it can be both ways if both things are true


Jesus being the way isnt cowboys way, it is just the truth. Its like me saying the only way in my home is the front door. Im not stating that I personally own some exclusive way to get in, IM just stating the fact of HOW TO GET IN.

What you are saying is that if God told you to take your sword and go into a village and kill without mercy all the men, women and children you would do as God asked.

Okay.




Why would it be much more clear just because you are in that time? What would make you think that anything would be more clear 2000 years ago than it is today?




This time, that time... it makes NO DIFFERENCE! Time means nothing to an infinite God.

People's minds are far removed from the actual events of the Bible because it was 2000 years ago.

Therefore it is not REAL them. It is just a story. And it does not actually concern them all that much apparently. They don't really think about these things as being real events.

The reality of those stories has never sank into their minds. Unless you can visualize yourself being in the same position now or back then, you cannot know what you would do or how you would feel.

Time is irrelevant. Only the event itself is relevant.

You also said: "I would probably have no immediate historical context to believe God would order such a thing...IN THIS TIME."

This may come as a surprise to you, but TIME MEANS NOTHING TO GOD. If God would order such a thing 2000 years ago, then he would certainly order it today. 2000 years is NOTHING in the face of an infinite God and time does not change his nature.

This is what I think. I don't believe you would lop off a baby's head for any reason. If I thought otherwise I would be convinced that your God is actually Satan himself and you are under his control.

I don't believe that.

Sorry to get so off topic. The thought that anyone would kill a human being without mercy on orders from any God, as is told in the Bible just makes me very sad. It is one of the reasons I rejected Christianity in the very beginning.

The reason for killing without mercy is the idea or belief that these people were soulless evil humans, not worth saving. But were they really? Or were they simply killed because they occupied the land that someone else wanted? If you use your head and think realistically, and if you watch and see what most wars today are fought for, then the answer is clear.

Throughout history the same story is told to armies who are being prepared for war. The armies on both sides are told and convinced that they are killing people who are "evil."

That is why I become very alarmed when a President like George Bush talks about who he thinks is "evil" and says things like "You are either with us or against us."

This is quite insane and terrifying and it makes me shudder and feel very sad.

Have you forgotten these scriptures?

Eccl 9:5

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
NKJV


Gen 1:1 - Josh 1:2
2 "Moses My servant is dead
NKJV

Ps 88:10-12
Shall the dead arise and praise You?
Selah
11 Shall Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave?
Or Your faithfulness in the place of destruction?
12 Shall Your wonders be known in the dark?
And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
NKJV

Ps 115:16-18

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are Yahweh's;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
17 The dead do not praise Yahweh,
Nor any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless Yahweh
From this time forth and forevermore.

Praise Yahweh!
NKJV

Isa 26:19

19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead .
NKJV

Matt 8:22

22 But Yahshua said to him, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead ."
NKJV

Matt 22:29-33

29 Yahshua answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of Elohim. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead , have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32'I am the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead , but of the living." 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
NKJV

Luke 8:51-56
52 Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, "Do not weep; she is not dead , but sleeping." 53 And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead .

54 But He put them all outside, took her by the hand and called, saying, "Little girl, arise." 55 Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And He commanded that she be given something to eat. 56 And her parents were astonished, but He charged them to tell no one what had happened.
NKJV

Luke 20:34-38

34 Yahshua answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead , neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Master 'the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob.' 38 For He is not the Elohim of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."
NKJV

John 5:25-26
5 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Yahweh; and those who hear will live.
NKJV

John 6:48-49
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead
NKJV

Acts 10:42
42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by Yahweh to be Judge of the living and the dead
NKJV

Gen 1:1 - 1 Cor 15:58

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality , then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to Elohim, who gives us the victory through our Master Yahshua our Messiah.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord
NKJV

1 Tim 6:12-16
13 I urge you in the sight of Yahweh who gives life to all things, and before Messiah Yahshua who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Master Yahshua our Messiah appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Master of masters, 16 who alone has immortality , dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV

Matt 10:28-29
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
NKJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the evangel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
NKJV

Rev 21:7-8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NKJV

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before Yahweh, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
NKJV

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
NKJV


all die except for the few who are chosen before Yahshua's return then the dead who are asleep as sleep is like death.. you have no concept of time.. when you awake it is as if you just woke up from sleep.

all people except Yahshua our Messiah are asleep.. no torment they are as when you sleep.. the next thing whether when the living are changed and they who are his rise from the dead rise until the judgement when the rest of the dead will rise when the Books of thier recorded works or how they lived thier lives will rise to immortality or thrown into the lake of fire for total destrustion. Yahweh does not torture the dead forever they are given a death sentence and will never know nothing again whether fear , joy or life.. the Doctrine of the Dead from the Book of The Dead in Eygpt which the ministers of Satan have latched onto to make followers out of fear to serve them and not Yahweh. will all be judged. This is one reason why we do not judge those outside of our own and ourselves to which the greatest judgement should come to change our lives for the better. Vengence is mine says Yahweh leave it as that because untill u walk in anouthers mans shoes you do not know what they are going through. Choose Life and live it as our Example Yahshua Messiah by the good works of your life which you desire to do from the goodness of your Heart.. May Yahweh Bless us and Teach us his ways of Wisdom and not mans..Shalom...Miles

Truly,

The Old Testament stories are far better off being accepted as pure mythology no different from Greek Mythology.

There is absolutely no reason for us to believe that a supposedly all-wise, all-righteous God would have ever condone or directed events as described in the Old Testament.

And for a person to place mere "faith" in the idea their creator God would have done such a thing seems to be very POORLY placed "faith" if you ask me.

No way am I about to accept such absurdities on "pure faith".

I see no reason to place faith in such an insane thing, IMHO.

Why would I want to have faith that my creator is that ignorant?

That makes no sense to me.

Time is not irrelevant to context. If, when my dad was alive and with me, when I saw him every day, he had told me to do so, I would be pretty clear that it was actually him because I would have an IMMEDIATE and REPETITIVE and RECENT exposure to make me confident it was him.

Now, however, that he has been PASSED for several years and I have never actually SEEN him since the day after his passing, I would be a bit more wary as to whether the person before me was him.

IN the time of Moses, God had much more direct and frequent contact with certain people. His presence was felt and SEEN much more regularly and in a much more concrete way so that he would be easier to recognize that at this time when he doesnt keep that same frequent contact in any TANGIBLE sense. And in a time when we have been warned of all the false prophets that will have arisen(much moreso than at that time).

From what I understand, only Joshua actually "saw" and spoke with "God." Nobody else.

Sort of like George Bush.

Jer 21:14 (NIV) "I will punish you as your deeds deserve, declares the Lord

Mercy--not getting what you do deserve / withheld punishment

Grace--getting what you don't deserve / unmerited favor




Rom 2:5 (Phi) Or are you by your obstinate refusal to repent simply storing up for yourself an experience of the wrath of God in the day of his anger when he shows his hand in righteous judgment?


God saw something in their soul and delivered a just sentence. Nothing that was done to them was not being done BY them to others.

I have no qualms with universal law. I have no qualms with the laws of cause and effect. I have no qualms with the laws of consequences.

What I don't accept is a directive from a false God for me to murder people, for only a false God would do such a thing.

The laws in place are automatic justice. The one true God does not need nor does he utilize and army to slaughter people.

Hence I have judged that the God that spoke to Joshua was a false God. Joshua was fooled or else he was a liar.

shrugs,,,ok

I am clear that that is what you believe.

Just explain to me how a loving God would instruct anyone to kill somebody? Seems like a glorified hitman to me.

What I would like to know, is how anyone can possibly believe that God would ask humans to slaughter other humans.

If this God is so all powerful, there would be no need for it. (He could raise his hand and take their souls.

By asking people to kill without mercy, you de-humanize them and desensitize them. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who has had to kill others in wartime.

This is no way to spread love in the world.

Truly.

I believe that same as Jeannie.

Why should we believe kooks who use God as an excuse to mass murder people?

Besides, the way the story is told in the Bible it makes absolutely no sense at all.

First off, the Canaanites we're supposedly worshiping a God. Well they can't very well have rejected God if they were still worshiping a God. At best all they could have been was confused. An all-wise God should know better than to confuse the objects of his creation.

Secondly, this had supposedly been going on for something like 400 years between God and the Canaanites. Well, gee whiz if an all-powerful, all-wise God wanted the Canaanites dead he had PLENTY of opportunity to simply make them all STERILE. Then they would all be gone within a single generation, and there would be absolutely no need for God to have to direct HIS PEOPLE to kill the Canaanites for him.

This idea that a God who commands people not to kill would set things up to where he's actually asking his children to kill other children because he's too LAZY or UNWISE to figure out a way to deal with them himself is just plain nonsense, IMHO.

If this God had some "Promised Land" that he had "Promised" to the Hebrews, then what's he even allowing the Canaanites to establish there culture on that piece of land for?

That makes absolutely no sense. If this God is supposed to be all-knowing he could have seen this coming LONG BEFORE this and he could have dealt with the Canaanites himself as I had suggested by making them all sterile, rather than allowing them to settle on land that he had "Promised" to someone else!

The whole story is insane, IMHO.

The whole scenario is totally uncalled for.

An all-wise, all-powerful, all-knowing God could SURELY have done far better than these biblical stories portray. They necessarily must be false.

Sure, the Hebrews probably did kill the Canaanites and STEAL their land claiming that God had "Promised" it to THEM. But does that truly make any sense?

It most certainly doesn't make any sense to me.

Like Jeannie mentioned earlier, this was just another "George Bush" episode is all.

"God is on OUR SIDE! Not YOURS!"

Seriously, I'm going to have to take a break from this subject because it is making me depressed and sad and I am not normally a sad person.

I follow my heart and my heart tells me that this is not right. I knew it when I was a very small child and I know it now. What I find sad is that people believe these things and profess that rather than "disobey" their (false) god, they would go to war and kill a village.

This kind of killing happens in wartime. They call these atrocities. They call these massacres. They call the people responsible for these things "war criminals."

Yes, they all had directives from their leaders. Yes, they all thought they were doing the right thing. The result is that they themselves were de-humanized.

It truly makes me very sad.

I'm going to go do something fun now.

bye

My feelings exactly.

Jesus might have made a good religion on his own. But Jesus has no clout on his own unless we view him as a Buddha. As an enlightened mortal man.

But Christianity is founded on the principle that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham who was crucified to pay for our sins. Thus Christianity MUST support the Old Testament as the verbatim "Word of God".

Jesus is nothing to them if he isn't standing on the shoulders of the God of Abraham. Jesus has absolutely no clout of his own. He has no authority at all save for supposedly being the only begotten son of the God of Abraham sent as a sacrificial lamb to pay for this sins of mankind.

Take the Christian Jesus off the shoulders of the God of Abraham and he has no feet of his own upon which to stand.

Sad but true.

This is why the Christians MUST SUPPORT the entire Old Testament as the "Verbatim Word of God". Because without that support, their picture of Jesus is totally meaningless.

That's the true SHAME of Christianity.

First Jesus was nailed to cross for having rejected the teachings of the Torah.

Then he was nailed to the Torah via the New Testament.

He was doubly crucified. Once in the flesh, and the second time his spirit was crucified.

That's how I see "Christianity".

Sorry to say it. But this is truly how I see it. A double crucifixion of Jesus. Once in the flesh, and then they crucified the very things that he stood for by nailing him to the Old Testament as "The Christ".

First they nailed him to a pole. Then they nailed him to their religion.

I agree wholeheartedly Jeannie.

It's a seriously depressing religion in my eyes as well.

And in a very real way it's truly insulting that someone would ask me to support it or condone it, much less actually ask me to believe in it.

What is sad about eternal life? What is sad about no diseases? What is sad about no pain? What is sad about glorifying the creator of all? What is sad about Christianity?

Christianity causes no pain to anyone. It does not condone killing another, it does not condone stealing from another, it does not condone anything immoral. I ask again what is sad about Christianity?

Christianity is a religion based on a story of a God who condemns the vast majority of souls he creates to a place of everlasting punishment.

You think that's not sad?

God condemns no one. We condemn ourselves or we save ourselves. We choose to obey his laws "saving ourselves" or we refuse to "condemning ourselves". Why must you put the blame on someone else?

Well, if you want to look at it that way then then it's not required to believe in Jesus or Christianity in order to be "saved" and it clearly has nothing to do with any sacrificial lambs either.

Jesus himself said, "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven".

Well, I don't judge others, I don't condemn anyone, and I forgive all, so there you go.

You can rest assured that I will indeed not be condemned, and so I guess that equates to being "saved".

And there isn't even any need to support Christianity in any way shape or form. In fact, this same message is actually also taught by many other religions including Wicca and Buddhism.

Still, I see no reason to send people who judge others to everlasting punishment. But then I forgive everyone.

Evidently the Hebrews believe that God does not.