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HABERMAS: Once you mentioned to me that your view might be called Deism. Do you think that would be a fair designation? FLEW: Yes, absolutely right. What Deists, such as the Mr. Jefferson who drafted the American Declaration of Independence, believed was that, while reason, mainly in the form of arguments to design, assures us that there is a God, there is no room either for any supernatural revelation of that God or for any transactions between that God and individual human beings. You really can't use Flew to argue that the bible is the word of god, since he doesn't believe in the bible himself. I havent tried to. |
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Smiless? ERASE all that negativity you have been hearing on this forum about God and the Bible..... and go Read the Bible and find out the Truth for yourself . Love you , my friend...gotta run now.  You are telling me to erase history? You are telling me to erase eyewitnesses of what Christianity had done to them and their elders and their people. I have a seminole native indian friend who is 97 years old and tells me the accounts of what he suffered and of his father because of christianity. Reading the bible is the last thing I will do. There are much more peaceful and interesting books to read that have less negativity in it. The truth of the bible is the truth of the atrocities of the world. One who follow its faith page by page hurt and destroy lives and not perserve it, especially those in power. It is your decision to put a blind eye on history, or on other religious practices, and lifestyles that deem to be much more peaceful to mankind. If that is the choice you choose then so be it, but I choose not to be blind. I suggest you study Buddhism for beginners. You never judge a philosophy by its abuse. |
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I am not going to respond to posts concerning my argument, it would take to long. I will give reasons for my premises. 1. All designs imply a designer. 2. There is great design in the Universe. 3. Therefore, there must be a Great Designer "God makes sense of the complex order in the universe. During the last 30 years, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a delicate and complex balance of initial conditions simply given in the Big Bang itself. We now know that life–prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life–permitting universe like ours. How much more probable? 12. Well, the answer is that the chances that the universe should be life–permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable. For example, Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re–collapsed into a hot fireball.{5} P.C.W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes, at least.{6} [He also] estimates that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by only one part in 10 raised to the 100th power would have prevented a life–permitting universe.{7} There are around 50 such constants and quantities present in the Big Bang which must be fine–tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. And it's not just each quantity which must be finely tuned; their ratios to each other must also be exquisitely finely tuned. So improbability is multiplied by improbability by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers. 13. There is no physical reason why these constants and quantities should posses the values they do. The one–time agnostic physicist P.C. W. Davies comments, "Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact."{8} Similarly, Fred Hoyle remarks, "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super–intellect has monkeyed with physics."{9} Robert Jastrow, the head of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, calls this the most powerful evidence for the existence of God ever to come out of science.{10} 14. So, once again, the view that Christian theists have always held, that there is an intelligent Designer of the universe, seems to make much more sense than the atheistic interpretation that the universe, when it popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, just happened to be, by chance, fine–tuned for intelligent life with an incomprehensible precision and delicacy." The evidence for the supernatural is so overwhelming that the leading defender of atheism and intellectual philosopher, Tony Flew. For the past sixty years he has been the top defender of atheism, up there with the ranks of Bertrand Russel, has recently become a believer in the supernatural. Christian Theist are not the only system/religion that believes this. Please give it a break. What a petty God you follow that excludes all but you. Sounds more like a High School Cliche Thank you enderra, what is your worldview |
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I am not going to respond to posts concerning my argument, it would take to long. I will give reasons for my premises. 1. All designs imply a designer. 2. There is great design in the Universe. 3. Therefore, there must be a Great Designer "God makes sense of the complex order in the universe. During the last 30 years, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a delicate and complex balance of initial conditions simply given in the Big Bang itself. We now know that life–prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life–permitting universe like ours. How much more probable? 12. Well, the answer is that the chances that the universe should be life–permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable. For example, Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re–collapsed into a hot fireball.{5} P.C.W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes, at least.{6} [He also] estimates that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by only one part in 10 raised to the 100th power would have prevented a life–permitting universe.{7} There are around 50 such constants and quantities present in the Big Bang which must be fine–tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. And it's not just each quantity which must be finely tuned; their ratios to each other must also be exquisitely finely tuned. So improbability is multiplied by improbability by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers. 13. There is no physical reason why these constants and quantities should posses the values they do. The one–time agnostic physicist P.C. W. Davies comments, "Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact."{8} Similarly, Fred Hoyle remarks, "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super–intellect has monkeyed with physics."{9} Robert Jastrow, the head of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, calls this the most powerful evidence for the existence of God ever to come out of science.{10} 14. So, once again, the view that Christian theists have always held, that there is an intelligent Designer of the universe, seems to make much more sense than the atheistic interpretation that the universe, when it popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, just happened to be, by chance, fine–tuned for intelligent life with an incomprehensible precision and delicacy." The evidence for the supernatural is so overwhelming that the leading defender of atheism and intellectual philosopher, Tony Flew. For the past sixty years he has been the top defender of atheism, up there with the ranks of Bertrand Russel, has recently become a believer in the supernatural. Your logic is so flawed you do more harm to your argument than benefit. There are many logic arguments in favor of intelligent design, and I would enjoy debating those, but unfortunately I have seen none of them, not have seen that you have any grasp of the fundamentals of logic. I recommend you do a little more study of debate, logical reasoning and the arguments that fit the former, then come back and try again. When you do so you may have to reevaluate your beliefs or may have a more firm grasp and why continue to believe what you do. WHere is my logic flawed Thomas? |
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I am not going to respond to posts concerning my argument, it would take to long. I will give reasons for my premises.
1. All designs imply a designer. 2. There is great design in the Universe. 3. Therefore, there must be a Great Designer "God makes sense of the complex order in the universe. During the last 30 years, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a delicate and complex balance of initial conditions simply given in the Big Bang itself. We now know that life–prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life–permitting universe like ours. How much more probable? 12. Well, the answer is that the chances that the universe should be life–permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable. For example, Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re–collapsed into a hot fireball.{5} P.C.W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes, at least.{6} [He also] estimates that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by only one part in 10 raised to the 100th power would have prevented a life–permitting universe.{7} There are around 50 such constants and quantities present in the Big Bang which must be fine–tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. And it's not just each quantity which must be finely tuned; their ratios to each other must also be exquisitely finely tuned. So improbability is multiplied by improbability by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers. 13. There is no physical reason why these constants and quantities should posses the values they do. The one–time agnostic physicist P.C. W. Davies comments, "Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact."{8} Similarly, Fred Hoyle remarks, "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super–intellect has monkeyed with physics."{9} Robert Jastrow, the head of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, calls this the most powerful evidence for the existence of God ever to come out of science.{10} 14. So, once again, the view that Christian theists have always held, that there is an intelligent Designer of the universe, seems to make much more sense than the atheistic interpretation that the universe, when it popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, just happened to be, by chance, fine–tuned for intelligent life with an incomprehensible precision and delicacy." The evidence for the supernatural is so overwhelming that the leading defender of atheism and intellectual philosopher, Tony Flew. For the past sixty years he has been the top defender of atheism, up there with the ranks of Bertrand Russel, has recently become a believer in the supernatural. |
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1. God exists
2. THe New Testament is a historically reliable document 3. Miracles are possible. 4. Miracles confirm Jesus claim to be God. 5. What ever God teaches is true 6. Jesus taught that the bible is the word of God by confirming the old testament and promising the New Testament. 7. Therefore the bible is the word of God. I would like to here your objections to my argument. If these six premises are true then the conclusion logically follows. |
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Topic:
proof
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Ink, most theist do not understand circumstantial evidence. Of course, the complete irony here, is they believe that circumstantial evidence as true, while being skeptical about all the evidence for evolution... I have no problem with evolution. |
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Topic:
proof
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I can guarantee with 100% certainty that no one in this thread is living the way Jesus asked his followers to live. (that is of course if he existed at all) Jesus called for his followers to give away all there wordy possessions. He said that his true followers could consume poisons and survive. Drink a fatal dose of poison under double blinded scientific scrutiny and if you pass the Jesus test I will convert on the spot. To some he called to give away all worldly possessions, then follow him, not all believer are called to this. Its important to remember who Jesus is speaking to. Concerning drinking poison and living, there is evidence I believe this statement was not in the original text of Mark. |
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Topic:
proof
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"Fact #2: On the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his women followers. According to Jakob Kremer, an Austrian specialist on the resurrection, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb."{16} As D. H. van Daalen points out, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."" This is utterly ridiculous in the face of what the Bible actually says. Matthew 27: [49] The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. [50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. [51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. According to Matthew there was an earthquake and many graves were opened and many saints were also resurrected at the same time and went into the holy city and appeared to many. So if we give the words of Matthew any credence there were many graves that opened at the same time and many bodies ressurected into zombies. The problem is that either the book is true or it isn't. If we need to pick and choose which parts of it we'd like to believe and reject the rest then we're just fooling ourselves. The FACT is that the gospels don't even agree with each other in the details and thus leave us no choice but to make up our own stories. And that's a FACT that you can take to the bank. We are not debating the inerrency of Matthew. We are debating the existence of Christ. I presented four facts that prove not only that Christ existed, but that he rose from the dead. |
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Topic:
proof
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"Fact #1: After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in the tomb. This fact is highly significant because it means that the location of Jesus’s tomb was known to Jew and Christian alike. In that case it becomes inexplicable how belief in his resurrection could arise and flourish in the face of a tomb containing his corpse. According to the late John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge University, the honorable burial of Jesus is one of "the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus.""
"Fact #2: On the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his women followers. According to Jakob Kremer, an Austrian specialist on the resurrection, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb."{16} As D. H. van Daalen points out, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."" "Fact #3: On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. This is a fact that is almost universally acknowledged among New Testament scholars today. Even Gert Lüdemann, perhaps the most prominent current critic of the resurrection, admits, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ."" Finally, fact #4: The original disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every reason not to. Despite having every predisposition to the contrary, it is an undeniable fact of history that the original disciples believed in, proclaimed, and were willing to go to their deaths for the fact of Jesus’s resurrection. C. F. D. Moule of Cambridge University concludes that we have here a belief which nothing in terms of prior historical influences can account for--apart from the resurrection itself.{19} |
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Topic:
proof
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"This doesn’t mean that there aren’t sources outside the Bible which refer to Jesus. There are. He’s referred to in pagan, Jewish, and Christian writings outside the New Testament. The Jewish historian Josephus is especially interesting. In the pages of his works you can read about New Testament people like the high priests Annas and Caiaphas, the Roman governor Pontius Pilate, King Herod, John the Baptist, even Jesus himself and his brother James. There have also been interesting archaeological discoveries as well bearing on the gospels. For example, in 1961 the first archaeological evidence concerning Pilate was unearthed in the town of Caesarea; it was an inscription of a dedication bearing Pilate’s name and title. Even more recently, in 1990 the actual tomb of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over Jesus’s trial, was discovered south of Jerusalem. Indeed, the tomb beneath the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is in all probability the tomb in which Jesus himself was laid by Joseph of Arimathea following the crucifixion. According to Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University,
Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death." |
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Topic:
proof
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Oct. 1, 2008 -- A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.
If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world. The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by French epigrapher and professor emeritus Andre Bernand as meaning either, "by Christ the magician" or "the magician by Christ." "It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said. Related Content: Discovery News blog: Archaeorama How Stuff Works: Was Jesus Really Born on December 25? Jesus Tomb Believed Found He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located. Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, thinks a "magus" could have practiced fortune-telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Mathew in the Bible refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world. According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual. "It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals." Next »21« Previous |
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yeah it's pretty obvious the story of Jesus is just a plagiarizeing of other stories before. the Jesus story is nothing realy all the special. No scholar today would except your conclusion. |
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Topic:
good and evil
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Good and evil donot exist outside of God.
Does Thomas J call it wrong when some one steals from him. |
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Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?   Paul is referring to custom but your right Jesus most likely had shorter hair. |
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Topic:
smoking
Edited by
Nubby
on
Wed 03/18/09 09:24 PM
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Smoking is a sin but you wont be damned because of it. Charles Spurgeon smoked a pipe. C.S. Lewis never gave up smoking. These were both great men of God, used by God powerfully.
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Edited by
Nubby
on
Wed 03/18/09 05:46 AM
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If I may interject and boy did a lot of Catholic Priests chock when I asked them this, If Judas was an apostle why was his scripture left out of the bible? Some dared try to tell me there was not one because he was condemned to die by God for betraying Jesus. I then asked if God condemned him why was he grief stricken and hung himself out of guilt? Then I asked: if Jesus had to die as part of god's plan and Judas was compelled by god as we are taught to believe then how could God condemn a man for doing what God wanted him to do? Again the priests all fell back on their patented answer that the Church condemned Judas. Then came the next obvious question: Who is the church to make judgment on a man acting by God's will even if he was doing it against his will because God wanted it? is that not committing a sin of the most grievous nature condemning a man when God is supposed to be the judge? Answer: Because the church speaks for God. My reply? "Call god here now to tell me to my face you are my judges! You are sinners of the worst degree! you do not speak in God's name. The Bible never gave you that authority!" I was shortly asked to leave the school I was attending because I was "emotionally disturbed." I later found out after I had managed to confirm there actually was a scripture according to Judas and it painted a very different picture of Jesus and made him out to be just a man with a very noble ideal that had a relationship with Mary and may have even had a family. it also painted Mary as another Apostle and that Jesus had several others, men and women. The Divincci Code just used it as a clever device to explain the plot. The real one on the other hand just came to light in the form of a copy of it in Greek. So far the information coming from it has the Church twisting in its socks right now. There is omitted information from people close to Jesus that does not coincide with the lies the church has propagated all these years. it is so easy to use pretty words and so called authorities to write books and people accept them as fact irregardless of the source. look at Scientology. It is an utter load of crap yet people buy it like it was gospel fact and live their lives by it. It goes with my hypothesis is that man is at a point in evolution where we have to decide to be sheep or wolves and so far there can be no balance between the two other than a precarious one. Sheep need something to follow and guide them. The church has its Judas Goat in the form of the bible playing on fear and deception. Wolves do not follow for the sake of following. The demand strong leadership and do not follow any pack. Some are loners and others prefer small groups. I think myself man will make the next great leap in evolution when we learn to find balance in our natures and intellects that does not conflict with common sense and compassion for our world and each other. If we make contact with an extra terrestrial intelligence now there is a chance we will start a war thanks to religious fanaticism and get our asses ROYALLY handed to us thanks to a few nutcases among us who cannot look past their rose colored glasses to see there is FAR more to this picture than human ethnocentrism and misogynistic agenda. Judas never wrote any scripture because he was never was inspired by God. Being an apostle did not mean becoming part of the New Testament. God forknew Judas would betray him, so he predestined him to do so. The same is true with Pharoah. Scripture gives the church authority to act in certain situations. The gospel of Judas was not written by Judas. It is knostic and was written much later. |
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Isn't it pretty telling that these sort of verses are never quoted by people who proselytize with vigor? I have to wonder if they don't cherry pick and then when the fruit is found to have some pretty hard pits, they rationalize those away, too. "A rose wouldn't be as beautiful without the thorns" and other somesuch rambling pseudo profundity. After many such contradictions, some folks just come to the realization on their own that these texts have human fallibility written all over them. -Kerry O. Christ was controversial, I will not run from that. It is important that you understand the context with which Christ spoke. The renowned greek and New Testament scholar John A.T. Robertson at cambridge University says this. Hateth not (ou misei). An old and very strong verb misew, to hate, detest. The orientals use strong language where cooler spirits would speak of preference or indifference. But even so Jesus does not here mean that one must hate his father or mother of necessity or as such, for Matthew 15:4 proves the opposite. It is only where the element of choice comes in (cf. Matthew 6:24 ) as it sometimes does, when father or mother opposes Christ. Then one must not hesitate. The language here is more sharply put than in Matthew 10:37 . The ou here coalesces with the verb misei in this conditional clause of the first class determined as fulfilled. It is the language of exaggerated contrast, it is true, but it must not be watered down till the point is gone. In mentioning "and wife" Jesus has really made a comment on the excuse given in verse Matthew 20 (I married a wife and so I am not able to come). And his own life also (eti te kai thn psuchn eautou). Note te kai, both--and. "The te (B L) binds all the particulars into one bundle of renuncianda" (Bruce). Note this same triple group of conjunctions (eti te kai) in Acts 21:28 , "And moreover also," "even going as far as his own life." Martyrdom should be an ever-present possibility to the Christian, not to be courted, but not to be shunned. Love for Christ takes precedence "over even the elemental instinct of self-preservation" (Ragg). |
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Jesus was controversial. A bruised reed he would not break, but on one occasion he asked the pharisees how they expected to escape the damnation of hell. No one ever spoke such hot scorching words against sin. As Josephus says, he was a doer of wonderful deeds. He did not claim to speak on his own behalf, but he claimed to be equal with the father of whom he spoke. He spoke with authority,"not what they say, but what I say unto you".
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It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words. How many pictures are these words worth? "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB) "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26) "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36 NASB) Um, there was an urgency with which Christ said many of these words. What was about to happen to the church was devasting. A wave of persecution was about to break out and only those who were deeply commited would not lose there faith. Following would mean losing everything. It meant being rejected by your family because you now follow the Christ. Losing aunts and uncles and brothers and sisters. This was a much different time. The context of the matthew is different than you and I might expect. Its in comparison to how much we love Christ. Christ calls us to a pure devotion |
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