i see demons dancing around my head all the time, am i crazy?

Are they demons or gingerbread men because that might totally change the interpretation of these images and you may just be hungry.

Since it was only "your impression" I cannot "withdraw" it. Your "impression" is wrong.

I will not withdraw any of my statements. If you cannot read and interpret them correctly it is not my responsibility to "withdraw" your incorrect assumptions.



I agree. Modern medicine can offer their own theories. So what? Everyone can offer their own "theories" or opinions or guesses. This is nothing new.



I am not trying to "compartmentalize" you I just want to know your actual opinion on the actual subject. I don't care about what "modern science" is doing or about their "theories." If you agree with them, then just say so.

But you still seem uncommitted and you have positioned yourself as an observer rather than a participant in this discussion because you do not reveal your honest opinion. If you don't have an opinion, just say so.



If they have offered "anything new" it certainly was not in the contents of your post and you did not refer to any other studies or references. What may be "new" to you may be same old same old to me, so that would depend on what you are talking about. If there is any "new" proof anywhere that you know of, you have not offered any.



Well good for you then. There is nothing you can possibly learn from anyone else then.




Make me uncomfortable? How would you fathom to assume that this makes me uncomfortable? You assume too much and you re-frame my statements and rewrite them to your understanding and then you presume my comfort level.



I am not interested in you being interested in topics that appeal to me. As far as "misquoting me" you do that to just about everyone. It has gotten to the point I can't read your posts at all without reading the entire conversation posted by the other person because what you say they said just isn't true in most cases. In most cases it is just what you think they meant.

You should spend more time reading what they write and the literal meaning of it and less time trying to read between the lines and figuring out what they may have meant, because when you read between the lines you do so at the risk of seeing yourself and your own motives in the other persons responses. That is when you truly reveal yourself in your response.




My statements are strait forward and should be literally taken as written. There is little need for trying to guess or "figure out" or "interpret" them or what I may mean. I speak plain English and I write what I mean and mean what I write. Its very simple. No need to interpret, or get insulted or whatever.



Pushing what? I have not at anytime insulted you or attacked you or any such imagined thing. I am pointing out to you that because you misinterpret people and misquote them on a regular basis, you are causing a lot of scrappy useless arguments that go off the subject and degenerate to whining because someone has offended or attacked you.

You wanted to know what my "issue" was with you, well, this is it.

Other remarks you make that cause bad vibes with you are remarks like, "In my opinion you have zero credibility so I will seek out other members with which I feel are somewhat more open minded."

To that I have to laugh because I am probably the most "open minded" person on this club. I'm not the slightest bit worried about my "credibility" either. I speak what I think and feel and people can like it or not.

So you want to drop this? Good. Consider it dropped. I'm tired of chewing gum anyway, and this gum doesn't taste very good anyway.

JB

Well I can only interpret your position based on what you type JB. Since you are now attempting to claim you never said that and I merely "misinterpreted" your comments (a likely story) then you are simply digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole with every post you make.

You openly admit that "modern medicine can offer you nothing to further expand your knowledge base or understanding of NDE." I feel that is a ludicrous statement and this is why I find your conclusions to lack credibility. You have simply demonstrated that EVERY medical explanation I now attempt to bring to the table over the course of the debate you will only address with your pat answer of "this is nothing new and modern medicine can offer me nothing to further my understanding"

I have repeatedly informed you exactly what my side of the debate is. You refuse to accept it for whatever reason. My position is that modern medicine is capable of offering viable explanations and theories for these occurrences. Unless you have the ability to deconstruct my assertion in an intelligent and cohesive manner henceforth, then I have to assume you lack the sophistication to do so. I also reject your premise that what I have attempted to present or bring forth is of no consequence. I have not heard one legitimate word out of you thus far to refute it or offer alternative theories.

I resent your attempt to try to "turn the table" and claim that I in some way am the one over the course of this argument who has made the claim that I can not learn from anyone else. How do you justify your own assertion that you refuse to look at the information I have provided as it relates to the observations and theories of medical science? If you are this "guru" like you seem to enjoy featuring yourself to be on forum, get to it already. Explain for us all why lack of oxygen to the brain is complete "hogwash" and is a non valid explanation for the physical events that begin to manifest themselves over the course of a NDE. I await your own refutation of this evidence with baited breath.

I am interpreting your irrational behavior as conclusive evidence that I have in some respect upset you and caused you a level of discomfort in presenting my medical evidence. It is clearly no secret to I or anyone else that you hold faith in the existence of a spirit world. If I now begin to offer explanations based in factual scientific research, it is not difficult to understand why you would react in this manner.

I explained to you that since I have zero interest in the topics that you find appealing, this is further proof to indicate that I would have no motivation to misquote you. I read your posts on forum and honestly my impression of you is that you have no credibility and seem to have a very limited background as far as your basic understanding of science and technology and in this case, biology. You seem to enjoy asserting that fictitious and comic book like theories are acceptable premises. Half of the time in reading your posts I cant tell if you are desiring to be taken seriously or are making a joke of yourself. Clearly, you can not tell either.

I have had no problem understanding the assertions or positions presented by others on forum. This should be yet another indication that the issues lie within JB and you might be better off not projecting your own faults and inability to communicate effectively onto others. I come to this forum to debate and debate is what I do. You on the other hand, seem to come around with the sole intention of making jokes as far as I can tell. I dont think I have read one serious statement you have made as long as I have seen you post.

JB I have never felt insulted by you. How could I? I cant even take you seriously most of the time. You should be able to understand my position on this debate or any other. If there is one thing I am, it is direct and straight forward. You on the other hand, half of the time I find your thoughts to be baseless and nonsensical if you really want to know the truth here. Some other people might find you engaging. I certainly dont.

It means that your either insane or a genius

back to the original post sometime soon?

Or should I pull up all my past thread that have to do with theories and science

Feral, please take it in another direction. I am tired of all of this posturing and lack of ability to present credible evidence.

what was the original question if any?

ok my answer is no, maybe, well could be not sure.

that settles that!!!!

This was what Feral originally posted and then it fragmented into about 18 different topics.

then i stand by my above post -

Congratulations Krisma for completely changing the subject back to the NDE thing.

That is not what my post to you was about at all.

We ended that conversation. Here is why: You said that your only point was that you felt science had credible theories that explained NDE's. Your point was that you thought everyone should look at "both sides of the coin."

With that, I agreed.

Also it ended because you would not tell me what you actually believed about NDE's, so you had no position to debate.

You would not take a position on either side, hence the debate could not go further. You also stated that you intended to "avoid" me in the future, so I assumed you were finished.

You now seem to want to move forward in this same debate even though you apparently have no opinion about NDE's.

You write:



So apparently you are not serious when you say you don't want to continue the debate, as you "await" my "refutation" of this evidence with "baited breath."

(I have to laugh at your sarcastic manner as it reminds me of myself when I was your age.)

Back to the subject at hand: My post in this thread was in response to your own short remark after I responded to sharpshooter laughing at his remark.

You wrote;


To which I responded to you:



I knew your first remark was aimed at me as you so many times have accused me of attempting to "compartmentalize" you.

So you see, you have invited this controversy.

But my intention was not to rehash the NDE debate; as we both know that no scientist can prove there is no afterlife nor can anyone prove that there is, so a debate about such a thing might be a waste of time if either side requires proof.

My intention was to tell you that my "issue" with you is your methods of argument, which seem to consistently use wrong interpretations, accusations, rewriting of statments, misquotes, whining that you are "insulted" or being attacked, etc.

It is difficult to have a purposeful or fruitful conversation with those kinds of tactics because it only serves turn into a scrappy exchange of sarcasm and vague insults.

So do you want me to ignore you hence forth or would you like to continue?

JB

JB, you were the one today who re-hashed this entire argument. I had told you repeatedly (the first time you initiated the fight) that it was pointless and I saw no reason to continue this discussion with you.

If you agree with my assertion then why go to such great lengths only to prove me wrong in some respect? I never even approached this topic as a debate mainly because it is a subject that interests you MUCH more than myself. I tend to prefer ancient civilizations and cultures. You were the one that approached me on the issue of NDE and asked what I was basing my assertion on exactly. I then offered you several articles and studies that related to plausible and possible explanations for NDE and the physical manifestations such as the appearance of bright lights, tunnels, feelings of warmth, the illusion of floating and several other occurrences that tend to come up repeatedly over the course of these experiences.

You then insisted that all of the information I was providing for you was nothing new and you were well aware of all of this documentation before hand and it proves nothing. That was what ended the debate right then and it degraded into a lot of petty bickering henceforth. You clearly demonstrated your inability to accept any research based in scientific theory, nor related study, nor medical observation. I also asked you to refute my evidence in some respect and you to this day have not. Instead you are simply re-hashing an argument over again.

I have told you REPEATEDLY what my position is. It is that modern medicine and science is a viable tool in investigating these NDE. The debate ended because you chose not to accept my premise. How could it continue from that point on? It would have been a waste of my time. This is how the argument would have proceeded. I would have produced for you yet another article witch detailed a study of this phenomena and possible explanations and correlations between situations and subjects. You would then reply that it is nothing new and I cant show you anything that you are not already aware of. What would be the point of me even attempting to pursue a debate of that nature? I think my time is more valuable than that honestly and there are other members who actually engage me in interesting conversation.

JB, when I said I wanted to "avoid you in the future" it was because of the behavior that you are demonstrating right now. You refuse to accept any of my possible explanations because science is "not worthwhile" in your opinion. That is why I choose to stay clear of you and this nonsense. You however could just not let it go and you decided to re-hash this argument with me again today of which I have no interest in pursuing.

By asking you to refute the medical evidence that I offered, I am politely requesting that you do just that if you are capable. You still have not. If you choose to again instigate an argument that you could not offer any credible evidence one way or another for the first time around, why bring it up again? That is why I was asking you to "show me the money" so to speak. You are all nonsensical, argumentative talk. Have the Draconians got your tongue?

So now I remind you of yourself at my age? Im 36 and that is probably irrelevant. Just stop it please.

I made that comment because you have INDEED attempted to compartmentalize me on various occasions. Its ridiculous. If you need to fuss around and poke into my background so badly in order to debate a particular topic with me, then tough luck sister. What possible motivation could I have now to offer you any of these personal details? None.

I have explained that my problem with your MO (modus operandi) as it relates to your ability to carry on a comprehensive debate is that you simply cant. You act like a crazy person and are all over the place most of the time. First of all your premises sound like comic book fictitious plot scenarios, secondly you avoid any direct questions that are posed to you, thirdly you make jokes very often which is fine but it can create a difficulty in determining when you are being serious or when you expect us to know that you are indeed attempting to assert a realistic position. I cant really enjoy a debate of that nature. I realize you feel I am too "academic" in my approach. So be it. That is a legitimate complaint that I can accept. So in that case, move on, talk with someone else who enjoys and understands your particular style. Its not my cup of tea. There is no offense intended in that remark.

I dont care what you do JB. You are free to do whatever you like but if you insist on petty bickering, then why should I waste my time? You tell me.

Above, Krimsa, is the first mention of the subject we had been discussing and it was made BY YOU ~ NOT ME.

And yet you say this:

"JB, you were the one today who re-hashed this entire argument. I had told you repeatedly (the first time you initiated the fight) that it was pointless and I saw no reason to continue this discussion with you. "

The one subject and only subject of my post in this thread was:

In the case in question you posted a quote from an unknown person and you refused to commit to a position on the subject one way or another. That is why the discussion could not continue.

Now you insist that your whole point was not about NDE's but your noncommittal statement is "that modern medicine and science is a viable tool in investigating these NDE experiences.

That, my dear, is simply an opinion about modern medicine and science, it is not an opinion of NDE's themselves.

My point is that unless you take a position or have an actual personal opinion about a subject, any subject, to debate it is as pointless as chewing gum and is an exercise in futility.

This discussion is about having an opinion about the subject. You either don't have one, or you refuse to reveal it. I suspect you have one but you don't want to take a position. If you don't express your true thoughts on it, I see no point in chasing you around the forums trying to find out what your point is or even if you have one.

I would have liked to have had this discussion about NDE's but it never got off the ground because you will not state your personal position on what your experience is or what you personally believe about them. I have not even stated mine. You just assume what my position is.

So be it Krisma. Stay behind your wall. It really does not matter.

JB

[ reclines back in easy chair with a bowl of popcorn] well this is interesting? two pagans argueing over a non christian topic?? [goes to get some drinks] this might be a first!! [nah!] well at least no one will be telling the other to go to hell right??

Krimsa and JB



TIME OUT

all of you go to hell





but in a loving way

No problem, I quit. It's pointless.

There is not even a clear cut disagreement that I can ascertain. The entire premise is nonsensical. If you want to prove to me what happens after you die, then none of this myocardial infarction stuff will be acceptable if it only lasts several minutes. I want you dead a good hour and a half or so and THEN brought back. Re-animator baby.

So are you saying that your position is that you think there is no after life and that NDE's are a delusion of the brain or mind because of the lack of oxygen or some other medical reason?

Are you now taking that position? Are you saying that you believe that when you die, you are dead? No after life, no reincarnation, just dead?

ps

How can there be a clear cut disagreement if you don't have an opinion about life after death or NDE's? That is my point. Otherwise we have no disagreement and no debate is possible.

JB