I dont know, IM not God, IM a mere human

I do know that we sometimes ask of people to help themself FIRST, or we are just making them dependent

I dont imagine that this would be unreasonable for a God to require either,, not just handing out salvation out of 'love', but asking that people SEEK it through faith and works,,,

But then you'd have a God that's supposedly loving everyone unconditionally, placing conditions on how to get it. That simply does not work, it's a total contradiction. It cannot work both ways, either God loves unconditionally, meaning no conditions on giving love no matter what happens, or it doesn't.

And you never really responded to the point I was trying to make either. IF one way was the ONLY path to God, such as Christians claim their way is, why WOULDN'T everyone see this truth in their near death experiences?

If you were God, and you wanted your people to know something of it, something that you knew they couldn't do without and their eternal soul rested on knowing it, would you not pull out all the stops to ensure that they did? What better place would there be but to tell them in the near death state of consciousness?

Fact is, everyone has a different experience when it comes to the afterlife, no one is the same as another depending on what they believe. That alone tells me that there cannot be just one path, because if there were all the experiences would be the same pointing that out, and they aren't and don't.

There are no "restrictions" on God's love. God loves eeeveryone. Weather they believe in him or not, weather they are tall or short, God loves everyone.

Death is a punishment put on us from the fall of the Garden of Eden. Jesus offers eternal life if one wishes to pick it up. Just because one doesn't accept this gift doesn't mean God hates them, means just that, this person decided to let the offer go by.

the point you made seems like false logic to me, which is why I Didnt respond

the assumption that everyone must have the same near death experience to prove there is only one path does not represent anything I posted, there being only one way is one extreme, all ways being the way is the other

I dont believe EITHER to be true, I Think there is one destination which is Gods, there are several roads , collectively, that can all lead there,, but all roads wont lead there anymore than only one road will,,,

IF all paths lead to God, we would already be in paradise and there would be no purpose to our mortality,,,,

Unless that purpose for being here is entirely different than you have been told. Like what if........evil existed not because we are bad, not because we fell from grace or anything of the sort, but because God wanted it to exist? What if it too had a purpose? What if everything and everyone did?

Earlier, we spoke of God's justice. I may create a thread on the subject eventually, but since we're going that way I will mention it here now. IF it all has a purpose, and God knowingly allows for evil to exist for said purpose, then it would NOT be just to punish a person for being that way, because in order for evil to exist there must with it exist the person or persons that are doing it. If there's no one to do it or no one who will, then it cannot be. Someone has to play the role.

Now obviously it doesn't mean we should strive to be evil or bad or anything like that at all, love of course is what should be aimed for. BUT, since it must exist as part of God's purpose, the people who do evil things have a reason for being and for doing them. As such, they in their own way are doing the will of God as much as someone who is trying to be good is, because again it ALL has a purpose and a place.

Henceforth, their path would eventually return them to God as much as any other path would because of that very fact.

it is Gods will that we have a choice, not all choose God and those who dont , will not be 'forced' to have his salvation

God knowing it and God making it so are not necessarily the same thing

he knows some will choose him and some will not, I Believe

he wants all to choose him but does not force anyone to, I believe

when those who reject him are done with this mortal life, they arent FORCED to accept him anyway,,,,I believe,,,

God has a heaven, God created all, so whatever end that comes to us, is an end back with what God has created,,,whether it be heaven, or somewhere else

it is indeed back to God, his judgment, and its just a matter of whether its eternally with God or eternally seperated from him,,,

It does have a purpose. Without the "evil" or foul things happening in our lives, we wouldn't know that experience. We would become "spoiled" so to speak. We wouldn't be as grateful. If you have absolutely no bad times, you won't appreciate the good times, at least not as much, again you would think there could be better. That's the same thing that happened in the Garden of Eden. The serpent told them it could be "better" if they ate of the fruit. When we get to the paradise after living our lives here, we'll appreciate it more, we'll understand what it's like to not have, we'll understand what it's like to have pains emotional and physical.

No one can be "forced" to believe something. One believes something when they wish. And it's not necessarily just "believing" God wants. God wants a relationship, God wants us to love him. This is displayed through our obedience or disobedience to God, it shows the love thereof or the lacking of love thereof.

That's EXACTLY my point Cowboy, you don't think God knew this when it created us? We could not know good without evil, it'd be like the yin without the yang to balance it. You have to have both.

If God knew this, why are some people to be punished for it when it's something God knew we'd need and wanted? It makes no sense whatsoever.

we are not 'punished'

we are given the opportunity to accept God and his salvation to have eternal life

or to reject him and his salvation to be seperated from him eternally


we have a CHOICE,,,,

Makes perfect sense. Being told something is totally different then experiencing it ourselves. If God would have made us to where we automatically just were obedient, we wouldn't be doing it out of love. We would just automatically act accordingly. We would be nothing more then puppets so to speak. That's not what God wants, God wants a relationship, he wants us to love him because we want to, not because we have to.

Yes true. We aren't "punished" on a daily basis. As in if someone steals something, they won't be "punished" for that act, they won't be put in time out so to speak lol. But things such as the pain of child birth is a punishment put on the female gender.

God only rewards us on Earth, not punishes. You can look at it though and say the not receiving a reward to be a punishment. But he doesn't specifically have something bad happen to you because you did something or didn't ect.

so you still maintain then,that for some strange reason,the Female Gender needs to be punished,even though plenty Females hardly feel Pain when giving Birth!
So actually a Cesarean is against Gods Order then,since it circumvents that "Pain" the Female is supposed to be inflicted with?
Sheesh!
Religion really has raised Havoc with the Human Mind!

It's not a true choice if it's "do as I say or I will make sure you die", nor is it anywhere near love. It is spiritual terrorism.

And before anyone talks about choices and consequences, it's one thing to warn someone of possible danger if they do one thing over another. It's another thing when you are controlling that possible danger, which is what the Biblical God does. They are not the same at all.

No it doesn't, cause your God STILL forces us to make a certain choice if we want to live, there is no free will in a forced choice like that even if we appear to have some form of one. No amount of trying to argue it will make it true.

it is the same, its called consistency

he doesnt give the SAME outcome for every decision, he gives us warning of which outcomes follow which decisions and he stays true to those warnings

you are suggesting that he should not have consequence or law, but both are equal parts of justice, and he is just

he is what he says he is and he will do what he says he will do and he gives us a choice,,,

no, he doesnt. You have a life and I have a life, whatever our choice,, but our choices in that LIFE may give us the added GIFT of eternal life,,,

It's still a forced choice because we have no other option if we wanna keep living. No matter how you wanna twist it around it will always be a form of terrorism on the soul.

INDEED!!!!

I got a ****ing headache reading this thread..

It is. But my point was with regards to changes made by a culture with this kind of religious viewpoint and how it has actually helped damage and control women more. Childbirth doesn't have to be painful, and the story of God punishing women can be negated if women took the initiative and made the change back. You are controlled by what you want to be controlled by. If that control and story claims women should suffer, then women will. And apparently willingly.

And to another comment made about women who use drugs and such to get around the pain, I know 2 church groups in the area who do believe that is absolutely wrong, and will evict their churchmembers who use it. God wants women punished, and women had better understand that!