balance


our house ends up being that house the other kids want to be at too,,,

I feel bad for all the children now, before I felt bad for women, but at least we can protest..

Christians learn that God knew babies long before they are born, as their creator,,

however the baby itself cant know what it hasn't seen and nothing teaches us that God makes them all knowing just because he knows them

the design of God is for sperm to swim,, their odds of finding an egg are astronomical,, when we consider how many seek an egg,,,

again, more about Gods knowledge than the sperm 'knowing' anything,,,
a baby will suckle because its hungry as it is something LEARNED from the beginning of, that's how it fed in the womb,, that's survival that is in them,,

when I say born blank, I don't mean they have no instinct, but I consider 'knowledge' and instinct different categories,,

if one had a baby and just left it once it could speak and walk,, it would die pretty quickly, because it knows FAR from everything and we are here to teach it,,

its not dehumanizing, its equalizing because we all start out that way, ,,its making them human enough to continue learning, growing, and changing

its making them precious enough to need protection and nurturing

I think being born already fully capable would be inhuman and pointless

knowing everything would erase any need for human contact, any need to learn, any need for protection,,


the joy of life is in the journey of learning,, it would make little sense to be born with a lifetime ahead of us and nothing that we needed to learn,,

how can any person at any age already know that which it has had NO exposure to, either indirectly through education or directly through personal experience?

Obviously babies don't know how to do everything we know, but they are aware just as much as we are, and should not be punished for anything. Why can't parents find other ways to handle their children? It is only out of annoyance that parents do this.

So, what if you were an elderly caregiver and someone with dementia or whatever 'misbehaved', would they merit a 'punishment'? This is called elder abuse. And for a child, it is child abuse. I understand that you do love your children but it's still abuse whether you realize it or not.

you're going waaay and trying to draw people into a new and unrelated discussion.

getting back to the topic at hand,
the saddest thing I saw during my 18 years working with the parents and kids at our local school district was what permissive parenting caused their children.

for those parents who didn't set boundaries, who protected their kids from disciplinary action at school (not talking beating kids) the results were their children didn't learn how to adapt to the rules of society.
those children who didn't have consequences and/or expectations (some of my own relatives included) tended to be the ones who got in trouble. as they grew older their mistakes progressed because they weren't taught how to make positive choices. they weren't taught that there are consequences for your actions.

that is where the parents do the greatest disservice to their children and the children, not their parents, suffer from the consequences in their adult life.

I'm saying there is a way to encourage your child to learn many great things without being abusive. I think we just disagree about what is abuse, but I think if it's considered abuse to an elder or to a woman, it is also abuse to a child, sorry. That's my conclusion. I know it's popular, but not right.

punish is a word for a negative consequence

not every action has a positive consequence

human have what are called 'developmental stages'

and at different stages they learn different consequences

life 'punishes' us when we make bad choices,, in ways much harsher than a swat on the behind

when we get to a developmental stage to know right from wrong,, its important that we learn the lesson that consequences can be much more severe than someone just talking to us and trying to understand us,,,

someone with dementia is not 'aware' as you say,, so they aren't held accountable for poor choices the way those of us of sound mind are,,, so no, I would not punish anyone who was unaware in that way

there is no abuse here,,, its from a place of love that I teach them the easy and the hard parts of life,, so they may be better prepared,,,,

except its not that simplistic

children and adults are at different stages and so different things are acceptable and legal

children are expected to have discipline at home,, adults have left home and are disciplined by the system

it would be abuse to take a child and lock them in a cell although it isn't abuse for an adult

they are not the same


elders and woman can drive a car, but children can not

elders and woman have to pay their own way, children do not

elders and woman are accountable for their choices by authorities that will strip them of their job, or take away their freedom or even shoot them,,,,,,,,

adults and children are not the same ,, the way they learn and what impacts them is not the same

I found an excellent article against punishing children since I am not very good writer, but I firmly believe it is so wrong to hurt children. I also disagree with teaching children fairytales concerning men and women that are completely misleading and ruined my life, as well as teaching them religion or any other form of brainwashing that will ruin their souls and minds. Leave the children the hell alone! And next women's rights..

http://www.naturalchild.org/james_kimmel/punishment.html

I am a firm believer that not all children are the same and have parents for a reason.

its not so that they can just be brought in the world and raise themselves,,,,

they don't have the development or the understanding.

they need 'discipline' to understand that certain choices have REAL and unpleasant consequences

the same way I would never debate with someone that they felt hurt or were hurt,, it offends me for others to try to convince me that I was hurt and somehow too ignorant to know it even though I grew up in a happy and healthy home,,,,or that I abuse my children because I choose to discipline them with spanking


I also don't need another kook doctor (like Doctor Spock) throwing out some one size fits all assessment of how all children should or shouldn't be raised,,,


children are not ever going to be 'left alone',, they live in a world with other people,, so parents can either give them lessons and set examples and be the ones to teach them or let the amoral media and anything goes society do it for them


so we can discipline them with love or leave it later in life to some cop who may just beat the crap out of them or shoot them in fear and anger


we can 'brainwash' them with a moral structure that happens to be written in the bible

or we can let their 'brainwashing' happen through the social structure that tells them there is no right or wrong as long as it makes them happy and doesn't 'hurt' anyone

that sex is a mandate and preferences are not choices

that its ok to shoot first and ask questions later

and all sorts of other questionable values I don't wish my children being indoctrinated into,,,


parents should do anything BUT leave their kids alone


,,,that's my opinion,, having been raised in a home with four others and having raised two myself,,,

punishment: inflicting penalty for an offense
discipline: training for correction and maturity


I am grateful I was disciplined in love, so that I didn't go out in the world and end up punished out of vengeance, fearfulness, or ignorance,,,

I didn't mean alone alone, I meant stop hurting them. They would protest if they could. Only I can speak up for them otherwise I would mind my own business. Anyway, I will just raise my daughter with the respect she deserves, that is all I can do now. I feel bad for the children who have to put up with all the crap the parent wants the child to do or be, as if you are the master and your child is your slave..really. I feel bad. They can't explain what's wrong until they grow up and need to see a counselor. Parents get away with abuse, worse than men abuse women..you don't realize that and you are a woman, you should know what's going on. Nevermind. Keep teaching your children about man made religion and punishing them for being what children are meant to be!

these are a lot of assumptions being made

I was part of the guardian ad litem program so I do know the actual ABUSE that happens to kids and I agree people should advocate for children where THAT is concerned

I also have a degree in education so I know a bit about how kids develop

I am also one of FOUR children raised by amazing parents

I also have successfully raised one child and in the process of raising another

they both would probably be utterly amazed that anyone was trying to imply I hadn't been a good parent or that I was 'abusive' in any way

but I believe people lump everything together when they try to scapegoat spanking in and of itself under the umbrella of 'abuse'

if one is from an unbalanced home which included spanking, it will have negative impact

but the other option, the one I Know of, experienced, propogate is this one:

parents SUPPORT positive behavior, encourage it, teach it through example and make a big deal of it

parents set aside time to LISTEN to their kids, about their concerns, and way to work together to resolve them, and do developmentally appropriate activities

parents set time to TALK to their kids about behavior and consequence as well as setting BOUNDARIES and DISCIPLINE for when boundaries are stepped over

parents DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO, whether it is regarding a promise to go to a park, or a promise that a certain consequence will follow certain misbehaviors


SUPPORT< LISTEN< TALK< and be DEPENDABLE,, that is balance

in a home where there is primarily discipline and no one listens to the kids or talks to them, children will grow up with emptiness

in a balanced home where kids are PART of the decisions and have CHOICES ( as discipline provides, a CHOICE to risk the discipline that has already been explained and discussed), children will grow into prepared adults with a strong respect and concern for others and accountability for themselves


children are not all knowing, nor are they STUPID, at some point they cant be excused as just being kids when they know right from wrong and choose wrong anyway,, consequences should follow to prepare them for REAL life,,, where they most certainly will follow once they are grown and held self accountable

I will keep teaching my kids the morals I want to impress upon them instead of leaving it to the world to do it

and none of that includes me punishing them for being children

only TRAINING them to become adults who are prepared for the world,,,

I will not tell you how to raise your kids,, humans learn through trial and error and you will find what works for yours just as my parents did with theirs and I have done with mine


in spite of what feels like an attack on how I have been raised or how I raise my kids, let alone an assumption that I am too ignorant to be aware of women's issues or child abuse

I do hope you the best with your child, there is no book that's gonna give all the answers