Well that may be true Miles but i think if you really look at the war years you will see that anumber of events were witnessed and that not only were there spiritual things happening in the skies but also on the ground, the trumpets were heard and the rapture occurred it just was not seen by everyone, the armies fought the battle of armegeddon in the sky between satan and the angels and jesus, there were prophets/witnesses crying out whoa to jerusalem, there was starvation [a days wages for a loaf of bread] and even women eating their own children, there was the abomination of desolation, and i believe all else took place whether chilton had wrote his book or not. a thurough study of al that happened as was recorded by Josephus and those things that took place in the heavens was the fullfillment of revelations and all prophecy concerning israel and the believers, it's just that "all" was not recoreded or visible to Josephus at the time of his writings. The end of the AGE had come upon Israel - just as the prophets had predicted and as jesus also predicted. you must remeber nothing was ever seen like what tok place to the great city and temple till that time, it was foretold and accomplished, there is no more to come except possibly the final judgement, crosses and all -

where does that info come from.. most books of the Bible were written after 70ad.. yet no mention.. who is you source? Chilton

do your own search on the dating, many first through 3rd century people felt that the books were written earlier than the thoelogians of later dates, no this is public info not chiltons, he did not turn me on to josephus that was done by the futurist trying to support him saying that he knew of this jesus which many now think was forged. back in the 70's i did not enev know of chilton or preterism only the evangelical view of things, which i found to be wrong.

Here's one of many i looked up but there are many more:

The internal evidence of the book of Revelation seems to suggest that the Temple in Jerusalem is still standing at the time of the vision. Moreover, the mark of the beast is an allusion to Nero Caesar. Since the Temple was destroyed in AD 70 and Nero killed himself in AD 68, the vision would have to date before AD 68.

Yet the scholars who place the vision later always drag out that Irenaeus quote stating that it was written "at the end of the reign of Domitian". So I looked up the quote in Irenaeus. Guess what? It doesn't say that the book was written at the end of Domitian. Nor does it say that the vision of Saint John occurred in the reign of Domition. Rather, it says that it was "seen" towards the end of Domitian's reign.

"It was not seen very long time since,but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5, 30, 3).
In other words, the document appeared in the reign of Domitian. This doesn't mean that it was written or experienced at that time. John could have experienced the vision of Revelation and only published the document in about AD 96.

others of a pre AD 70 date



1 Cf. J.A.T. ROBINSON, Redating the New Testament (London 1976), with bibliography (chap. VIII); K.L. GENTRY, Before Jerusalem Fell. Dating the Book of Revelation. An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition (Tyler, TX 1989), with bibliography (17-18, 24-38); R.B. MOBERLY, "When was Revelation Conceived?", Bib 73 (1992) 376-393; J.C. WILSON, "The Problem of the Domitianic Date of Revelation", NTS 39 (1993) 587-605; T.B. SLATER, "Dating the Apocalypse to John", Bib 84 (2003) 252-258.

2 In the past the following supported the reinterpretation of Irenaeus: J.M. MACDONALD, The Life and Writings of St. John (London 1877) 169-170; S.H. CHASE. "The Date of the Apocalypse. The Evidence of Irenaeus", JTS 8 (1907) 431-435; G. EDMUNDSON, The Church in Rome in the First Century (London 1913) 164-165, among others. Nowadays, GENTRY, Before, 45-59.

3 Cf. F.W. FARRAR, The Early Days of Christianity (New York 1884) 398; E.C. SELWYN, The Christian Prophets and the Prophetic Apocalypse (London 1900) 125; D. GUTHRIE, New Testament Introduction (Downers Grove, IL 31970) 17; J. MOFFATT, The Revelation of St. John the Divine, The Expositor’s Greek Testament (ed. W.R. NICOLL) (Grand Rapids 1980) V, 320; MOBERLY, "Revelation", 380-383.

4 On Irenaeus as the only source of this tradition, cf. M. STUART, Commentary on the Apocalypse (Andover 1845) I, 281-282; II, 269; M.S. TERRY, Biblical Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids [1883] 1974) 237-239; W.H. SIMCOX, The Revelation of St. John Divine (Cambridge 1898) xiii; C.C. TORREY, The Apocalypse of John (New Haven 1958) 78; B. NEWMAN, "The Fallacy of the Domitian Hypothesis. Critique of the Irenaeus Source as a Witness for the Contemporary-Historical Approach to the Interpretation of the Apocalypse", NTS 10 (1962) 133-139.

5 Papias was quoted by Philip of Side (TU, II, 170) and Georgius Hamartolus (Chronicon 3.134). Swete has stated that Papias does not affirm that the brothers suffered martyrdom at the same time. Therefore, John might have died at any date before the last days of Jerusalem. Cf. H.B. SWETE, Commentary on Revelation (Gran Rapids [1911] 1977) clxxix-clxxx.

6 Cf. GENTRY, Before, 93-94.

7 Cf. GENTRY, Before, 104-105. Recently, M.-É. Boismard has defended the tradition of the early martyrdom of the apostle John, son of Zebedee (Le martyre de Jean l’apôtre [Paris 1996]).

8 Cf. GENTRY, Before, 68-83.

9 EDMUNDSON, The Church in Rome, 168; G.W. BARKER – W.L. LANE – J.R. MICHAELS, The New Testament Speaks (New York 1969) 368; L.L. THOMPSON, The Book of Revelation. Apocalypse and Empire (Oxford 1990)95-115.

10 Cf. GENTRY, Before, 97-99.

11 Mark 13,1-2; Matt 24,1-2; Luke 21,5-6.

12 Mic 3,12 (cf. Jer 26,18); Jer 7,12-15.

13 Dan 9,27; 11,31; 12,11.

14 Mark 13,14; Matt 24,15. Cf. Luke 21,20.

15 During the nineteenth century the following supported this position: F. BLEEK, An Introduction to the New Testament (Edinburgh 21870) II, 226; MACDONALD, The Life and Writings of St. John, 159; F. DÜSTERDIECK, Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Revelation of John (New York 31886) 46-47; B. WEISS, A Manual of Introduction to the New Testament (New York 1889) II, 82. In the twentieth century: TORREY, The Apocalypse, 87; ROBINSON, Redating, 240-242; GENTRY, Before, 165-192; WILSON, "The Problem", 604.

16 All biblical citations come from the New Revised Standard Version, unless I indicate the contrary.

17 R.H. CHARLES, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Revelation of St. John (Edinburgh 1920) I, lxii-lxiii, xciii-xciv, 270-271; MOFFATT, The Revelation, 281-295.

18 Cf. H.B. SWETE, The Apocalypse of St. John (London 1906) 221.

19 W. MILLIGAN, Discussions on the Apocalypse (London 1893) 95; G.B. CAIRD, A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine (New York 1966) 132; R.H. MOUNCE, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids 1977) 35.

20 C.H. GIBLIN, The Book of Revelation. The Open Book of Prophecy (Collegeville, MN 1991); M. BACHMANN, "Himmlisch: Der ‘Tempel Gottes’ von Apk 11:1", NTS 40 (1994) 474-480.

21 According to the Scriptures, God will be the eternal light that will enlight Jerusalem (Isa 60,1-3.19-20). His promise of giving David and his lineage a lamp (1 Kgs 11,36; 15,4; 2 Kgs 8,19; 2 Chr 21,7) was transformed into a messianic prophecy: "There I will cause a horn to sprout up for David; I have prepared a lamp for my anointed one" (Ps 132,17). God himself declared that His Chosen one would be "light" to the nations (Isa 42,6; 49,6).

22 D. FLUSSER, Judaism and the Origins of Christianity (Jerusalem 1988) 457-459.

23 FLUSSER, Judaism, 464.

24 Josephus, Bell. Iud. 2-6.

25 Arguments in favor of Rome as Babylon the Great (Rev 17–18) can be found in: J.E. BRUNS, "The Contrasted Woman of Apocalypse 12 and 17", CBQ 26 (1964) 459-463; A.Y. COLLINS, "Revelation 18: Tount-Song or Dirge?", L’Apocalypse johannique et l’Apocalyptique dans le Nouveau Testament (ed. J. LAMBRECHT) (Leuven 1980) 185-204; C.P. THIEDE, "Babylon, der andere Ort: Anmerkungen zu 1 Petr 5,13 und Apg 12,17", Bib 67 (1986) 532-538; R. BERGMEIER, "Die Erzhure und das Tier: Apk 12,18 –13,18 und 17f.: Eine quellen- und redaktionskritische Analyse", ANRW II 25.5 (1988) 3899-3916; MOBERLY, "Revelation", 383-389; R. BAUCKHAM, The Climax of Prophecy. Studies in the Book of Revelation (Edinburgh 1993); A.Y. COLLINS, "Feminine Symbolism in the Book of Revelation", Biblical Interpretation 1 (1993) 20-33; H. GIESEN, "Das Römische Reich im Spiegel der Johannes-Apokalypse", ANRW II 26.3 (1996) 2501-2614; J.N. KRAYBILL, Imperial Cult and Commerce in John’s Apocalypse (Sheffield 1996); D.E. AUNE, Revelation 17–22 (Nashville 1998); G.K. BEALE, The Book of Revelation. A Commentary on the Greek Text (Grand Rapids 1999). Arguments in favor of Jerusalem as Babylon the Great can be found in: J.S. RUSSELL, The Parousia. The New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord’s Second Coming (Grand Rapids [1878] 1999); W. MILLIGAN, Lectures on the Apocalypse (London 1892); J.M. FORD, Revelation (New York 1975); GENTRY, Before; D.K. PRESTON, Who is this Babylon? (Ardmore, OK 1999). But Rev 17,18 is too conclusive to have doubts about Rome as Babylon the Great: "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth".

26 According to Eusebius, the Jewish-Christians went to Pella "before the war", because God ordered it through a revelation received by "approved men" (Eusebius, Hist. eccl. 3.5). However, it is very probable that this escape had taken place after the disastrous retreat of Cestius, when "many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink" (Josephus, Bell. Iud. 2.20.1).

27 According to this patristic tradition, Peter and Paul died in the same year, the fourteenth year of Nero’s reign (Eusebius, Chronicon 2.211; Hist. eccl. 2.25; Jerome, De viris ill. 5;12), that is to say, between October of 67 and June of 68.

28 Eusebius and Jerome affirmed that Peter and Paul died in the same year. But some Fathers used to present their lives as parallel lives. Irenaeus, for example, assured his readers that Peter and Paul founded the church of Rome. Cf. C.P. THIEDE, Simon Peter. From Galilee to Rome (Grand Rapids 1988) 157, 190-191. In my opinion, Peter was probably crucified in 64, during the repression that took place as a consequence of the fire in Rome, three years before the death of Paul in 67.

29 W.M. RAMSAY, The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia and their place in the plan of the Apocalypse (Grand Rapids [1904] 1963) chap. 29.

30 Tacitus, Ann. 14.27.

31 Cf. F.O. PARKER, "‘Our Lord and God’ in Rev 4,11: Evidence for the Late Date of Revelation?", Bib 82 (2001) 209-217, 219-220, 224-226.

32 This hypothesis has been proposed by WILSON, "The Problem", 597-604.

33 Cf. GENTRY, Before, 261-276, 279.

34 Cf. MOBERLY, "Revelation", 377-379, 389; SLATER, "Dating", 254.

35 FARRAR, The Early Days, 471; D.R. HILLERS, "Revelation 13:18 and A Scroll from Murabba’at", BASOR 170 (1963) 65; GENTRY, Before, 193-212; WILSON, "The Problem", 598.

36 Cf. note 25. On a coin (or medallion) of Vespasian, Rome is represented as a woman seated on seven hills. Cf. E. STAUFFER, Christ and the Caesars. Historical Sketches (Philadelphia 31955) 173.

37 A.Y. COLLINS, New Jerome Biblical Commentary (London 1989) 998-999; THOMPSON, The Book, 14.

38 Cf. note 9.

39 Cf. F.J.A. HORT, The Apocalypse of St. John (London 1908) I, xxvi; GENTRY, Before, 285-299.

40 I follow the traditional interpretation of considering the emperors already dead as "fallen". Cf. Moberly and his hypothesis that the five "fallen" kings are five emperors who died a violent death (Julius Caesar, Gaius, Nero, Galba, Otho). MOBERLY, "Revelation", 377, 383, n. 22, 385.

41 Tacitus, Hist. 1.2; 2.8-9; Suetonius, Nero 57; Zonaras, Ann. 11.15-18.

42 Cf. GENTRY, Before, 74-77, 300-307.

43 Tacitus, Ann. 4.34; Suetonius, Iulius 76; Josephus, Ant. Iud. 18.2.2; 18.6.10; 4 Ezra 11-12; Or. Sib. 5.12-15. Cf. A.Y. COLLINS, Crisis and Catharsis. The Power of the Apocalypse (Philadelphia 1984) 60-62; GENTRY, Before, 154-159.

44 Mark 13,19; Matt 24,21.

45 Mark 13,14; Matt 24,15. Cf. Luke 21,20.

46 1 Macc 1,54; 9,27; Dan 9,27; 11,31; 12,1.11.

47 Josephus, Ant. Iud. 18.8.2.

Ok Tribo explain this one to me.. He was not born untill 69ad and he was Johns Disciple. He was taught by John.John could not of been exiled for at min. 20 more years and he wrote Rev. on Patmos.

Saint Polycarp of Smyrna (ca. 69 – ca. 155) was a second century bishop of Smyrna. He died a martyr when he was stabbed after an attempt to burn him at the stake failed. Polycarp is recognized as a saint in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches.

It is recorded that "He had been a disciple of John." This John may be identified with John the Apostle, John the Presbyter, or John the Evangelist.[1]

With Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp is one of three chief Apostolic Fathers. His sole surviving work is his Letter to the Philippians

I think you answered your own question to me my friend:


It is recorded that "He had been a disciple of John." This John may be identified with John the Apostle, >>>>"""John the Presbyter"""<<<<, or John the Evangelist.[1]


in fact i'm currently under ther opininon that he is the writer of this book not saint john. And no thats not chiltons idea - hahaha

they are all 3 the same person. He did all those things so people called him those different title for wht he was doing


Saint John the Evangelist (d. ca. 110; יוחנן "The LORD is merciful", Standard Hebrew Yoḥanan, Tiberian Hebrew Yôḥānān), or the Beloved Disciple, is traditionally the name used to refer to the author of the Gospel of John and the First Epistle of John. Traditionally he has been identified with John the Apostle. The identification with the author of the Second and Third Epistle of John and the author of the Book of Revelation is a long-held tradition, though debated among some historical-critical scholars (see John the Presbyter and John of Patmos).


Saint John the Apostle (Greek Ιωάννης, see names of John) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. Christian tradition identifies him as the author of several New Testament works: the Gospel of John, the Epistles of John some believe he is the Book of Revelation Author although he would have been to old to write it.




John the Presbyter is an obscure figure in early Christian tradition, who is either distinguished from, or identified with, the Apostle John.

AHHH - isn't "TRADITION" wonderful my friend - you rail against it when it suits your purposes to do so and then use it elsewhere to try to prove a point of contention, i put no faith in traditions but if you do i will defend your right to do so till my very last breath on earth - after all thats what freinds are for right?

what tradition that i believe 70ad was a slaughter by Nero and nothing more. That makes me a traditionalists

no your use of it in your comment before this last one that the traditional view is. blah blah blah -

we will debate that over a couple of beers or such.. get you wound up and you will fall flat on your face

1. Revelation 13:17
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:16-18 (in Context) Revelation 13 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 14:9
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
Revelation 14:8-10 (in Context) Revelation 14 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 14:10-12 (in Context) Revelation 14 (Whole Chapter)
4. Revelation 16:2
The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.
Revelation 16:1-3 (in Context) Revelation 16 (Whole Chapter)

5. Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

6. Revelation 20:4

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)


That pretty much says it all.

Rev 13:11-18

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
NKJV

The sign 6-6-6 6 is the day man was mad. 3-6' = 3 men. thier sign, They all agree for one.the sign that all will take willingly as they will say this is who they are..Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They will say they are the trinity and the cross is the sign of thier power as you even make that sigh across your chest... The sign will not be a chip it is already here and considered Holy and worn by appr 90% of christains already. You are already in the Beast system and find it Holy.

Blessings of shalom...Miles

again i see people - you - taking literal things as symbolic and symbolic things as literal - but i forgive you BB, you had bad teachers -

Miles wrote:

The sign 6-6-6, "6" is the day man was made. 3-6's = 3 men. thier sign, They all agree for one.the sign that all will take willingly as they will say this is who they are..Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They will say they are the trinity and the cross is the sign of thier power as you even make that sign across your chest... The sign will not be a chip, it is already here and considered Holy and worn by appr 90% of christains already. You are already in the Beast system and find it Holy.

Blessings of shalom...Miles




TRIBO REPLY:

great work Miles. if it had not already taken place that would be a good way to perceive it. Unfortunately [or fortunately, depending on your point of view]- it has taken place, all that is left is to live and die and serve your god in-between those times, which is not a bad thing i don't think, i wouldn't choose it but i would not think it bad if i really believed and loved and worshipped as you or others, - I do feel sorry though for the generations yet to come being told decade after century ad infinitum - that their to hold onto the belief of jesus' physical return, its coming [they will continue to profess] just have faith you'll see, and another 2000 yrs. pass and they continue to say well he's coming just have faith, and all the while he's been here for 2000 years as of now, residing in a dead church that has no hope but for a rapture and salvation from the "great tribulation" - if anyone deserved to be saved from or out of the great tribulation it was the early christians, but as we see even they were not - in fact jesus told them they would suffer and so they did, but the time was cut short so that they would not go through the entire thing or at least some who were not tortured or beheaded or fed to the lions etc, ad nauseum. such a shame you cannot all see this, but it's not my job to open your eyes is it Ferralpussie? i'll leave that to your "on vacation" holy spirit to do his work.

its Walmart....

don't be so sure my lil tribo........I do not believe that it has yet come to fruition.

i know you do BB, and i will defend your right to be wrong with my last breath -

The first thought was that the mark of the beast was a micro-chip to be implanted under the skin. It was then discovered that these micro chips will go bad after about ten years and cause damage to the body.

The purpose of the mark of the beast is to tag and track humans, cattle, pets etc. Micro chips will not be used because of their problems.

Enter the inked bar code tattoo. You will have to pass it over the reader in order to do anything.

The reason it is called the mark of the beast is because the aliens (fallen angels) who engineered humans on the earth consider humans to be beasts. They consider humans to be property, slaves, live stock etc. They will all be marked and tracked.

The beast is human. The mark is the bar code tattoo.

The creators are aliens. They own us and they own the earth.

There's my theory.