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| Topic: The Prophecy | |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/03/11 04:09 PM
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Jeanniebean wrote:
The ultimate goal of parents is to raise their children to be adults who make their own decisions. Not simply to train them to be obedient. That's exactly right too. So the analogy doesn't even fit in the first place. A God who demands unquestioned obedience would not be a 'parent' at all, it would be nothing more than a slave taskmaster. So the correct analogy for the Biblical God would be a taskmaster, not a parent analogy. That's probably where the title "master" originated from. Isn't that's what the black slaves called their owners? Yes sir master! |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 09/03/11 04:14 PM
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Prophetic news from Jeanniebean: In the news this coming week: Three of Pentacles. In the news this coming week you will see a lot of talk about the economy, small business, and employment. 
Here is my prophecy coming true already: Listed #1 on the Big News Network dot com: "Obama tells Congress to get back to work on jobs" http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=837435 There may be more this week. |
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First off, God would never ask that. since you claim that Jesus is God ...didn't Jesus ask Abraham to kill his son Isaac ....but let's move beyond what "God would never ask" because there are many examples in the bible of Jesus asking people to kill Secondly no accepting Jesus as lord and saviour doesn't give up any free will. It is through free will I would accept him. I still can act as I wish, I will be judged on how I act and or behave. I WILLINGLY choose to obey my lord, not out of force, not out of fear, but out of love and WILLINGNESS. ok if you say so but then again you already admitted that you were willing to get pregnant by your Father and carry his child if he commanded you to do so .... which mean that you as a Man would have no problems becoming like woman for another Man not out of fear but out of Free WIll willingness...so Cowboy you're probably of a Christian faith that accept gay marriages Who said anything out of fear? My life is my god's, it is in his hands. He can do with what he wants with me and or my life. If he wished for me to bare a child for him, who am I to disagree? Nothing homosexual about it or anything, there would be no sexual intercourse that occurs, just as when Jesus was put in Marry's womb, no sexual intercourse. And again, not out of fear. Purely out of love and willing to be faithful to my god's wishes. |
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The wrath of God does not rule out free will, merely a possible result of usage of the free will. Cowboy....becuase of God's Wrath is why you would let your father get you pregnant and do to you anything that he wanted to do with no complaints from you let's test my theory....is there anything that God could command you to do that you wouldn't Nope, I would do anything and everything God asked and or told me to do. Not out of fear, out of love and willing to be obedient. no you do it out of Fear unless of course you haven't learned anything from the story of Adam and Eve.....this is why as a Christian it is forbidden for you to even utter that you would defy a command from God... come on say that you as a Christian have Free Will and if you see fit,would defy a direct command from God ... if God asked you to kill/murder your parents or children you as a Christian must do it... once you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you in turn give up any delusion of "Free Will" or you're simply not a Christian and this is why it is sexual abuse for God to command favors from Earth Women by placing his Holy Spirit into them ... fallacious argument if we dont have COMPLETE FREEDOM WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE< we dont have freedom this would mean we are not free citizens, because we must obey laws or suffer legal consequences this would mean we have no freedom , regardless of our faith, if we choose to gauge decisions on their potential outcome the mere existence of an unfavorable outcome does not negate that there is choice or freedom of choice,,, 'IF A , then B' does not mean one had no freedom of choice, it just means they had no choice that wouldnt have a consequence(either favorable or unfavorable) MsHarmony, perhaps one of the reasons the argument seem fallacious to you is because you went askew of the topic that was presently being debated, we weren't debating about "Free Will" in soceity, we were debating about how Christians lack "Feee Will" to deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of being destroyed or suffering for all eternity affecting their decisions and that Mary under such threats of retaliation from "the Wrath of God" had no "Free Will" pertaining to her pregnancy and why the pregnancy only came to term not because of magic or by chance but due to the direct manipulation of the event by God,...and that the only way a prophecy can take place is by God taking away "Free Will" |
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the issue seems to be with 'obedience' and interpretation of what it means
some think it reduces a person to robotic control by someone else others believe it is just as much a choice that can come by logic and reason as any other choice, in other words, that it does involve being able to think for oneself enough to recognize the abilities and love of others and how it relates to the likelihood of their guidance being beneficial... |
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The wrath of God does not rule out free will, merely a possible result of usage of the free will. Cowboy....becuase of God's Wrath is why you would let your father get you pregnant and do to you anything that he wanted to do with no complaints from you let's test my theory....is there anything that God could command you to do that you wouldn't Nope, I would do anything and everything God asked and or told me to do. Not out of fear, out of love and willing to be obedient. no you do it out of Fear unless of course you haven't learned anything from the story of Adam and Eve.....this is why as a Christian it is forbidden for you to even utter that you would defy a command from God... come on say that you as a Christian have Free Will and if you see fit,would defy a direct command from God ... if God asked you to kill/murder your parents or children you as a Christian must do it... once you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you in turn give up any delusion of "Free Will" or you're simply not a Christian and this is why it is sexual abuse for God to command favors from Earth Women by placing his Holy Spirit into them ... fallacious argument if we dont have COMPLETE FREEDOM WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE< we dont have freedom this would mean we are not free citizens, because we must obey laws or suffer legal consequences this would mean we have no freedom , regardless of our faith, if we choose to gauge decisions on their potential outcome the mere existence of an unfavorable outcome does not negate that there is choice or freedom of choice,,, 'IF A , then B' does not mean one had no freedom of choice, it just means they had no choice that wouldnt have a consequence(either favorable or unfavorable) MsHarmony, perhaps one of the reasons the argument seem fallacious to you is because you went askew of the topic that was presently being debated, we weren't debating about "Free Will" in soceity, we were debating about how Christians lack "Feee Will" to deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of being destroyed or suffering for all eternity affecting their decisions and that Mary under such threats of retaliation from "the Wrath of God" had no "Free Will" pertaining to her pregnancy and why the pregnancy only came to term not because of magic or by chance but due to the direct manipulation of the event by God,...and that the only way a prophecy can take place is by God taking away "Free Will" again, proving my point,, not everyone believes that 'free will' and being 'without consequence' are human (or christian) qualities that are exclusive of each other |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Sat 09/03/11 04:48 PM
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my foundational truth is that EVERY thing in our life is a choice, some choices are not as pleasant as others, but that doesnt negate them being a choice
the only things we dont choose (as far as I know) are being born(completely in our mothers hands) and dying(a function of being human), although we can have some control over the details of our death and possibly some instances of becoming ill are our choice by the actions that we take that lead to such illness everything in betweem, involves us choosing it,,, that foundation, matched with the non biblical 'truth' that ever action has an equal and opposite REACTION are the two philosophies by which everything else makes perfect sense to me, biblically speaking |
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First off, God would never ask that. since you claim that Jesus is God ...didn't Jesus ask Abraham to kill his son Isaac ....but let's move beyond what "God would never ask" because there are many examples in the bible of Jesus asking people to kill Secondly no accepting Jesus as lord and saviour doesn't give up any free will. It is through free will I would accept him. I still can act as I wish, I will be judged on how I act and or behave. I WILLINGLY choose to obey my lord, not out of force, not out of fear, but out of love and WILLINGNESS. ok if you say so but then again you already admitted that you were willing to get pregnant by your Father and carry his child if he commanded you to do so .... which mean that you as a Man would have no problems becoming like woman for another Man not out of fear but out of Free WIll willingness...so Cowboy you're probably of a Christian faith that accept gay marriages Cowboy you're probably of a Christian faith that accept gay marriages No I am not. Marriage is sacred between a man and woman. Mark 10:6-9 "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." And right here, specifically homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. New Kings James version. 1 Corinthians 6:9 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, |
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Who said anything out of fear? My life is my god's, it is in his hands. He can do with what he wants with me and or my life. If he wished for me to bare a child for him, who am I to disagree? Nothing homosexual about it or anything, there would be no sexual intercourse that occurs, just as when Jesus was put in Marry's womb, no sexual intercourse. And again, not out of fear. Purely out of love and willing to be faithful to my god's wishes. Cowboy ..if you are willing to become like a woman for your Father...that suggest that you have homosexual tendecies... also you keep claiming that sex is only when a penis is place in a vagina...homosexuals generally do not resort to this activity either, but yet what they do is still considered having sex ...this is why it would be sex if your Father impregnanted you with his Holy Spirit and why it was sex when God impregnanted Mary if you claim that you are willing to become like woman and get pregnant by your Father ....then that indicates that you have the potential to be like woman for others besides God ... if not...then explain why you would only be willing to be like woman for your Father and no one else without it sounding like homosexual love |
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the issue seems to be with 'obedience' and interpretation of what it means some think it reduces a person to robotic control by someone else others believe it is just as much a choice that can come by logic and reason as any other choice, in other words, that it does involve being able to think for oneself enough to recognize the abilities and love of others and how it relates to the likelihood of their guidance being beneficial... MsHarmony...it' not about the interpretation of what Obediance is...simply because according to the bible adam and eve didn't have the chance to participate in such a debate when they took from the fruit, since they lacked the knowledge of evil they most likely lack the knowledge as to what disobience was and you see God didn't take that lack of knowledge into consideration.....it was either his way or the yahweh and because they disobeyed him they faced his wrath for it this is why the debate at hand is whether Christians can deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of The Wrath of God affecting their decisions...and then claim it to be "Free Will" |
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that foundation, matched with the non biblical 'truth' that ever action has an equal and opposite REACTION are the two philosophies by which everything else makes perfect sense to me, biblically speaking The law of cause and effect is mentioned in the Bible. Reap what you sew. The Bible also tells all about the law of attraction: Ask and you shall receive. Have faith. Pretend that you already have it... etc. Its all there in the Bible. |
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Edited by
wux
on
Sat 09/03/11 06:04 PM
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Funch, I came up with another refutation of your prosit.
You said, "God gave free will to people. Free will means decisions that are not predictable. God predicted the future using prophets as his mouthpieces. Free will makes the future unpredictable by god. Therefore either free will is not given to men, or prophesies are not predictions." I go with the second solution. There are very few prophesies that came true. Maybe one out of a thousand. The virgin birth, for instance. A thousand prophesies did not come true. There is still a chance that they may come true, but that does not prove their predictive value. To Christians it does, but they don't give it credit on a logical basis, but on a basis that god is infallible. For instance, they Christians believe the prophecy that there will be a thousand years of darkness, during which the devil will rule the world. This has not happened yet. And the Christians will say to the question why they still think it's true, "because God only speaks the truth." Well. That is an assumption that is supported by 1 good prophetic prediction, and unsopported by a thousand unfulfilled prophetic predictions. I say that there is no inherent truth in saying "God knows the future" coz he can't tell prophets to say something that really has come true, with any more accuracy than randomly predicting stuff, like people in the gossip magazines do in the last issue of any year. |
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Funch, I came up with another refutation of your prosit. You said, "God gave free will to people. Free will means decisions that are not predictable. God predicted the future using prophets as his mouthpieces. Free will makes the future unpredictable by god. Therefore either free will is not given to men, or prophesies are not predictions." I go with the second solution. There are very few prophesies that came true. Maybe one out of a thousand. The virgin birth, for instance. A thousand prophesies did not come true. There is still a chance that they may come true, but that does not prove their predictive value. To Christians it does, but they don't give it credit on a logical basis, but on a basis that god is infallible. For instance, they Christians believe the prophecy that there will be a thousand years of darkness, during which the devil will rule the world. This has not happened yet. And the Christians will say to the question why they still think it's true, "because God only speaks the truth." Well. That is an assumption that is supported by 1 good prophetic prediction, and unsopported by a thousand unfulfilled prophetic predictions. I say that there is no inherent truth in saying "God knows the future" coz he can't tell prophets to say something that really has come true, with any more accuracy than randomly predicting stuff, like people in the gossip magazines do in the last issue of any year. To assume that the virgin birth is a prophecy that came true is inaccurate. The story of a virgin birth is symbolic and mythical. In truth, it never happened. It was only said to have happened as the myths before it said it happened. The virgin birth is a myth. You also assume that the thousand years of darkness where the "Devil" (who ever that is) rules the world has NOT happened. I would suggest that this prophecy is happening now, and that the entity of the Catholic Church represents the Devil's rule given the bloody history of all the murder and conquests of our past. It could be all in the interpretation. |
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the issue seems to be with 'obedience' and interpretation of what it means some think it reduces a person to robotic control by someone else others believe it is just as much a choice that can come by logic and reason as any other choice, in other words, that it does involve being able to think for oneself enough to recognize the abilities and love of others and how it relates to the likelihood of their guidance being beneficial... MsHarmony...it' not about the interpretation of what Obediance is...simply because according to the bible adam and eve didn't have the chance to participate in such a debate when they took from the fruit, since they lacked the knowledge of evil they most likely lack the knowledge as to what disobience was and you see God didn't take that lack of knowledge into consideration.....it was either his way or the yahweh and because they disobeyed him they faced his wrath for it this is why the debate at hand is whether Christians can deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of The Wrath of God affecting their decisions...and then claim it to be "Free Will" question asked and answered Free will doesnt require there to be no consequences to any choice,,,, |
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Funch, I came up with another refutation of your prosit. You said, "God gave free will to people. Free will means decisions that are not predictable. God predicted the future using prophets as his mouthpieces. Free will makes the future unpredictable by god. Therefore either free will is not given to men, or prophesies are not predictions." I go with the second solution. There are very few prophesies that came true. Maybe one out of a thousand. The virgin birth, for instance. A thousand prophesies did not come true. There is still a chance that they may come true, but that does not prove their predictive value. To Christians it does, but they don't give it credit on a logical basis, but on a basis that god is infallible. For instance, they Christians believe the prophecy that there will be a thousand years of darkness, during which the devil will rule the world. This has not happened yet. And the Christians will say to the question why they still think it's true, "because God only speaks the truth." Well. That is an assumption that is supported by 1 good prophetic prediction, and unsopported by a thousand unfulfilled prophetic predictions. I say that there is no inherent truth in saying "God knows the future" coz he can't tell prophets to say something that really has come true, with any more accuracy than randomly predicting stuff, like people in the gossip magazines do in the last issue of any year. if an alien went inside a virgin woman and the result was pregnancy...is the woman still a virgin or no longer a virgin wouldn't any form of reproduction in which the father passed off his genes using himself as the delivery system constitute as having sex this is why Mary was not a virgin ..once God entered himself into her and fertilized her seed he was performing sex also this pregnancy wasn't a guess or by chance it was God intentionly taking an active role and doing the deed which cancelled out any "Free WIll" Mary thought she had... what was she to do... say no? ......and suffer for all eternity...or she could have had the child and only have to suffer for 18 years raising the little Demi-God suffer for 18 years or turn down God's pregnancy proposal and suffer for all eternity...those was the options given to Mary ...and this is how God forced his Will upon her and why she had no "Free Will" |
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the issue seems to be with 'obedience' and interpretation of what it means some think it reduces a person to robotic control by someone else others believe it is just as much a choice that can come by logic and reason as any other choice, in other words, that it does involve being able to think for oneself enough to recognize the abilities and love of others and how it relates to the likelihood of their guidance being beneficial... MsHarmony...it' not about the interpretation of what Obediance is...simply because according to the bible adam and eve didn't have the chance to participate in such a debate when they took from the fruit, since they lacked the knowledge of evil they most likely lack the knowledge as to what disobience was and you see God didn't take that lack of knowledge into consideration.....it was either his way or the yahweh and because they disobeyed him they faced his wrath for it this is why the debate at hand is whether Christians can deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of The Wrath of God affecting their decisions...and then claim it to be "Free Will" question asked and answered Free will doesnt require there to be no consequences to any choice,,,, if you have to pay consequences or pay anything...then it's not "Free" ..... |
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the issue seems to be with 'obedience' and interpretation of what it means some think it reduces a person to robotic control by someone else others believe it is just as much a choice that can come by logic and reason as any other choice, in other words, that it does involve being able to think for oneself enough to recognize the abilities and love of others and how it relates to the likelihood of their guidance being beneficial... MsHarmony...it' not about the interpretation of what Obediance is...simply because according to the bible adam and eve didn't have the chance to participate in such a debate when they took from the fruit, since they lacked the knowledge of evil they most likely lack the knowledge as to what disobience was and you see God didn't take that lack of knowledge into consideration.....it was either his way or the yahweh and because they disobeyed him they faced his wrath for it this is why the debate at hand is whether Christians can deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of The Wrath of God affecting their decisions...and then claim it to be "Free Will" question asked and answered Free will doesnt require there to be no consequences to any choice,,,, if you have to pay consequences or pay anything...then it's not "Free" ..... Free will doesn't mean "free" from consequence. It purely is a choice. You have the "FREE"dom of choosing the will you wish to do. But that doesn't mean their will not be a consequence for certain things done. |
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the issue seems to be with 'obedience' and interpretation of what it means some think it reduces a person to robotic control by someone else others believe it is just as much a choice that can come by logic and reason as any other choice, in other words, that it does involve being able to think for oneself enough to recognize the abilities and love of others and how it relates to the likelihood of their guidance being beneficial... MsHarmony...it' not about the interpretation of what Obediance is...simply because according to the bible adam and eve didn't have the chance to participate in such a debate when they took from the fruit, since they lacked the knowledge of evil they most likely lack the knowledge as to what disobience was and you see God didn't take that lack of knowledge into consideration.....it was either his way or the yahweh and because they disobeyed him they faced his wrath for it this is why the debate at hand is whether Christians can deny or defy a command from God without the consequences of The Wrath of God affecting their decisions...and then claim it to be "Free Will" question asked and answered Free will doesnt require there to be no consequences to any choice,,,, if you have to pay consequences or pay anything...then it's not "Free" ..... Wrong funches. |
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Free will doesn't mean "free" from consequence. It purely is a choice. You have the "FREE"dom of choosing the will you wish to do. But that doesn't mean their will not be a consequence for certain things done. even an amoeba due to enviromental stimulation can make a choice and the amoeba has no brain ..which means that you are saying that "Free WIll" does not require one to have a brain if "Free Will" does not mean that the Will is "Free" from consequences...then it's simply not "Free" ...it's no way around this |
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Free will doesn't mean "free" from consequence. It purely is a choice. You have the "FREE"dom of choosing the will you wish to do. But that doesn't mean their will not be a consequence for certain things done. even an amoeba due to enviromental stimulation can make a choice and the amoeba has no brain ..which means that you are saying that "Free WIll" does not require one to have a brain if "Free Will" does not mean that the Will is "Free" from consequences...then it's simply not "Free" ...it's no way around this An amoeba does have a "brain." A single cell has a "brain" and it is located not in the nucleolus but in the "membrane" Anything that can sense and receive and react to stimuli has a brain of sorts. The term "free will" is technically an incorrect term. It is simply THE WILL. It is either used or it is not used. Just like your mouth. You have one, you either use it or you don't use it. The will is the ability to decide where you will place your attention or what you will think about or what you will do. Your thoughts and your actions and even your attention all have consequences. This is a fact you cannot deny. The will itself is neither free or under anyone elses' control. It is an attribute. |
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