That is if every word attributed was really spoken by him. When I look at the earliest dates of many of the verses that are directly attributed as being his I gain no confidence that it is so.

I myself went to Sunday school many times, and found an interest in and accepted many of the morals as being true for me, and being good in general.

Each of these things can be held up separately, and for reason's sake and to be intellectually honest with yourself you should do so.

I am not saying that once you do this you will be an atheist I really do not think that has to be the conclusion reached even using sound reason and judgments.

So in this way I as an atheist but do not think it follows that to be spiritual requires delusion.

Not mutually exclusive either

This idea that atheist must feel this way, or when we argue these various points that apologist use it does not mean that the base of our arguments are rooted in the idea that belief in god must be delusional, irrational perhaps but not delusional.

However we are all irrational about something, that I a sure of, if yours is the benign belief that this universe was created by a god, cool. I think QM is irrational, but I accept it due to evidence.

I think my core concern and problem only comes into play when the theist start worshiping death, and the end of the world, and decide they are in contact with this creator and can tell us what he wants of us. Then I start to get real concerned.

It seems far to often that when these are the motives of the theist, that what follows is apologetic assertions based on false science and bad logic to try to fish up as much support as possible, becuase power cannot grow in a vacuum.

This is why I will be willing to study and explain what science I learn to at least show the manipulations.

If you believe on faith, or even personal experience I respect you, but if you believe out of some twisted logic, or some misshapen science, or just plain not even wrong science, then I will be there to examine your work and make a fair shake of the facts.

Yeah that’s another thing. Abra always brings that point up. It’s ALL second hand. The entire NT is based on what people “thought" Jesus was saying or how they interpreted his words through the filter of their own understanding.

A good leader leads from the front and by example

I think, or feel that Christ was "God with us" in the flesh. Setting the example for us to follow.

I find that the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

the stench of hatred only smoke up the mirror of the eyes that see thru it, blinding to see not what soon imprison itself, until the cries of others as evil and bad bring unto self the VALIDATION IT WISHED, then VALIDATION turn and destroy with what came from the beggings those that sought validation wished for.....

validation be the dragon that sley all things, then cause it's own demise when all said and done as well, as it has nothing to love nor live for, as it has already destroyed all that was good and beautiful........

the praying mantus show what those that believe in praying for the destruction of evil soon bring..........

what is prayer other than thought?

text saying to prayer without ceasing?

nothing is without ceasing other than thought?

the heart of the wise complete any truth, NOT HAVE IT GIVEN?

so THOUGHTS minus malice, and distain, and hate, and bigotry, and demise, BE THE SAME AS PRAYER?

if these exist in the thoughts, and they are KEPT there, then they are captured and taken into the heart, where they create a ENERGY, giving the
energy to act them out?

these cannot be let out, less they are spoken, and HATE is only created if it is KEPT INSIDE?

the speaking of such things only allow self to hear from the hearing it's own thought aloud, ITSELF DOES NOT WISH WHAT IT THINK ITSELF WISH, less there is VALIDATION FOUND, WHICH CREATE MORE ENERGY, OR POWER TO CREATE EASIER?

shall mankind destroy itself by funneling itself down it's own self created drain?

to create a place of suppression that all things are afraid to speak their mind for FEAR of DEFINITIONS CREATED OF GOOD SPEECH, and good actions according to a "moral code of holy", create a PLACE THAT HAS NO OTHER POSSIBILITY OF BREWING ANYTHING BUT HATE..........

the collective WISH FOR DEMISE, create a ENERGY OF DEMISE, and if this OUTWIEGH THE COLLECTIVE THOUGHTS OF GOOD FOR ALL, then soon collective wishes create and are granted?

jesus was for equal of all and all as having a pre-determined destiny that all things both good and bad lead to?

he was MOST AGAISNT THOSE THAT MADE THEMSELF HOLY LEADERS ONLY SEEKING VALIDATION AND PRAISE AND POSITIVE AFFIRMATION AS A "SIGN" AS TO WHAT AS TRUE OR REAL OR BEST?

I found "Johnny Cash reads the New Testament" in a DVD box set on Amazon the other day.

I am saying your actually a skeptic.

When I read the New Testament I truly see it as much demagoguery.

I mean, there are things that Jesus clearly taugh (if he even existed!), and those are the things that refute what the Old Testament had to say. Such as turning the other cheek instead of seeking revenge, and to stop stoning people and not to judge others.

Of course, those are all things that a new establishment would welcome anyway. They were probably sick of the people taking the law into their own hands, so having Jesus denounce stoning sinners to death was probably seen as a good thing.

In any case, the parts I see as pure demagogurey are any parts where they try to make it look like Jesus supports the Old Testament.

I think a lot of the things that Jesus said make perfect sense when he is viewed as a patheist or Buddhist.

For example, he was always attributed with saying thing in a very round about way,....

Like "before Abraham was I AM"

Is that a claim that he's the SON of the God of Abraham?

No, not at all. On the contrary he's claiming to exist even BEFORE the God of Abraham!

That's pantheism.

Any pantheist will tell you that they are primordial. That's the basis of pantheism.

He also said, that He and the Father are one. Again, that's the pantheisitc view. We are spirit!

He was also attributed with saying, "Ye are also gods!"

Well, what more can I say?

If that's not pantheism I don't know what is!

When I read the Bible I don't see anywhere where Jesus outright claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham.

He always tip-toed around those kinds of questions, and answered them in a way that any pantheist would.

Moreover, if when people read the Bible they would recognize that ALL MEN are "The Son". Then the teachings of Jesus are pure pantheism.

It's only if you read "The Son" to mean the one and only son of the God of Abraham is where it looks like he's talking about himself and claiming to be the son of God.

He said that we are also the children of God.

I'm totally convinced that Jesus was trying to teach a barbaric society pantheism and trying to steer them away from their very crude and hostile religion that they previously had.

I mean, I think any SANE person will agree that the teachings of the Old Testament were what we would today consider to be IMMORAL.

Yet they think that was the inspired word of the creator of this universe?

The reason that Christians worship JESUS and not the God of Abraham is because they don't like the God of Abraham at all.

Moreover, if Jesus was sent by the God of Abraham to be his sacrifical lamb, then how did Jesus end up becoming God?

You're not suppose to worship the sacifical lamb as though it is God!

If Jesus was the sacrifcial lamb of God it would be totally wrong to worship Jesus as God.

The way these stories have been twisted and made into a religion is nothing short of utter insanity.

And today Christains use Jesus to judge other?

What blaspheme!

How dare they!

Especially when their digging up all their material for judgment from the Old Testament.

Yes, I could appreciate Jesus (if he actually existed as a moral man), but even if he was the sacrifical lamb of God, which I don't personally believe, the religion that grew out of that has been so twisted that it has become the antithesis of anything the stories could possibly mean anyway.

So yes, I hate Christianity as a religion in the same way that I hate cancer. Christianity is just cancer of the spirit.

Skeptics are generally highly intelligent people. You always want to have a skeptic or two around. Otherwise people run around making a lot of bullsh1t claims.

wow, and I thought I had everything by Johnny Cash

Its really expensive.

I believe in a "higher power", or God as I see it (as a force or being...not a man). I DO NOT believe in a God striking down anyone who does not believe in his son. The God I believe in is too loving, caring, forgiving, and understanding, to send my soul to burn forever in a bad place...simply because I don't repent and accept Jesus.

I'm sorry. I just don't buy it.

Many atheists are skeptics. I certainly accept both of those labels at this point.

I’m with you on that. I don’t buy it either. I tend to imagine that even if this turns out to be legit (which I find to be very doubtful) then he might actually be quite understanding of those that questioned his existence and/or his son's existence.

He might even respect that view.

After all, what did we have to go on while alive on earth except a contradictory, confusing book written by some agenda driven men.

I hear ya Krimsa.


Does this make me an "atheist"? Or more "agnostic"? Me not believing in the biblical sense of God.

I believe that would be more agnostic. . .

You are only atheist if you flat out don’t believe in god at all. Not just the Christian interpretation of god but ANY God or Goddess.

If you simply say, I don’t know but at the same time don’t observe any god or Goddess, then you are an Agnostic.

If you believe in ANY concept of a divine creator or a God/Goddess or both, then you are not an Atheist or an Agnostic.

If you believe in more than one god, then you are polytheist

I just tell people I'm non-religious...spiritual.

1. Many of the arguments you use are logically flawed and would be considered unacceptable, however, you should combine them with other ideas and not really solely on a flawed argument.
2. My experience is that belief in g-d is based more on individual phemononological experience. For example, "when I was down I gave myself to such and such g-d and he changed me" or "g-d was a part of my childhood growing up, church, praying,reading scripture, saying grace, etc. and it brings me much comfort and joy."
Etc.

Neither.

An atheist is merely the lack of belief in a god, agnostic is the belief that it is unknowable, you can believe in god and believe its unknowable and be an agnostic theist, or you could be an agnostic atheist. I would say I am the later.



If you have a concept of god, and believe it to be true, you are probably either a theist, deist, pagan ect.

I guess spiritualist if you just believe in some kind of universal subconscious mind ect, I have heard that one before also.

Sometimes there isn’t really a definite term for people's beliefs either. I find a lot of us fall into that category. I usually say "spiritual" non religious also.