yeah Bill why don't you keep praying for us all to change our minds...
were just confused heathens and don't know what works in our own lives.. Thank you

Well then pray that i lose my sense of logic, and maybe i will believe.

You all do, because you all have far more things that you consider to be sins. Much of the bible is outdated, and irrelavant, and there is no point in living your life by it in modern times. Thats if there was ever any sense to it in olden times as well.

I see no evidence that murder and rape are on the rise. Those things have always happened. Perhaps even less now than in the past

God threatens to have innocent women raped------


Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]2 Samuel 12:11-14

The proper way to sell your daughter into sexual slavery according to the Bible---------



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)



As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.



God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

Sins? What is sin? Who determines what is right and wrong?

I say GOD does. Which is no surprise to anyone at this point.


But how does the person who does not believe in GOD know right from wrong?


Is it as simple as: dont kill, dont steal, dont be mean, etc..

If there is no GOD, then who decides what is right or wrong?

You say? I say? Who are we to tell each other what is right or wrong?

If I steal your money, thats bad for you. Not for me.

Im going OT here, sorry.

But if there is no GOD and the Bible was just written by men; then arnt morality and the concept of sin really just subjective concepts?

Meaning that good and evil are really just ideas or concepts instead of actual standards or truths.

The way I see it, without GOD we make our own rules. Why should I follow socities rules of conduct? Really... as long as I dont get caught. I should be able to whatever I want. Right?

If the things you speak of preventing are rape, murder, etc., then the answer is that you can't prevent them. These violences have been as constat in human culture as fire. It will take us all collectively to change these behaviour patterns, but until that happens we have to rely on the laws in place, as they have been in some form or another to try and safegaurd from these acts. And that is what the bible quotes are, an example of the laws of men, with just enough "divinity" thrown in to really drive the point home....well,more or less.

Oh, yes, there are religious scams out there, and who I call, "Country-Club Christians"...y'all know who you are.
If a white, apparently unattached male attempts to walk into a church to enjoy a good service, he'd better be prepared to deal with the "stink look" (people staring at you, in an attempt to make you uncomfortable so as to drive you out). Sadly, I have absolutely NO CONTROL over today's headlines. And if I happen to fit some idiotic profile, so what?
But as for you, my friend, would you refrain from going to the hospital, simply because it is full of sick people? Same for church.
Church is full of spiritually sick people; that's why they go. Don't let the actions of others endanger your quest for salvation.
And incidently, I'm not so sure I agree with Joel Osteen's selling of tickets to his "services".
IRS: "Mr. Osteen, you must pay some taxes; you're a motivational speaker."
Osteen: "Excuse me sir, but that is incorrect. I'm a preacher!"
Attendee of his service: "Joel, why must I buy a ticket to hear the word of God?
Osteen: "But I'm a motivational speaker!"
Dude's got it going on.
However, I look at the fruits of his labors...seems to be very positive.

Mirror, you are definitely twisted.
I love it!

umm...wouldn't it have been better if God said something like..oh I dunno...DON'T RAPE ANYBODY?

If you truly believe that last line, I hope you never lose your religious guidance. They have a name for people w/o any innate concept of right and wrong. Sociopath.

Everyone else's innate concepts of right and wrong come from empathy. The ability to put one's self in the shoes of someone else.

For example, I don't steal. I make this choice not because any god tells me not to, but because I don't want my stuff stolen and I can understand why someone else wouldn't want their stuff stolen.

Empathy is a very human thing. A very powerful thing. And no god is required. And I would furthur submit that empathy should be the basis of any system of laws.

When 'GOD' speaks to me in other than a tool of man I will only then accept the right or wrong of it.

Currently the 'determiners' of what most consider sins and such... Are the same 'determiners' of what was considered the 'word of god'.

So then who exactall made the rules... It sure ain't god.

i am stuck on band-aid brand 'cause band-aid stuck on me!

Don't let MAN use GOD to trick you out of securing your own salvation.
If you've given up on God, that's not too bad, 'cuz God hasn't given up on you...

Here is part of one of my favorite songs..Seems to tell it like it is...Miles

http://music.myyearbook.com/popout/?playlist=c0WPtuOSjS&user=17287135



I'll proclaim you to the father
If you proclaim me to the people
My father said, "Church, it's in your heart, son"
You don't always need a steeple
A preacher's truths aren't alway shown
If you follow a heart, make sure it's your own
One man's lifted up to Heaven
One man's cast into Hell
the first man's beliefs are the second man's prison
the second man's beliefs are the first man's jail
To be or not to be
Born to decide what will set you free

When it's said and done
Sit back and watch the show
When it all goes down
There ain't nobody knows

well i must have missed the news when it reported that GOD supported george bush,as far as the churches and mans representation of god's will thereto is not GOD's fault then as far as the bible well lets just say i have my issues with it as well ..but if i were to abandon someone..it would be because of what they did and not how others represented him
..

I didn't grow-up in the "church" but came to faith as a teen in an extremely conservative body. I understand your rejection of extreme conservative dogma. Unfortunately it happens in many churches. They get caught-up in the religion & not on the relationship with God. Jesus took the Pharisees & Sadducees to task for the very same thing.

I'm not familiar with the 1 voice/1 world choice issue you raise. There are many who speak out of turn concerning the "end times", but the bottom line is Jesus 1st returns to call His saints home & then later returns & kicks butt @ Armageddon & establishes His Earthly kingdom. He & His followers win & Satan & his followers, lose. That's all you need to know.

As to whether G-W was a good president, as American citizens we have the right to decide it that's true or not. But keep in mind the O-T writing says that God puts into power whom he shall, whether for good or evil, it's all for according to His perfect plan. It's a matter of whether you trust God that he knows what He is doing. That's called faith.

Finally, I'm 100% in agreement about the bilking of believers. It's an awful practice to guilt believers into giving WAY beyond their means. Tithes are meant to be FREE WILL love offerings.

Remember few church bodies or leaders are corrupt. Unfortunately the bad ones gain the lions share of attention. Keep your eyes on God not man. The former won't let you down, the latter will, guaranteed.

If you ever want to talk, drop me a line.

Wow may want to research who believes in religion before making that statement. Only reason you can even make that statement is because of people who believed in religion.