DD there is no reason to be so hostile. you are entitled to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. As for evidence....I do not accept the willing martyrdom of the followers of Christ as proof. I see people of different faiths willing to die for their beliefs and they can't all be true of there is only one truth.

Anybody? At a time when only 3% of the people were literate there is no way just anybody could have written the 66 books of the current cannonization of the Bible, dont be ridiculous.
The fact remains that Jesus was a literal person, not a myth like superman. Also, the stories we are talking about (miracles) were circulating undisputed in his own lifetime. He was famous for doing miracles even among the romans.
Furthermore this evidence is supported by many eyewitness accounts of his ressurection by notable people who are famous in history and whose reputations are above reproach. So if you have some new evidence Im all ears, but otherwise you are opposing history if you say there was no ressurection.

I'm sure now that you have been there and witnessed it yourself.
Of course not anybody could write. But those who could were the ones to corrupt the masses for their own purpose.
But let us call it quits.
You will never convince me because I don't believe it, and I will never convince you because you do.
So there is no reason to bite the head of me, or of anyone else for that matter.

DD, I agree with you that Jesus was a real person and I believe he performed many miracles while here on earth. Let's say for arguments sake that he did manage to rise from the dead. What's your point?

My point is that if he rose from the dead then all the things about christians being serial killers(and Im talking about abaracadabras post) is nothing more then a personal attack on christians, whom he all lumps together as if we are all one group responsible for all of the evil in the world (and I dont think Im exaggerating when I say that). If he rose from the dead, then we should be listening to him, and that is the reason that the Bible is the most popular book in history.

If you understand how many people have been killed in the name of Christianity then you are saying it was not murder because Jesus rose from the dead?

Absolutely.

And the people who wrote those stories enforced them with the threat of harm or death to anyone who dared to question their writings.

Clearly this was a religion that was forced onto the masses via the sword.

Why anyone would believe that the creator of this universe would be associated with such hostility is beyond me.

DD, no offense to what you wish to believe, but if you have convinced yourself that this is historical fact you're truly kidding yourself.

To believe in the story of Jesus as written in the Bible is entirely a faith based journey. You must want to believe it on pure faith. There is no proof of anything.

I also agree with you that it is highly likely that a man named Jesus (or some name) did live, and teach peace and love, and was indeed murdered for it in a very horrid and public way.

Precisely how he was killed and who did it, it's hard to say for sure. Clearly the people who wrote the gospels wanted to pin it on the Romans.

However, it's a moot point anyway. According to the the story it was God's will to send his son to be butchered by humans. That was the whole idea behind Jesus being God's sacrifcial lamb.

Therefore whoever nailed Jesus to the pole was doing God's WILL! According to the story this is what God WANTED!

That's what he sent Jesus to do supposedly.

I've given you my reasons why I don't beleive any of it. Jesus didn't even agree with the God of Abraham, and the God of Abraham would have needed to have been an idiot to tell people to murder blasphemists and then send his son to those very same people in mortal form claiming to be God.

I could give you a myriad of reason why I don't even beleive the Old Testament alone could possibly have been the word of the divine creator of this universe.

But the OP of this thread wanted to know why the Bible has so much 'merit'.

My answer to that question is that it has no merit at all. It was simply shoved down the throats of the masses via threats, mass murderings, burning people at the stake, running natives off their homeland and converting them to Christianity, enslaving people to pick cotten and then converting them to Christianity.


It's only popular because the mass murderers of the world shoved it down everyone else's throat and killed anyone who refused to swallow it.

It has no 'merit' at all.

It's also a very negative picture of both God and humanity.

You never answered my question?

Why would you want to believe in such a negative picture of God and humanity?

Also I sincerely put to you this next question:

If you discovered that the Bible was a totally fabricated lie, how would you react?

Would you be happy or sad?

Personally, I feel that would be the greatest news I can imagine. It would mean that it's a lie that mankind fell from grace from God, and it would also mean that it's a lie that Jesus had to die because we are pathetic losers.

Can you imagine better news?

If the Biblical account of God and humanity is true, then we are truly a pathetic species to be sure. We should hang our heads in grave shame and there's nothing to be happy about. Even if Jesus had come and saved our pathetic butts, that wouldn't change the fact that we're pathetically unworthy of our creator.

The Bible is a horror story no matter how you look at it. There is no reason I can imagine why anyone should want that story to be true. It's a story about being saved because we were unworthy of saving ourselves.

It's truly the most pathetic story of a relationship between a God and humanity that I can imagine. It's a totally negative story.

Wouldn't you be just thrilled to death to discover that it was all just a lie made up by male-chauvinistic controlling mortal men?

I'm totally convinced that this is precisely what it is, and I could give you a myriad of reasons why I believe that to be the case.

I can't give you a single solitary reason why I should believe it. It's not even a self-consistent story. It's about a God that can't even forgive unless he is appeased by a blood sacrifice (even if that blood sacrifice is his own son). It's just Greek Mythology in a slightly different guise.

It's not a pretty story at all. Of either mankind or God.

What's pretty about it?

And if it's not a pretty story, then why choose to believe it on pure faith?

I think you should do what Jesus said even if he didn't rise from the dead.

Why should that be important to you?

But do what Jesus Said don't be rooting around in the Old Testament to find reasons to be bigoted and hateful toward people and then abuse Jesus name by claiming that he supported that crap.

For example. Jesus never said one word about same-gender love. Period.

Yet the Christians are totally up in arms about same-gender love becuase they ignore Jesus (who told them not so judge others) and then go digging around through the dirt in the Old Testament to find reasons to be bigoted and judgmental against same-gender love.

If you actually listen to the teachings of Jesus and compare them with the teachings of Buddha you'll quickly discover that it's impossible to do what either one of these men taught without simultaneously satisfying what the other man said.

It's a farce to believe that Jesus demanded that anyone believe that he was God. He never demanded any such thing!

If you follow the teachings of Jesus, then you follow the teachings of Buddha, and vice versa.

They both taught the same things.

I believe in Jesus in the same way that I believe in Buddha. Neither rose from the dead, and neither was God (or both were God if you understand and believe in pantheisim).

The problem with Christians is that they abuse Jesus and use him as an excuse to dredge up the horrible bigoted crap of the Old Testament to judge other people with and they do this in the name of Jesus even though Jesus taught not to judge others.

Christianity is the most hypocritical religion ever invented by mankind.

If you want to believe in Jesus rip the Bible in half. Toss out the Old Testament, and just do the things that Jesus actually taught.

Or just become a Buddhist (that's probably better since it's not corrupted by the Old Testament)

The problem with the Jesus story is that if you actually do believe that Jesus died to pay for your sins, then you have no choice but to also believe in the God of Abraham who lusts for blood sacrifices before he can forgive. Then you find yourself rooting around in the Old Testament and using the name of Jesus to support all the bigoted and male-chaunvinist garbage of that horrid mythology.

Also think about this,...

I accept the teachings of Jesus even believing that he was a mere mortal man.

Can you say as much?

Or would you reject Jesus if he was just a mere mortal man?

Who loves Jesus more?

Those who are only interested in his gift of eternal life? Or those who accept him as a mortal man?

You tell me?

What physical proof is there that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence?

We only know he wrote it because of the testamonies of his contemporaries. Same with Homer having written the Iliad - or anything written by Shakespeare.

What's your point?

Boy, I just got home from work and Im wondering where I should start. Ruth first since she was first; Ruth, a great many people have been murdered in the name of religion as you have said, according to those who tell history. However if you investigate you will find that the motive was more likely greed, money and power with religion being the excuse. So what are you saying? That because of this, Jesus couldnt have risen from the dead? Or that those murderers whom you described speak for all believers? Are we all killers and acompalices?

Now abaracadabra; I reject your response that Jesus never claimed to be GOD, fact is that is the reason he was executed; for blasphemy(claiming to be GOD). Not that you care, but here are some of the verses; John 10,vs30, and 17vs21 same book. There are others, but these are enough for now. He did claim to be GOD. Now if you admit that he was here but you question everything else about him, then the burden of proof (that he didnt claim to be GOD, rise from the dead, heal the sick) is on you. If he was here, and you accept some of his teachings while rejecting others, then you are making it up to suit your own personal religion. In this day and age that is common, everyday, like a commercial on tv.

Now abaracadabra; I dont accept everything about Islam but I would never attack them with the virulence that you attack christians, (as a united group who agree on everything) because that would be bigoted and cowardly. Also, even if you present yourself as a man of education you are not the final authority on this subject, so when you say that christians are "serial killers" and that we kill everyone who doesnt accept the Bible, I reject this as a cowardly attack.

Christians also were killed...even were fed to the lions back then...

christians were persecuted then..

and are persecuted now....

all in the Name of Religion....

not in the Name of God.

Point is, when God is taken out of the equasion, there is all evil and darkness and hate....

and just.....religion.

God hates Religion too.


God is Love.

When God's Love and Light Shines thru... evil and darkness flees.

Morningsong you are a breath of fresh air.

You can call me a coward until you turn blue in the face DDejon, that's just a personal attack.

Have I made a personal attack against you?

I spoke to the issue of history. Period.

Christianity is the most blood-soaked religion mankind has ever created. That's a fact.

Talk about cowards. The Christians were so cowardly they were scared to to death to allow anyone else the freedom to believe in anything other than their bigoted faith.

I was just addressing the issue of the thread.

The Bible has no merit. It's only popular because the people who pushed it had no reservations about murdering anyone who refused to accepted it.

That a cowardly religion.

And you have the audacity to call me a coward for pointing out that TRUTH?

Face it, Christianity has historically been a cowardly religion adn continues to be cowardly today.

Christians are scared to death of science and the fact that we evolved from monkeys. They are too cowardly to own up to the truth.

They'd rather believe that they failed their creator to the point where he had to have his son nailed to a pole to save their worthless pathetic butts than to believe that they might have evolved from monkeys.

Abra.....

GOD HIMSELF(thru His Son Jesus) ....

WILLINGLY took our place on that cross, Abra!!!!!

Jesus did not HAVE to die on that cross for us, Abra.....

He could have called 10000 angels to rescue Him....but He did not.

God did that out of His GREAT LOVE FOR US!!

And by taking our place on that cross so we would not have to.....

God now made a way (thru what His Son did on that cross for us all)....

God now made a Way
for us
to come back into Fellowship with God....ONCE MORE.

Jesus is the ONE who closes the gap between man and God, Abra.

JESUS is THE ONLY WAY BACK to GOD.....

Whereby Man

Can Now Have Fellowship with God Once more....

as it was in the

Beginning.....before the Fall.

Well if that's true then I'm on the right path because I go directly to God.

I pray to Her directly. No religion involved. In fact, I'm very close to Her.

In fact I wrote Her a song just the other day.


SONG OF THE GODDESS



You are the Great Mother Spirit
Omniscient in all of Nature
You are the feminine
You are the yin

You are the giver of life
The Mother of creation
The ethereal wisdom in the wind
Your grace flows in the waters
Your love glistens as moonlight

You light up my night
and show me the cosmic wonders
Your lunar globe guides my path
Its waxing and waning directs my deeds

You are the healer of wounds
and the restorer of the soul
Your infinite patience is only eclipsed
by your eternal flowing love

I cherish the gift of life
that you have bequeathed to me
I extol your sacred presence
now and forevermore

Namaste

~~~


See MorningSong. No religion.

Just God.

But MorningSong, now your back to talking about religion.

Can't you make up your mind?

I thought you said that God hates religion?

I can see that your true colors are coming out. I did insinuate without saying it that you were a coward, because you insinuate without saying it that I, and all other christians (as if we all agree on everything) are murderers who kill everyone who doesnt get with the program. You claim that history is on your side but you only tell one side of history, your side. I dont care what you think, but you are attacking strangers (you dont know any of us) from a safe position and I find that cowardly.

I never said anything about you personally. I spoke to the history of a religion.

If you took it personally that's your problem, not mine.

If you disagree with the behavior of a religious body of people then why do you affiliate yourself with it and lend your support to it?