Well the point is you talk about this dam gland like it was the holy grail. Its useful and important and I would rather not have it forcibly removed if I had a say in it but come on...I would assume people are always referencing the term "mystical" when they address you because you discuss Tarot cards and a lot of other topics that people sometimes associate with mysticism. I dont find the pineal gland to be very "mystical" myself but mysterious. There is a difference. Although it is considerably less mysterious now.

Krisma, it is your "medical and scientific" explanation of the functions of the brain and/or the pineal gland that you (and them) seem to feel is the "end all" answer to the question about NDE and OBE and hallucinations, etc. End of story.

Worship the science hallelujah! They found the answer!

However I do not agree and I don't think it is the "end all explanation for NDE's like YOU do."

In fact, I think it is "pathetic science" that suggests that this is the solution or the answer or the cause.

If you want to believe that and worship that its okay with me.

I find it lacking. Insignificant, inconclusive and just plain pathetic.

1990? Really? Spiritualist have known about the pineal gland for hundreds of years. Science has denied there was even such a thing and they poo pooed it as "puesdo science."

They are barely catching up Krisma, and they are still trapped inside their little tiny box.

Pathetic.

That's right. They are barely catching up. And that's right, it don't embrace modern medicine which is more and more into making money in the prescription drug business. They don't care about natural medicine or natural cures anymore. They would rather sell you drugs.

Go to any doctor and complain about ANYTHING and guess what? He will send you home with a prescription to buy drugs 98% of the time.

My respect for this industry is quickly going into the toilet. Yes I have my doubts about anything they come up with.

JB

It probably is.

Dont you presume to tell me you have spoken for me and its the "end of story." I am referring to the connection being made between the pineal and that of NDE. This correlation was made quite some time ago. I did not hear you make mention of it? I guess they didn't cover that in the couple books you have read from the new age shop. Oh well.

I never once told you I felt it was the "end all" of any research or study. This last symposium they held was on 9-11 of THIS year. That doesn't sound to me like they have simply attributed the entire theory to being bound up in the pineal gland. I think some researchers specifically seem to feel that it might explain why there are the changes in perception. That would be one aspect of the entire phenomena. Dont be ridiculous.

I have never asked this entire debate that you accept the scientific explanations. I told you IT IS EVIDENCE that it is worth looking at. You are just a ridiculously stubborn person and cant even investigate something that wont support your agenda.

I dont believe it is the end all and I dont think science does either. As evidenced. For me, it really doesn't matter. I will just wait till I die and deal with it then.

The information I have shown you is clearly not pathetic. You have shown me NOTHING but sat back and made snide remarks about how the opinions and observations of modern science is a joke and hogwash. Now that's pathetic but I guess we have a different standard.

I dont doubt that spiritualist have known of the pineal gland for quite some time. I dont think that was ever in question. I am telling you that this direct connection has now been made and documented. Shouldn't you ask these other "alternative" sources that you wont specify exactly why they were not aware of the direct correlation made between the pineal and the NDE or they dont feel it is a worthwhile and plausible explanation?

It seems to me the only thing in the box here is JB because she will only investigate findings and research that serve her agenda or further her notions or conclusions.

Ladies and gentleman, so far the fight been a tough one, both ladies are in good shape and al the bleeding has been able to be taken care of by the ring doctor. [so far] - so far it's a close match. to close to call, 6 rounds left and no one is ready to throw in the towel. The cat's and alpaca's are on the edge of thier seats for this one and you can see the sweat on thier fur/hair. allright the bells about to ring for the next round ----------------
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DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You seem to speak a lot of hate yourself, rather than debate you like to call names a lot. That's your choice and right but you fail to see that you sound just as bad yourself, and you are correct that no mortal man can speak for God. Yes there are a lot of interpretations just as you yourself have done so often. truly disgusting as well

I think it is an important aspect of the NDE but not the ONLY explanation. You coming out of that box any time soon?

KAPOW!!!

click, click

lock and load

{grabs another cold one sits back and relaxes}

I guess you just can't read.

I have investigated those findings and research. Both sides.

I have looked at your so called evidence and found it lacking and pathetic. Sorry if that upsets you.

How many times to I have do repeat this?

I think we have beat this to death at least five times and I am finished. I'm beginning to have a near death experience myself because of beating this subject to death.

If you are trying to convince me of something it escapes me. I have told you what my conclusions are and I have looked at both sides and I have read all of your so-called evidence.

I have deemed it to be "Pathetic science" because it seems to imply that they (the scientists) feel they have solved the mystery because they found out a few things about the pineal gland or what may happen when the brain starts to die.

I'm underwhelmed.

Yeah yeah a likley explanation. You have seen EVERYTHING I have shown you. Well you didn't know about the pineal and its direct connection and you have not been able to refute any of the evidence I have presented. By refute I simply mean OFFER ANY alternatives or reasons to believe these conclusions they are reaching are false or erroneous or clearly inaccurate.

I never ONCE asked you to accept anything I was presenting. I told you it was completely foolish and close minded of you to sit there and try to tell me you WONT look at evidence or you refuse to compare and contrast your own findings to that of the scientific research being done in the field. The truth of the matter is, I dont care about any of this. You were the one who approached me in a hostile manner and demanded that I offer you some kind of explanation for why I asserted that there might possibly be alternative explanations for NDE and OBE. Well sister, you got that and then some.

It would appear it is your reading comprehensions skills that are sorely lacking.

I cant remember the last time I was more disappointed in a guru.

I have been talking about the functions of the pineal gland long before I ever entered into this debate with you. Now you are giving yourself credit for informing me about it? That is a hoot Krisma! You really can't or don't read my posts.

I even posted links to information, pictures and video about the pineal gland before I ever talked to you about any of this.




I don't think they are necessarily false or inaccurate. I never called them false or inaccurate. I called them incomplete and inconclusive and they don't solve the mystery.

They simply point to the glands and organs that facilitate the experience of second sight and make the statement that .. AH HA! THIS IS THE CAUSE!

Big deal. That is very old information. It's really nothing earth shattering or conclusive Krisma. They just recently discovered it in their scientific circles.

Pathetic.

Sure you go on and on about the pineal because you seem to feel it is the "end all" and the "holy grail" and the reason why NDE occurs. You have admitted this yourself in a post. I was the one that brought forth the evidence and articles that demonstrated that modern medicine had made a direct correlation between the pineal and the secretion of DMT actually inducing the dream state which was in all likelihood responsible for causing the sensory and perceptual distortions during an OBE or a NDE. You have NEVER once made that claim because it would not support your agenda that there is anything happening here besides a normal function of the body. That was a finding and discovery made by MODERN SCIENCE which you seem to feel is incapable of offering any worthwhile explanations for these occurrences.

I NEVER said any of this information I had produced SOLVED these various mysteries or definitely answered any questions. How can it? Have you been reading any of this? Are you aware of what NDE is exactly? It stands for Near Death Experience meaning there is NO way that either one of us can offer ANY clear cut evidence or conclusive data one way or another. My position this entire thread is you cant necessarily rule out any of these other plausible explanations (like the function of the pineal gland) but you dont seem willing to even hear me out.

You are dead wrong. Science has made ONE connection between the pineal and the PHYSIOLOGICAL: cause and effect as it relates to NDE and OBE. As far as I understand, if they were now attempting to say that is the end of this debate and we are not interested in further researching it, then they would not be having these huge symposiums and conducting studies and assembling research panels which include world renown institutions and physicians and specialists in the field.

I told you myself this information was old. The discovery was made close to 20 years ago of the direct correlation. It is still a VERY real and plausible explanation for the dream like state that people repeatedly report experiencing as well as the auditory and visual hallucinations both. That is my point. Now you are just arguing to keep dragging this out and its stupid.

A person who is actually willing to look outside of the box and investigate ALL avenues of research would not insist that the pineal gland is the key to everything and no further investigation is required henceforth.

Talk about pathetic.

Anyone can do a search on google and find out everything they want to know about the pineal gland. You were not the first one to post information about it.

Actually my first post about the pineal gland was in the extr-terrestrial thread, before we ever started to discuss it. This is the post:

After that, I learned more about the pineal gland via the Internet. All that you claim to have "informed me about" I had already been talking and reading about, but if it makes you feel important to claim you "said it first" then be my guest. I doesn't really matter to me.





Spiritualists have spoken about the pineal gland for centuries while modern science has denied its existence completely, calling the idea "pseudo science."

I have heard about the pineal gland in spiritual circles for years. I had never heard about the substance now called DMT until just recently.

Scientists have only just discovered this gland recently and some of its functions. If they want to call it the "culprit" of hallucinations and NDE's that's their business and their terminology.

They are just so happy and pleased with themselves for "finally discovering" the cause of NDE and hallucinations.

As I said before, it is there for a purpose just like the two eyeballs in your head. You would not be able to function well without it.

But it by no means proves that there is not an afterlife or that NDE's are meaningless hallucinations.

JB

The studies and research that I posted was entirely different. It was MEDICAL documentation that has confirmed the link between the pineal gland and its ability to release a surge of DMT in a person who is either in the process of dieing or close to it. This information was offering a credible link and possible explanation for why certain individuals who have experienced a NDE have similar claims of both auditory and visual hallucinations. All you are confirming with this post is what I had mentioned earlier. The fact that you go on and on about the pineal gland as being something other than what it is and having fantastical associations with the astral plane or supernatural qualities in some respect is all you have indicated here. The evidence I supplied showed you that no, in fact modern science made this discovery back in the 1990s and all it did was offer yet another explanation for the perceptual changes caused in a NDE. Read what I actually write and it will help you to understand.

You also claim it looks like a pine cone as if that is in some respect your OWN observation? That is what nearly EVERY website describes it as appearing similar to that I have visited. I see nowhere in your post where you mention or go into any kind of detail as to the cause and effect link of the pineal gland with NDE. Once you find that, please point it out. No where in your post do you make this correlation. This is what I have brought forth and is what I have been referencing. There is nothing magical about the pineal gland and it has several basic functions. One of these is a release of DMT in order to off set the sensation of pain and fear of death while a person is in the process of dieing. I do not see anywhere where you spoke of this very straight forward concept offered by medical science. I never once said it was my idea, I said it was a study that had been performed and I posted their findings.

I was the one who used the term "culprit" to indicate that it is quite possible that this gland causes these changes in perception. Do you have a better explanation? Lets hear it then. You know where I stand. I stand behind the findings of these scientists until I hear something better. So far, something better has not come from JB, that's for sure. Really if you would read my posts, you might be able to understand what I attempting to communicate to you. I would not doubt that spiritualists have known of the pineal gland for quite some time and even its functions. However, they did not seem to be able to successfully piece together this one very crucial detail that science was capable of accomplishing. THE PINEAL GLAND RELEASES DMT WHICH CAN CREATE A SIGNIFICANT HALLUCINATORY EFFECT AND CHANGES IN BOTH VISUAL AND AUDITORY PERCEPTION SUCH AS BEEN WIDELY REPORTED IN INCIDENTS OF NDE AND OBE. The pineal gland is also associated with the 6th Chakra or third eye but I draw a differentiation as it applies to practical application.

Of course the pineal gland is significant. Why do you guess that humans actually have them today? Why was the pineal gland included in our genetic profiles over the course of millions of years and passed on successfully? It could have easily been selected for nullification if it would not enact a required function in some capacity. My assumption would be that it served the exact same purpose for our early hominid ancestors as it does today in homo sapien sapien. It eases the pain and trauma associated with death and helps us maintain normal sleep patterns.

None of this presented information was intended to prove or disqualify your belief in an after life. Please stop being so defensive. It is what it is. It is a gland that has a specific function in the body and is now associated with a naturally occurring substance known as DMT.

Getting some reports on this one, folks.

Remember, there's a difference between discussion and attack.

Krimsa I know what you are are communicating to me.

My conclusion is only a little different from yours.

I conclude that the pineal gland has a definite purpose.

That purpose facilitates inner vision. It regulates sleep, dreams, visions, visual pictures in the mind, the aging process, "Hallucinations", Out of body experiences, astral perception, near death experiences (which are mostly out of body experiences)and the visual imagination.

How it does that is by way of biological secretions of substances.

DMT is one of them and is secreted during REM sleep as well as during out of body experiences and near death experiences.

I commend modern science for finally discovering some of the functions of this gland but I don't accept their discovery as an "explanation" that OBE's are merely hallucinations and malfunctions of the brain's perceptions of what they consider to be reality.

This is my final post on this matter. If you respond with more rhetoric don't expect an answer.

JB