man does not have the ability to be righteous while wearing this flesh my lady, ayone who thinks they are capable of being sinless or in your case wrong is crazy -

it may, but not as well. But you can use Aardvark for all i care, as long as i understand what your trying to get across -

To be human IS to experience/live in so-called "sin".

Like I've beleaguered before... the human experience IS like the fall from "Grace"... by design.

Just my fragment/opinion.

well glue all your fragments together and give me your whole story my lady.

I'm still unglued.

Can't be defined or I'll freeze in time.

I'm a patient guy i can wait - you've got 5 min to tell me -

5 minutes?

What about MY needs?!

discussion continued

Eljays last response:

I think we diverge on the idea of "responsibility" and who is accountable for it. Perhaps too - the concept of sin. You percieve sin as a quantifiable entity, whereas I see it as non-rightiousness. The absense of something rather than the measure of something. It then follows that God gets blamed for the short comings of man. I don't agree with this Pantheistic thought - as God is God, and Man is man. We are the creation, he is the creator. It is contrary to the biblical concept of God to equate the thoughts and actions of man to that of God, thereby reducing God's nature to that of man. This is man attempting to convince himself he knows the mind of God. Something the bible is quite exact on predicting that man would do. Doesn't this only reinforce the prophecy and validity of the text? Peter's second letter was devoted to this very subject. Just as you stated in an earlier post on another thread - the times they are a changing. Have we not seen from the time of our youth till now the overwhealming attempt of man to degrade and even dismiss God. I even see posts that claim that Hitler's final solution was due to his being a christian. Revising history to support the degrading of God. And with each generation, I find that fewer and fewer even bother to read the bible before they've formulated an opinion about it, and once having done that, they then use the text itself to support their pretext that God is less than he claims to be in the very text they are refering to. And this passes for sound reasoning?

TRIBO REPLY:

sorry my friend, my point remains the same - but i wil say that i don't concider myself to be an all knowing all powerful god, i also have no problem with his destruction to acheive his purposes or any of the other things spoken of - my point is simple - god brought about all that is or will ever be - whether you are convinced of his reasons to do as he as done is inconsequential, the fact remains had he not brought forth his plan as he did - sin would not have entered the picture and therefore no fall from grace, the plot was his, the outcome is his - he is without a doubt to be held resposible for all that did, is ,will take place, there is no way around it.



ELJAY:

But I digress. Forgive me.

I think to consider God to be anything less than rightious, Just, and the source of all truth and wisdom - is creating a new God, which to me - does not exist. So I often stand in full agreement with those who say that God does not exist, because once they proceed to describe the God they understand, it is quite evident that - that God does not exist; for the description always falls short of the testamony of those who describe to us the historical God to which they witnessed, who is refered to as the creator, and the source of all which is good. so rather than do the exegesis on who and what God is, they establish a presumption of the biblical God, and then proceed to refute it. If that isn't a logical fallacy, I don't know what is.


A logical fallacy to me is that someone takes the writings of others and claims them to be god's. without any further proof to back it up except whats written down. oh i forgot you have your personal expieriences to witness to these truths you hold so dear. but you wont even concider that all that has happened to you personally could have happened if you knew nothing of what you ""feel"" is/was because of god? i donot beieve in things just because they affect me in some emotional way as to make me believe they are so whether of god or anything religious. to me that's a sorry way to determine anything, feelings lie, so does the heart, and so does the mind as well as senses. to base hard truths on such to me is self deception, no matter what god you may beleive in or what religious take you may have.

see there thinking of yourself again, you selfish wench you - no wonder the worlds in such bad shape -
i was wrong gods not resposible for sin you are - you'll have to change your name to sinfullife -

Fine then!

I'll be the sacrificial sinner...

nah, i need to find someone more worty of the title your to cute to be the sacrificial lamb.

Tease

eljay here is a sample of what i'm talking of:

I form <03335> (8802) the light <0216>, and create <01254> (8802) darkness <02822>: I make <06213> (8802) peace <07965>, and create <01254> (8802) evil <07451>: I the LORD <03068> do <06213> (8802) all these things.


i make peace and create """EVIL""" I the lord do all of these things. ""I"" the lord do all these things.


so my point still is that god created the evil[sin]and is the cause of mankind falling.

Wow!

When we try to "make" anything...

...don't we effectively create the opposite?

my point exactly- earlier i had stated he can't just be held accoutable for good and not for evil. he has to be accountable for both. but in doing so he put man in the position of not having a choice they could have eaten from the tree of eternal life, but they did not, they were temted to gain knowledge by satan/the beast but god set the scenario up for this to be able to take place - why not just place the good tree there? why the so called bad tree? why was it important for god to make a tree of good and EVIL? i can see no other reason than to create a situation where they would be tempted and fall so that god could continue to bring forth his plan. to me this sounds like something man would conjure up not an all loving god.

That almost sounds reminiscent of Zeus and the Greco/Roman pantheon and all of their Gods and Goddesses. They often came across as very petty and would "set humans up" or else test them in various ways. They played men and women like pieces on a chess board. Not important here but just an observation.

no it is important i see it this way also it sounds like myth made by men, not from a supreme bieng that is loving or concerned for man but only wants his needs to be fulfilled.

"He" created ALL of this...

Why have us come here in the first place if not to experience ALL of this just as it is?

****************************************************

Remember Star Trek?

Remember the Prime Directive?

Remember those civilizations depicted as being so far behind ours (less evolved)?



Not THAT far behind...

no fill me in? ah - so it sounds like your for this balanced good and evil then correct - finding balance like ying and yang? correct me if i'm placing this on you incorrectly.

The Prime Directive

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

http://www.70disco.com/startrek/primedir.htm

"God" could be seen as Star Fleet Command...

Regardless of what "God" already knows to be the truth or outcome, "He" doesn't interfere with our natural process of "evolution".

****************************************************
Yeah...

The balance thing...

That would be me.