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Topic: Faith versus Fear
Kleisto's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:33 PM


So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.






I believe my moral compass to be in place too. I see it like this, as I have said many times before, God has dominion over souls that I simply dont have nor can I truly fathom. I can affect someones mortal life but I have NO affect on what becomes of them after their mortal life is over , yet GOD does.


Yes God does dominion over souls, BUT, if God is on such a higher plane than we are, wouldn't it stand to reason He'd be above such things as the Bible claims He is capable of?

Otherwise if He's not, He's no better than we are!

msharmony's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:36 PM



So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.






I believe my moral compass to be in place too. I see it like this, as I have said many times before, God has dominion over souls that I simply dont have nor can I truly fathom. I can affect someones mortal life but I have NO affect on what becomes of them after their mortal life is over , yet GOD does.


Yes God does dominion over souls, BUT, if God is on such a higher plane than we are, wouldn't it stand to reason He'd be above such things as the Bible claims He is capable of?

Otherwise if He's not, He's no better than we are!



Depends upon what reason you refer to. It stands to my reason that he is above us and that he sometimes sends message through us and our actions.

Abracadabra's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:41 PM
Cowboy wrote:

You talk like God is up there with a whip striking down here cause we didn't wax his hard wood floor correctly or fast enough.


You're the only one we hear speak of God in that way.

By the way, where's "up there"?

Where exactly do you think God is?

Sitting on some throne in a place called heaven combing his beard like Santa Claus?

That sure sounds like a Zeus-flavored mythology to me.

All the biblical authors have done is move Mt Olympus into story book forest. Other than that, it's just Zeus reincarnated.

Kleisto's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:41 PM




So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.






I believe my moral compass to be in place too. I see it like this, as I have said many times before, God has dominion over souls that I simply dont have nor can I truly fathom. I can affect someones mortal life but I have NO affect on what becomes of them after their mortal life is over , yet GOD does.


Yes God does dominion over souls, BUT, if God is on such a higher plane than we are, wouldn't it stand to reason He'd be above such things as the Bible claims He is capable of?

Otherwise if He's not, He's no better than we are!



Depends upon what reason you refer to. It stands to my reason that he is above us and that he sometimes sends message through us and our actions.


You know there's one argument that almost seems like a crutch to me in terms of Christianity. It's the whole notion of: "His ways are not our ways".

Isn't that a little conveiniently absolving this God of any wrong doing? After all how can anyone argue that?


no photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:42 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/20/11 12:46 PM
Yes, Had I been Joshua and God had instructed me to personally save souls by eliminating a cancerous or soul dead people, I would have done it too.



I did not ask you if you had been Joshua. I asked you.

The thing is, any spirit or demon can appear to a person and claim to be God and order them to kill someone. How can you be so sure who they really are?

Also, you have no way of knowing if a person is "soul dead" you would just be following orders.

Imagine yourself with a sword. Imagine a mother and baby. Your orders are to kill them. Your orders are not from God but from Joshua or some other authority that claims to hear God speak. (George Bush perhaps.)laugh :wink:

If you are telling me, that it would not be against your moral compass to kill that mother and baby and that you would actually do it, then it is people like you, (nice "God fearing" people,) who horrify and scare the hell out of me.

I get my moral compass directly FROM GOD that dwells within. I don't take orders from anyone else. I trust only my inner God.

That is my personal relationship with God.






CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:46 PM


So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Funny thing is I used to believe in the whole Bush comment long ago lol, my how times change.

Another example of the whole murder thing in the Bible is the great flood as well. You cannot tell me it is just to wipe out an entire population like that, particularly innocent little children.


What was all so bad about the flood?

Inocent children = Went straight to heaven. Didn't have to deal with physical or emotional pain. Didn't have to deal with diseases, didn't have to deal with anything foul. The only existence they knew was pretty much in the paradise of heaven. Again what is so foul about that? So they had to deal with a bit of time while they drown. That little time, give it most 10 hours is a very small amount of time to eternity.


I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Or bush lied. Claiming that to get the support of the country. The largest organized religion in the USA has always been Christianity. Yes it is dwindling down in this day and age. But nevertheless the USA was/is a Christian country. Only recently in the past 20 years or so has it been God being taken out of it. Pledge of allegiance for example.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:47 PM

Cowboy wrote:

You talk like God is up there with a whip striking down here cause we didn't wax his hard wood floor correctly or fast enough.


You're the only one we hear speak of God in that way.

By the way, where's "up there"?

Where exactly do you think God is?

Sitting on some throne in a place called heaven combing his beard like Santa Claus?

That sure sounds like a Zeus-flavored mythology to me.

All the biblical authors have done is move Mt Olympus into story book forest. Other than that, it's just Zeus reincarnated.


God is in heaven. God has separated "earth" and heaven. God has put up a veil to hide heaven so man could not view it's beauty.

no photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:49 PM
No, God dwells in Paradise.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:50 PM

God has murdered no one. Murder and a judgment are two totally different things. If not then even our society of the world many "judges" would be sent to prison for giving the death penalty.



When Joshua ordered his army to murder men, women and children he claimed that God ordered it.

In any sanctioned murder, the assassin and the person who hired him are both guilty of murder.

If God is all powerful, and the people were truly "evil" then God himself should strike them down. He should not contract Joshua and his men to do it.

If the Bible is correct, and if God ordered Joshua to kill those people, then that God is guilty of murder.

Personally I think Joshua was a liar and a war monger and a ruthless murderer.




God didn't instruct anyone to "murder" anyone. Murder is unlawfully killing of someone(s). Again if a judge tells the executioner to execute so and so for such crimes. Did that executioner or judge commit murder? No, for again murder is unlawful killing of someone. If the law states that you will be murdered for such and such, and you do that. Then of course you will be executed and it obviously isn't "murder" for the law stated as such.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:51 PM

No, God dwells in Paradise.



Agreed. God dwells in Paradise, eg., Heaven.

Kleisto's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:52 PM



So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Funny thing is I used to believe in the whole Bush comment long ago lol, my how times change.

Another example of the whole murder thing in the Bible is the great flood as well. You cannot tell me it is just to wipe out an entire population like that, particularly innocent little children.


What was all so bad about the flood?

Inocent children = Went straight to heaven. Didn't have to deal with physical or emotional pain. Didn't have to deal with diseases, didn't have to deal with anything foul. The only existence they knew was pretty much in the paradise of heaven. Again what is so foul about that? So they had to deal with a bit of time while they drown. That little time, give it most 10 hours is a very small amount of time to eternity.


So by your logic, it'd be perfectly fine for me to smother an infant child just because they'd go to Heaven? Sure they'd suffer a while before they died, but it doesn't matter right?



no photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:53 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 03/20/11 12:55 PM

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Or bush lied. Claiming that to get the support of the country. The largest organized religion in the USA has always been Christianity. Yes it is dwindling down in this day and age. But nevertheless the USA was/is a Christian country. Only recently in the past 20 years or so has it been God being taken out of it. Pledge of allegiance for example.



Of course Bush lied. He only got the support of the insane people who believed his lies.

God is NOT being taken out of this country. Christianity may be dwindling that is for sure. Only Christians think that means that God is dwindling because they think they own GOD. They don't.

I don't pledge allegiance to flags. They are inanimate objects.


CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:54 PM




So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Funny thing is I used to believe in the whole Bush comment long ago lol, my how times change.

Another example of the whole murder thing in the Bible is the great flood as well. You cannot tell me it is just to wipe out an entire population like that, particularly innocent little children.


What was all so bad about the flood?

Inocent children = Went straight to heaven. Didn't have to deal with physical or emotional pain. Didn't have to deal with diseases, didn't have to deal with anything foul. The only existence they knew was pretty much in the paradise of heaven. Again what is so foul about that? So they had to deal with a bit of time while they drown. That little time, give it most 10 hours is a very small amount of time to eternity.


So by your logic, it'd be perfectly fine for me to smother an infant child just because they'd go to Heaven? Sure they'd suffer a while before they died, but it doesn't matter right?





No it would not be right. For it is not your choice when a person leaves this world. It is not your place to make such a judgment. Would be going against the laws of our God anyways. Would be killing someone, murdering someone. And one of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not murder, which ever word you wish to use for it.

no photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:54 PM




So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Funny thing is I used to believe in the whole Bush comment long ago lol, my how times change.

Another example of the whole murder thing in the Bible is the great flood as well. You cannot tell me it is just to wipe out an entire population like that, particularly innocent little children.


What was all so bad about the flood?

Inocent children = Went straight to heaven. Didn't have to deal with physical or emotional pain. Didn't have to deal with diseases, didn't have to deal with anything foul. The only existence they knew was pretty much in the paradise of heaven. Again what is so foul about that? So they had to deal with a bit of time while they drown. That little time, give it most 10 hours is a very small amount of time to eternity.


So by your logic, it'd be perfectly fine for me to smother an infant child just because they'd go to Heaven? Sure they'd suffer a while before they died, but it doesn't matter right?



Yes, and they are mostly against abortion. It don't make much sense does it?


CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:56 PM
Edited by CowboyGH on Sun 03/20/11 12:56 PM



I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Or bush lied. Claiming that to get the support of the country. The largest organized religion in the USA has always been Christianity. Yes it is dwindling down in this day and age. But nevertheless the USA was/is a Christian country. Only recently in the past 20 years or so has it been God being taken out of it. Pledge of allegiance for example.



Of course Bush lied. He only got the support of the insane people who believed his lies.

God is NOT being taken out of this country. Christianity may be dwindling that is for sure. Only Christians think that means that God is dwindling because they think they own GOD. They don't.

I don't pledge allegiance to flags. They are inanimate objects.




Nobody "owns" God. Christianity is merely the past history of our God and the future events that will take place. Nobody owns God, if anything God owns us. And of course the laws to abide by to hopefully achieve the gift of eternal life in the paradise God has made for us.

Kleisto's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:57 PM





So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Funny thing is I used to believe in the whole Bush comment long ago lol, my how times change.

Another example of the whole murder thing in the Bible is the great flood as well. You cannot tell me it is just to wipe out an entire population like that, particularly innocent little children.


What was all so bad about the flood?

Inocent children = Went straight to heaven. Didn't have to deal with physical or emotional pain. Didn't have to deal with diseases, didn't have to deal with anything foul. The only existence they knew was pretty much in the paradise of heaven. Again what is so foul about that? So they had to deal with a bit of time while they drown. That little time, give it most 10 hours is a very small amount of time to eternity.


So by your logic, it'd be perfectly fine for me to smother an infant child just because they'd go to Heaven? Sure they'd suffer a while before they died, but it doesn't matter right?





No it would not be right. For it is not your choice when a person leaves this world. It is not your place to make such a judgment. Would be going against the laws of our God anyways. Would be killing someone, murdering someone. And one of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not murder, which ever word you wish to use for it.


But God does it and it's ok? God can violate His own commandments but it becomes different if we decide do?

Double standard much?

no photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:57 PM
Nobody "owns" God. Christianity is merely the past history of our God and the future events that will take place. Nobody owns God, if anything God owns us.



I'm glad you agree. Now tell the rest of the Christians and LET US HAVE OUR GOD.


Kleisto's photo
Sun 03/20/11 12:58 PM
Edited by Kleisto on Sun 03/20/11 12:59 PM




I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Or bush lied. Claiming that to get the support of the country. The largest organized religion in the USA has always been Christianity. Yes it is dwindling down in this day and age. But nevertheless the USA was/is a Christian country. Only recently in the past 20 years or so has it been God being taken out of it. Pledge of allegiance for example.



Of course Bush lied. He only got the support of the insane people who believed his lies.

God is NOT being taken out of this country. Christianity may be dwindling that is for sure. Only Christians think that means that God is dwindling because they think they own GOD. They don't.

I don't pledge allegiance to flags. They are inanimate objects.




Nobody "owns" God. Christianity is merely the past history of our God and the future events that will take place. Nobody owns God, if anything God owns us. And of course the laws to abide by to hopefully achieve the gift of eternal life in the paradise God has made for us.


But see by trying to say God is only this or only that, you try to put a monopoly on who God is. It can't be done.

Kleisto's photo
Sun 03/20/11 01:00 PM





So if you had an order from God to slaughter women and children, I take it that you would obey that order?

What I object to is God ordering people to kill and/or murder. As you said, dead is dead.

My moral compass is in place.

I don't believe God spoke to Joshua any more than I believe he spoke to George Bush. (Which George Bush claimed.)

That's a bunch of bull.

Which means that THE BIBLE is not being honest or else Joshua lied.


Funny thing is I used to believe in the whole Bush comment long ago lol, my how times change.

Another example of the whole murder thing in the Bible is the great flood as well. You cannot tell me it is just to wipe out an entire population like that, particularly innocent little children.


What was all so bad about the flood?

Inocent children = Went straight to heaven. Didn't have to deal with physical or emotional pain. Didn't have to deal with diseases, didn't have to deal with anything foul. The only existence they knew was pretty much in the paradise of heaven. Again what is so foul about that? So they had to deal with a bit of time while they drown. That little time, give it most 10 hours is a very small amount of time to eternity.


So by your logic, it'd be perfectly fine for me to smother an infant child just because they'd go to Heaven? Sure they'd suffer a while before they died, but it doesn't matter right?



Yes, and they are mostly against abortion. It don't make much sense does it?




No it doesn't. Murder is murder I don't care if "God" is doing it or someone else is. Killing and wiping someone out for whatever reason is NOT love.

CowboyGH's photo
Sun 03/20/11 01:00 PM

Nobody "owns" God. Christianity is merely the past history of our God and the future events that will take place. Nobody owns God, if anything God owns us.



I'm glad you agree. Now tell the rest of the Christians and LET US HAVE OUR GOD.




The term Christianity is only given to us cause of people such as you, people with other beliefs.

Root word of Christianity = Christ.

We are trying to be as much Christ like as we can be to achieve the glory of heaven. Jesus CHRIST was the only begotten child of God and came to fulfill the old covenant and give us a new covenant between man and God. You can have God if you wish, no one is holding him from your grasp. He's out there for anyone and everyone whom wishes to accept Jesus as their lord. For Jesus CHRIST is the only path to our father who art in heaven.

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