that's good, my parents weren't 'unfit' and didn't put me in harms way and always had my best interest at heart,,,as do I

you don't only give kids what they 'want',,,,thats how 'unfit' parents function

you are a weak parent if that's the argument against discipline

everyone at every age has very rational survival instincts that include 'fear',

I hurt myself worse playing than I ever did with a whack on the behnd,, its a risk of playing, it was also a risk of breaking cerain rules,,,

You don't seem to get it at all. Agreeing to disagree here. Not forfeiting just the topic has run its course. We both sound like boomerangs. Your current straw man argument has thrown this topic into a wastrel discussion pile that needs to decompose already.

Do the kids every get to spank the parents for making mistakes or do parents never make mistakes, do parents ever need to be corrected by the child, does a child ever know better than the parent? When a child makes a mistake it's always the child's fault so the parents spank them and punish them, but the same parent cannot make a mistake because they are adults. lol

the thread passed away, time of death Sat 03/28/15 05:44 AM.

It lived long (longer then it should have)and spread happiness (and the finger) throughout its life.

may it rest in peace.

I'm keeping it alive for all the kids out there. They need our support.

no, thats not how it works. Do you ever fire your boss, does a citizen arrest a cop

there is AUTHORITY all through life, that is earned through time and responsibility

when KIDS become adults and have earned it, they will have rsponsibility and authority over others themselves and in the homes THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE for with the kids THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR,, they can choose whatever discipline works to teach rules and choices and consequences

no, children dont ever know BETTER than parents, how can they knwo more in their short years than someone who has lived three times longer or more,,, they can sometimes have more recent knowledge of book knowledge and social norms,, but thats about all

and noone said everytime they make a 'mistake' they are spanked or punished this is more of the projection abused people place on the non abused,,,,


mistakes and accidents are quit different from INTENTIONAL WRONGS,,,


and when adults make INTENTIONAL WRONGS, they have authorities who hold them accountable too,,,

lol

You contradict yourself. You say that when kids grow up they will have responsibility for themselves, yet they are perfectly capable of intentionally doing wrong before that. I think you need to go check your logic. And you like to tell people, 'you can't have it both ways'.

If these kids do intentional wrongs as you say, they must be developing their own autonomy, does it threaten you or something? You only think you control your kids, no you don't, so stop feeling threatened. If you keep telling yourself that you're in control, when the kids aren't buying it obviously, you're in denial. They're just scared of you, they don't care what you think (you're in their way when they're trying to develop, so again I say leave them alone they shouldn't be your carbon copies).

The only thing your bible really says about this is 'live and let live', so as long as kids/adults are following that, then no one should be spanking anyone. The only time it's warranted to use violence is in self defense, or protecting another. Never use it on the weak. Don't be a coward and don't hide behind false reasoning.

Yes. Having raised two,,,both statements are true

'children' can intentionally do wrong
'adults' are responsible for themselves

when people make intentional wrong, they are held accountable, adults and children TOO

and both children and adults have an AUTHORITY that holds them accountable (notice the TOO , which implies similarity and not contradiction?)

,,because children will one day be come adults who are held responsible (by law) for themselves,, the 'authorities' which hold adults responsible come into play

before the law holds them responsible,, when it still holds their parents responsbile for their chidlrens choices,, it is the parents job to hold the child responsible, and teach them to hold themselves responsible in PREPERATION for adulthood,


there is no contradiction there , just the flow of life and development


I dont feel threatened by my children, they are very 'autonomous',,lol

if there wasnt this obsession with blanket judgment of spanking, it may have been noticed that i regularly TALK with my kids,, they are free to speak their minnds EVERY day,, so there is no fear , but desire for them to gradtually become self sufficient adults, but understanding the world wont revolve around everything they want and dont want but that it has rules and consequences for breaking rules


ur funny, all that you assume just because I said I used spanking,,,

my kids are not carbon copies either, both very unique in their own ways

my kids arent scared of me, they respect that with the responsibility and sacrifice I have as an adult that I am i 'charge' over what I am responsible for,,,and who

my kids also know that they are loved and therefore trust that I dont abuse that authority and instead use it out of love

I dont know what my 'bible' has to do with it and nowhere in it does it say 'live and let live',,there would kind of be no point to setting standards or teaching values if that were the case

its perfectly fine to use FORCE when protecting those you love from immediate or future dangers,,,

like somene said,,,if the choice is a minor discomfort now, to keep them from a beating or shooting or loss of freedom later,, thats the perfect reason to choose the discomfort now as a lesson and a deterrent,,,

notice most kids dont 'want' or 'like' shots,, its someone sticking a needle in you, and it hurts,, but the purpose gives it a totally different acceptability and meaning, and it doesnt teach kids to go around sticking others with needles either..lol

Those who understand the mechanisms of the abusive partner in a domestic relationship know that this thread is being perpetuated by an abuser who seeks to justify their abusive behavior by minimizing the actions they take against a person with whom they have power and control over.

It does not matter whether they are legally permitted by law to commit an act of abuse. The law has continually been shown to be prejudiced against those who lack the power to control their own lives.

It was not long ago that one man was able to own another man as his personal property.

It was not long ago that a woman was the property of her husband.

It was not long ago that a person could not vote unless they owned property.

It was not long ago that a woman could not vote.

It was not long ago that separate was considered equal.

It was not long ago that a woman could not protect herself or her children from being abused by her husband or partner.

It was not long ago that a man had no right to marry another man.

The laws will evolve as man evolves.

there are already laws against ABUSE

abuse: use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse.


as adults can determine their own fate and have DEVELOPED to be held accountable , they have no right to 'own' any other man

people still have conditions on voting,, like citizenship, age,, etc,,, very few things are absolute and without condition

all the comparisons to what the rules are between adults makes it no less silly to insist that ALL and ANY spanking is abusive,,,

children are not the same as adults, there are many differences between what is expected and mandated of adults compared to children, like driving and working and paying the bills for instance, perhaps children who are slow to begine with learn its ok to do whatever their parents do,,, but I sure didnt(thank goodness for that)



and should we, in insisting on this 'equal treatement' start having parents carrying tasers and billy clubs and building kiddy jails for when they break rules,,?



for those interested in more about ACTUAL Child ABuse:
child abuse can broadly be defined as an act—or failure to act—that results in a child's serious harm or risk of harm, including physical or emotional harm, exploitation or death.

(SERIOUS HARM,,,doesnt occur from a few swats on the behind,, by the way)


read more: http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org/learn/child-abuse-and-neglect?gclid=CIua2qnxzcQCFZSCaQodRokAzw

There is a flaw in your argument. If a child is not responsible (because a child is not like an adult) for being spanked, then it is the parent who is abusing the child.

If a child is not accountable for him/her self, the parent is accountable for hitting him/her, that's abuse.

If the child is accountable for him/her self, but can't defend against an adult, the parent is accountable for hitting him/her, that's abuse.

Spanking a child no matter how you do it is wrong, they can't defend themselves. It is only when the child is capable of defending him/her self against the parent, that parent will adjust his/her behavior accordingly. That is too late, the parents need the laws need to be there to enforce on them that hitting a child is never ok. For people who don't follow ethics, we need to have laws. Sometimes that's the only thing adults like you were taught to respect from a young age. The laws need to be more clear to explain to you what is not ok for a parent to do to a child. It should be obvious, but if you were taught wrong from an early age it's not.

no, your logic is flawed

I said a child is not held responsible by the LAW (justice system, government)

their LAW is their parent, who teaches them about responsbility by teaching them the consequences of choosing to ignore or disrespect the law and their RESPONSIBILITY and POWER in making such a choice


EVERYONE is accountable, just to different people at different times

as I Said, ABUSE has the intention of harming
no harm came to me from being swatted on my behind,, not matter how one wishes to lump it in with hitting, violence or other legitimate abusive behavior,,

its when a parent UNDERSTANDS developmental stages and THEIR CHILD that they adjust the learning process accordingly, as well as the discipline,,,

paddling a child on the behind is as ok as sticking a needle in them to give them medicine, or snatching their arm to prevent them being hit by a car

noone can tell me what is ok with MY CHILD, when my child knows they are loved and none can tell me what wasnt ok for MY parents when I know I was loved

where is the real abuse? the paddling that taught boundaries, in a loving and supportive home

or the verbal badgering of strangers who wish to try to convince others they were abused?

http://wgntv.com/2015/03/30/alabama-mom-issues-public-apology-on-facebook-for-her-kids-behavior-at-movies/


if you don't teach your kids how to act in public, when it affects the public, members of that public will speak up

I don't believe violence teaches kids how to behave, if anything it teaches them how to misbehave. I will definitely teach my child many things including how to behave properly and how to forgive herself for mistakes not punish herself. Nobody is perfect. Nobody deserves to feel bad about themselves especially not children.

people do deserve to feel 'bad' about bad decisions

mistakes and intentional misdeeds are different things,,,

and even mistakes have consequences,,if I accidentally touch the hot stove, it doesn't care the reason, the CONSEQUENCE is the discomfort of the burn that implants in my mind the association between touching the stove and the undesirable outcome

an association that will 'teach' me not to make that choice again,, unless I want to choose the consequence it brings,,

and a lesson, that will prevent serious damage that I would otherwise never be aware of without the discomfort that deterred me,,,

Welcome to America. Hit now, parent never.

lol

newsflash,, not spanking doesn't automatically equate to parenting and likewise,, spanking doesn't equate to NOT parenting

parenting is complex and unique to each child parent relationship,,,and involves layers of which discipline is but one

if one is only disciplining,, whatever that disciplining is, ,they are not parenting

but if one is using discipline in BALANCE with all the other elements,, they are parenting just fine

the same can be said of ANY element of parenting,, if one only coddles/supports whatever children want,, with no balance of discipline or guidance or expectations,, they are not parenting

but if one shows support in BALANCE with the other things children need,, brava to them