What you are attempting to do right now is referred to as "leading the witness". I have seen this take place in court many times.

You will need to do better than that.

I cant really see honestly how Adolph Hitler was not acting directly in accordance with a Christian ideology.

And I clarified that for you. When given the choice - he was not. He might have considered himself a Catholic in his book - but he was no more one than Buddah was. He was never a Christian.

You are what you do - not what you claim.

Then no one is . . . I have never seen anyone follow all the laws of the bible, OR even the new testament. I know FAR more about the bible then you think Eljay I just see no purpose in discussing it here on this topic.

Examples of what you would have to do to follow Jesus's laws.

Lust well hell better gouge out those eyes . . . . Theft, well better cut off those hands.

Love thy enemy . . . YEA RIGHT, if you loved your enemy you could NEVER kill them. (you can argue all you want that this isn't true, but I will not agree with you so don't waste your breath, I love my mom and would die before killing her for any reason)

Money . . . well better give it all away. Each christian denomination and even more granular then that, each individual Christian chooses what laws, edicts ect that they follow and that they do not follow. This fact is easily demonstrated. So there is no such things as Christians, Gotcha. I seriously don't know why Hitler is even brought up in these conversations, its a completely intellectually bankrupt argument when placed in parallel to the real issues between ID and evolution and each of the arguments for there validation.

Eljay your logic (if that's what YOU call it) is flawed and to be honest really almost non existent.

If you really want to talk about ID. Then you tell me something that is irreducibly complex . . then we can talk about it. Otherwise all of this is just a bunch of rhetoric on both sides. Without details we are just huffing and puffing about nothing.

Science . . . your position (it would seem) is that ID is science and should be taught in science class.

So lets hit this from a scientific perspective. Give me your hypothesis with examples, and a conclusion as to why you are right, then we can talk.

As far as Hitler being a Christian: All Christians are expected to sin, it's part of being human. But willfully sinning is a cause for a Christian to be expelled from the church. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul commands that a particular believer be expelled from the church in Corinth, because he was sleeping with his father's wife (probably not the same wife as his mother, but that doesn't make it any better). Christians are to be forgiving and loving to all, but some sins are so willful and outside of the boundaries of the normal human experience that they call for drastic action. One can expect a normal Christian to be greedy or mean or sexually active and these sins can be overlooked by the church, but having sex with your mother or killing Jews cannot be overlooked.

I almost missed this because it was thrown in there as an after thought to Jeremy's post.

Look, the only reason I pointed out that Adolph Hitler was a Catholic was because it appeared that someone was trying to say that he wasn't. That is not based in reality. I dont really care if you dont want to openly accept that Hitler was a Catholic now. What difference does that make? The damage is done.

Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

Im not sure that Hitler's level of understanding of the bible was relevant to the end result? Just about every Christian on this forum has their own misinterpretation of the scripture yet most all of them seem to feel that their version is correct and the rest are wrong.

That's because it was a rebuttal to his premise that all Christians are sinners and therefore Hitler was a Christian.

The preceding three points were rebuttals to specific examples made by "Bushidobillyclub", while the final paragraph was a rebuttal to that line of reasoning.

This is all to explain why I posted that paragraph, because you seemed confused as to why it was in my reply to "Bushidobillyclub".



I think any reasonable party would agree that Hitler presented himself as a Christian in public, while reviling Christianity in private. His words and quotes from his subordinates make his true feelings about Christianity obvious.

Im not sure that Hitler's level of understanding of the bible was relevant to the end result? Just about every Christian on this forum has their own misinterpretation of the scripture yet most all of them seem to feel that their version is correct and the rest are wrong.

You must be confused, I didn't bring up Hitler, my response was to Eljay saying that Hilter was not a Christian because he didn't walk the walk, my point was Ive never met a Christian who walked the walk. Your point was my point about what the walk is was wrong IN YOUR INTERPRETATION. There are 38,000 Christian denominations and if each of you do not want to admit that the other is a "real" Christian that is not my problem, nor is it really applicable to this topic which was my REAL point.

That was my point, I used my knowledge of the book to point it out, you can argue that but so can every other denomination. (38,000+ denominations, I wonder how many agree with you . . .)

The very fact that you claim your god head uses hyperbole and metaphor means to me that he cannot be relied on to lay it out straight, and just like all mystics throughout the ages, he earned his keep by being ambiguous . . .

Hitler was a Catholic.

I dont blame Christians of today for not wanting to claim him, yet he was.

Lets get back to ID.

Finally, we agree!

Hitler was a Catholic. (as in past tense)

At some point he broke with Catholicism in his personal beliefs, but continued to use Catholicism to control Catholics who were also racists.

That's the last I have to say on this subject, I hate repeating myself.