or perhaps go with what the bible claim him to be ....the son of god

Thanks. So, my next question is "Is the purpose of the debate to debunk your assumed myth that Jesus had God's powers?" I am assuming here that you believe it is a myth and that your hobby is debunking myths.

the purpose of the debate is to debate the topic ...I could be wrong but isn't that the nature of the debating forum ...

the controversy could be the results of many things and not necessarily believing that Jesus is God but trying to distance Christianity from Judaism

the Jews are supposedly the chosen ones so by the church claiming that Jesus is God and that Jesus died on the cross for Christianity would have Christians believing that Christianity is God's chosen religion so the Trinity was used to kidnap Yahweh and turn him into a Christian God

Debating is not all the forums are about. The religious forums are used to debate, discuss, teach, learn, exchange ideas in general, and other things. I am not criticizing anything you are doing. I am trying to fully understand what you are doing.

Some people post in the religious thread under the pretext to openly discuss issues of controversy, but later make it clear that the actual purpose was simply to bash the religion (usually Christianity) and had no real intention of attempting to learn, understand, or any other positive aspect of the religion being discussed. It appears you are requesting people to share their beliefs. Are you offering yours also?

but if debating is one of the things this forum is used for and I'm here debating then it becomes you that has the problem....you should then look within yourself and ask why do you have the need to come into a debating forum where issues are debated just to ask people why they are here debating

Normally I wouldn't. I just understood from your profile that your hobby was "myth busting" and I was curious if that was what you were doing here. I don't have a problem with debating anything... as long as I understand exactly what is being debated. There are many debates about philosophy here. Usually true debates on the religious threads are between believers and non-believers or believers and believers. I can't tell by your posts exactly where you are debating from but, no matter, Good Luck with it.

Normally you shouldn't ...it's somewhat delusional to ask a debator why they are in a debating forum debating ...especially if they are abiding by the rules of the forum

This is often a subject of debate and it does seem confusing sometimes.To begin with there was God and there was Jesus.Before Jesus was born the people prayed to God.There was no new testament in the bible as Jesus had yet to fulfill his prophecy.It is important to note that in the old testament Jesus was prophesized down to every detail including how he would live and die.

Jesus is God in the sense that he was the new savior of the earth and mankind.In a way God stepped aside and let Jesus take the helm.Jesus was also granted all the powers of God including defeating death.Although Jesus had much power God was still in control of his destiny and Jesus often prayed to God before he performed a miricle.Jesus's death was a sacrifice made by God to pay for the sins of the world.After his death it was wrote that the only way to get into heaven was to believe in Jesus and believing in God would no longer get you a ticket into heaven.

So in summary you have the Father,the Son,and the Holy ghost.All are equally important and all play a big part in modern Christianity.Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God and both are watching,judging,and listening to our prayers.Some people still pray to God and some only pray to Jesus.I pray to both as they are equally important to me.

hiS ONLY begotten SON,, WE ARE BEGOT, FROM MALE AND FEMALE ,,,sorry for the caps

We are his children but JC was his only BEGOTTEN son.

you didn't even read a word about the Arian Controversy did you?

if that works for the individual then be my guest.

When it comes to the topic of Jesus it's really impossible to say anything about with any inkling of certainty. We have absolutely nothing that had every been written by the man himself. We can only assume that either he was illiterate, he purposefully chose not to write anything down, or his actual writing (if they existed) were destroyed by people who didn't want us to know the truth of what Jesus might have said (assuming that he even actually existed).


So if we go solely by the gospels we're going by the words of other men who may or may not have had a clue what they were talking about. Clearly the gospels are quite belated hearsay.

Moreover, there isn't even anything in the gospels where Jesus told anyone to go about writing any books for future generations.

In addition to that three of the gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) all contain the following statements that are supposedly quotes from the man named Jesus:



Matt.24
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Mark.13
[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.


Luke.21
[31] So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
[32] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Now supposedly Jesus was preaching live. So if this is what Jesus had been preaching then there is no reason whatsoever to believe that Jesus intended anything that he had preached to be passed beyond the very generation he was speaking to live. So why these guys were writing this down in a book for future generations is beyond me, it clearly contradicts the very intentions of the man they are claiming to quote.

Now many scholars believe that Mark actually wrote this account and then Matthew and Luke merely repeated Mark's gossip. This would explain why these stories contain so many identical quotes (like the ones above).

However, these stories also clearly contain additions by each writer which suggest that if they were merely copying Mark's account they were expounding on it with their own imagination.

For example, Matthew chapter 27 is the only one of these three gospels that contains the following claim:


[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


This suggests that Matthew was a bit overzealous in his desire to convince people that Jesus was God. I think if such a profound thing would have happened many more people would have written about this than just Matthew.

Finally, many people attempt to claim that the Bible is infalliable. But this clearly isn't true. The Bible contains clear and obvious contradictions to it's own stories.

For example:


Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Acts 1:18
Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.


Here we have Matthew claiming that Judas cast down the peices of silver in the temple and went out and hanged himself.

But then Luke (who also wrote the book of Acts) claims that Judas purchased a field with his reward of iniquity and fell to his death.

So here we have two men who are either making up their own stories or who clearly have no clue what they are talking about.

We can't trust these authors to be consistent in their stories. Someone is clearly telling fibs here.

So, getting back to whether Jesus was the Son of Yahweh. I see no reason to believe that he was. Even if we consider many of the things that are written in the gospels we see Jesus disagreeing with the teachings of the Yahweh, and actually teaching things more along the line that the Buddha taught in India.

I see nowhere in any of the gospels where Jesus himself claimed to have been born of a virgin, or claimed to be the son of Yawhew.

It does appear that Jesus did view himself as a child of God, but then the gospels even have Jesus saying, "Ye are gods".

So even the gospels have Jesus confessing that all are god.

Just by looking at this text and paying close attention I think it's obvious that Jesus was a Pantheist (probably educated in Indian, or at least by Indian Monks, in the teachings of Buddha).

The teachings of Jesus are in prefect alignment with the teachings of Buddha, and Jesus actually denounced the teaching of Yahweh from the Old Torah. In fact, that's probably why he was crucified.

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of Yahweh. Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of Yahweh.

Moreover, even Yahweh would have had to have been a complete idiot to have commanded people to murder heathens and then send his "only begotten son" into that same crowed to blaspheme his own teachings.

What sense does that even make?

It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

So, no. After having studied the Bible I'm thoroughly convinced that Jesus could not possibly have been the son of Yahweh.

John 3:16-17

Peace

Maybe Jesus was never a baby! Now how absurd can that thought be

or what if the bible had it all wrong and Jesus was actually a woman!

I am getting to imaginative here aren't I.

Anyway if Jesus is the son of God for folks then so be it. It makes them happy and that is all I would like to see. People laughing, enjoying their faith whatever that is, and creating peace of mind and heart with everyone around them.

Good luck on your search to happiness.

If that's the way it actually worked out in practice it would be great.

Unfortunately that's not how it ends up working out. It can become quite hostile and a basis for extreme bigotry.

Even when I used to be a Christian I found myself defending Jesus from the "Christians" who used him as an excuse to judge and bully other people.

I was bullied myself by Christians simply because I didn't interpret Jesus as a monster.

Try telling a Christian that you're not a sinner and see how that goes over. Yes according to the Bible Jesus washed away our sins.

I guess they didn't believe that part.

I think the reason that most decent people find Jesus attractive in the first place is precisely because he denounced the old teachings of Yahweh. People didn't like the idea of having to stone sinners to death.

There's the parable of Jesus at the well telling people who are without sin to cast the first stone. Suppose I was there and stood up and told Jesus that I am without sin and then asked him if HE wants me to throw a stone at the woman.

After all, who's idea was it to stone sinners to death in the first place?

Supposedly that was a commandment from God. So does God want us to stone sinners to death or not?

It's stupid.

You have a god commanding us to stone sinners to death and then turning around and acting like it was our frigg'in idea in the first place.

I don't want to stone anyone to death. So does God want us to stone people to death or not?

Yahweh says YES.

Jesus says NO.

Sounds like two entirely different opinions to me. A God that can't even make up his mind?

The New Testament tries to make out like it's the mob's idea to stone the sinners to death. But that was supposed to be God's directive! The whole story is an oxymoron.

A God that teaches people to behave in such a manner and then acts like it was their idea!

And then he has the audacity to say that he has not come to change the laws and that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law?

There's something horribly wrong with the whole story if you ask me.

I think Jesus just tried to teach people some civility in spite of their horrible religion and ended up being crucified for it. Then later they used him as a dead patsy to prop it back up again by writing the so-called 'gospels' that clearly contain fabrications as well as outright made-up lies.

The book clearly contains lies. There can be no doubt about that whatsoever. Matthew and Luke told totally different accounts of what happened to Judas. One claims he toss the money down in the temple and went off and hanged himself, the other one claims that Judas accepted the money, bought a field, and died from a fall.

Somebody is making things up! These authors clearly can't be trusted to know what they are talking about. They lie.

The book is clearly not the infalliable word of any God.

Sorry, but it's right there in the doctrine.

As I recall, of the ten commandments directly from God, none involved stoning.

Thomas3474.....if you claim that "Jesus is God in a sense" and then claim that God stepped aside to let Jesus take the helm then wouldn't this be an indication that Jesus was not God

well actually I read two words "Arian Controversy" which means the controversy is outside the scope of what's written in the bible

there are millions of books written on whether Jesus is God and it would take an eternality to read them all and they will all lead to the same place which is the original source aka the bible

if the answer can not be found in the bible then it can not be found elsewhere after the fact

unfortunetly those individuals form armies to force it to work for them