Romans 14 examination continued

Vs 19 thru 21
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

My Interpreation (Deb/Feral)


Response from Redy
This makes no sense in context with the rest of the chapter, with what we have been discussing. It is an iteration of the idea that the old law should not be considered something by which to make judgments.

By getting rid of the old laws there is supposed to be more peace mutual edification (expansion of the mind). Do not destroy God’s work, what is encompassed in Jesus, by making your religion about food, because the only wrong in food is “for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble”

As a metaphor we can imagine that what an individual considers a sin is only a sin for themselves. If you think something is a sin for everyone you are destroying the work of God, because only God/Jesus will determine what is a sin for every individual. Judgment day is an reckoning and individual accounting – that can only mean that sin is not the same for everyone or judgment would be done in mass – Jesus supposedly came to stop that from happening.

Vs 22 thru 23
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin

My interpretation (Deb/Feral)


Redy Responce
You fail to tell me where you see fishers of men here?

You wrote: “There is no other way for all people of this world to hear about God but through people like me” Please read that again and tell me where you see that in verse 22 & 23?

What I see it saying is a lot different. What you have interpreted from the Bible, and have determined as right for YOU to follow, is the law as you perceive it to be between you and God. Do not condemn your self by what you choose to believe is a sin, JUST as you should not condemn yourself by approving of things just because they benefit only you.

But if you doubt your faith and make choices Not of faith, than that is a sin. Example, if you believe eating meat on Friday is a sin (remember Deb, "to believe" means you KNOW IT, it is your faith) But you eat meat anyway, then it is a sin, even if it is not considered a sin for another man to eat meat on Friday.

I always wondered where the Vatican got some of their dogma! Amazing!

SUMMATION:
What all of this chapter tells me is that a Homosexual can truly believe that the words in the Bible have been misinterpreted and that the love and commitment between same-sex couples is not a sin. If in all things they are led by faith and live “ in God” then for them there is no sin. The sin can only be committed by one who believes it is a sin. So if in homosexuality there is not choice, if genetics makes a person that way, and YOU make them see themselves as sinful, YOU are putting a stumbling block in their path.

One last thing; if in your judgment, that homosexuality is a sin, you fail to support anti-discrimination efforts in the law, when it is pointed out to you, you have committed several sins. You have judged, you have acted upon that judgment and finally your actions have done a disservice to man (the servant of God). The sin is yours because you have eaten of something that has caused your brother to stumble on his journey to God. The sin is not with the homosexual, not unless God judges it so and that will be when you stand side by side with every other person and account for your actions in this life.

Finally I want to add a comment to what Wouldee wrote last in his post responding to my original interpretations.

Wouldee Wrote:



If one partakes (eats) of the Bible for the benefit of understanding their fellow man, without intention to believe in its teachings they are eating without faith, but in that interpretation you believe that only “Christians” can be saved. That is a judgment and serves as a catch 22 in your interpretation. That’s the way I see it.

BUT – for a believer to profess what they believe and then doubt what they have professed, is an error (a sin) So the earlier warning, which was, not to condemn ourselves or to “accept” beliefs they can not be convinced of is understandable.

Feral and Wouldee, what a great time this had been, thank you both.

I still have questions and I’d like to see what other feel about interpreting Romans 14. I think we would see that everyone puts their own spin on the interpretation and that is a big tell.

I, for one, could never understand, if the Holy Spirit is guiding each person in their interpretation, why are they all different? If there is but one interpretation, then it must be individually one, not one for all individuals. In that case sin is only in the eye of the beholder or the 'conceiver' and means nothing, unless the "sinner" believed it to be a sin in the first place. (sinner - a person who questions their faith.)

Dammit...I knew it. I'm a sinner. I may know for myself, that God is in my heart and that I must follow what I have learned. Now I have to worry because I question. Because according to this, my questions give way to me being a sinner. But, I already knew I was a sinner.

So, if someone sayd the "f" word and it makes me uncomfortable...it is a sin for them to do it if they know it?
I already knew that I must be careful what I must say to someone on a journey. That to cause them to stumble is of course a sin. It makes closing that door all to easy.

So, lets say...if I want my steak medium rare, and it makes evreybody gag...I am not supposed to eat it in front of them? Well, dang! There goes my steak eating days.

I do not eat of pork too often. I love how it tastes; but I know what I have read in the bible. I also know that God does not change His mind. So why would it be okay to eat it now? Because in the new testament it clears the way. I'm sorry, I do not trust that. I admittedly have eaten it. I feel bad when I do(rarely eat it)So...that makes it a sin because I am unclear on it? How about my lobster and shrimp? It is also said that it is unclean to eat those. Rarely do...can'rt afford it. But, I love it, and worry whether I am wrong. Another sin?

I am doomed. Doomed......doomed.
Kat

Redy,

the distinction given of eating in faith is not speaking to spiritual food, but food needful to the body, the carnal man, the flesh.

Honoring the flesh with nurture and oneness and clarity of purpose as the house of the soul is of paramount importance for being equally balanced physically, spiritually and intellectually.

Allowing the flesh to dominate is not faith at work, but prurient distraction from greater values for ones' soul.

The "eating" is only one of any number of examples which Paul could have employed to make his point, but seeing that we all eat, it is clear to me that he was deliberate in his modeling to make his point touching something we all do, which is nourishment and sustainence for our mortal bodies, and at the same time leaving the personal judgement inclusive of other habits and pleasures centered on the flesh as it relates to others.

Perhaps he could have been more pointed in his remarks and chosen to discuss pork, but he did not. His intention is not to make judgements that another's conscience before God bears in surety or doubt. A Jew may doubt the goodness of partaking of pork in good conscience, but a Greek would not understand such a compunction of conscience.

But by beibg so deliberate in pointing to a common necessity for exemplifying confidence in choices, he used an example that is blameless of any elitist inclusion or exclusion.

Such writing style is characteristic of Paul, in general.

Very often his words are misconstrued.

The whole of his letters are an insight into the fluidity of his total discourse.

which is summed up as, let us be mindful of Christ and His glory, not our own.; seeing that he is speaking to the Church, first and foremost, and not proseltyzing neophytes, but directing the blamelessness of one's witness of God in not supplanting God, but revealing God to others by our own chasteness.

And His glory is "human kind". Not to be mocked by those who perceive to KNOW more than someone else.

God makes no mistakes. We are all deliberate. We are all Gods children. Loved and adored by Him.

When the time comes; we shall speak to Him in the highest glory. If our truth will be known as sin; we will be forgiven for all, under His promise of repentance. I would imagine that if we find out when the time comes that we have sinned un beknownst to us, that we will be given the right to repenet. I mean who wouldn't? Then all Hell breaks loose. The seven years of misery and hell. That is where the Lord will know the true hearts of man. And who will be forgiven.

Kat

hhmmmm

yes, Kat.

Being Christian is not easy.

we are afforded being judged by God every day and afforded repentance and recompense along the way.

That we may find ourselves blameless before Him whom we have to do with in judgement.

We do not escape, nor do we put off such things.

we are led to correct ourselves as we go.

Embracing our conscience and endeavoring to present the answer of a clear conscience towards God.

Now...

and forevermore.

The Holy Spirit works this in us, purging all that is not of faith, and cleansing us daily of all that is unfaithful, in his mercies and by his grace given us.

Was about to go to bed and noticed the post. Wouldee and Kat, thanks, nice to see you two tonight.

Wouldee, I understand much of what you are saying. I don't agree agree with it, but I can see how it makes sense to you and in some respects I can accept some of it.

There is one thing I can't accept. When there is a conflict between the flesh and the spirit, it is usually with regard to "what is righteous". But what is right in the flesh may not always coincide with the spirit.

That is way (I think) we are asked to be sure, to be convinced of what we choose to believe. Because once we believe it, it becomes the basis from which sin is born.

To believe that we are spiritual beings first, and to KNOW we are hostage to a physical body, means we have to take the needs of this physical body into account. We can not live up to the perfection required of the spirit because the spirit is not of this realm.


Kat - here is an exmple of what I believe the verses are saying.

Many Christians still follow the ritual of Lent. The idea is to give up something of value or important to you, for a certian period of time. I work in a Bakery outlet and I can't tell you how MANY times I hear the following kinds of comments.

"" Wow, why are these suguar-free cookies so expensive ""

My responce, "most special dietarey needs are expensive"

followed by ""I can't wait till Lent is over and I can
eat sugar again.""

Now for some reason those people felt they were doing right. But were they? They didn't question what they were doing, so was it a sin? However, If I were a Christian who gave up ALL sweets for lent, I might be very highly offended and beleive that these people were sinful.

Who do you think had the stronger faith - the poeple who replace their sugar with sweetner, or the person who ate noting sweet at all, but judeged others based of their own perception of sin?

Hmmmmm..Well, the one eating of the substitue is standing to their own knowledge of eating nothing with sugar, but taking care of that sweet tooth without breaking the law as they see it. By interpretation.hense false.

The one not eating is of course not eating ANYTHING sweet. Real or unreal. Nothing sweet. Nothing. But....judging another on their own faith based belief.

I don't know red. Tell me.

Romans 12:2

May you never be conformed
To the world and all its ways
To be fashioned by its customs
And to do what others say
May you be so transformed
By the renewing of your mind
As you meditate on God's word
In His presence you will find
That you will be renewed
And changed so you may prove
What is the perfect will of God
And that which is good for you
For God so longs for us
To become as Jesus Christ
To always walk in conformity
To His purpose and will for our lives

(© By M.S.Lowndes)

“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,
a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

Hi everyone,

Debs and prayer warriors - just received a request for prayer
(continued prayer) for Kim (Earthsprite) - who is battling cancer (has been for quite some time) and is due to undergo surgery soon.

Definitely will be praying for Kim too, Britty.

Thank you for letting us Know.

awww I did not know about Earthsprite.......I will add her to prayer chain....

my prayers and heart are with Kim.
may the Lord bless her and her family.

Prayer on love by St. Francis de Sales.

O love eternal,
my soul needs and chooses you eternally!
Ah, come Holy Spirit,
and inflame our hearts with your love!
To love - or to die!
To die - and to love!
To die to all other love
in order to live in Jesus' love,
so we may not die eternally.
But that we may live in your eternal love,
O Savior of our souls, we eternally sing,
"Live, Jesus!
Jesus, I love!
Live, Jesus, whom I love!
Jesus, I love,
Jesus who lives and reigns
forever and ever. Amen."

Grant me, O Lord my God,
a mind to know you,
a heart to seek you,
wisdom to find you,
conduct pleasing to you,
faithful perseverance in waiting for you,
and hope of finally embracing you.
Amen

By St. Thomas Aquinas

Peace prayer by St. Francis of Assisi.

Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;
that where there is hatred, I may bring love;
that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness;
that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;
that where there is error, I may bring truth;
that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;
that where there is despair, I may bring hope;
that where there are shadows, I may bring light;
that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.
Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted;
to understand, than to be understood;
to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.
Amen.

Prayers are in.

Amen


Thank you ((((Miguel))) for sharing all the lovely prayers.

“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,
a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

Good morning all.

What entered?

1Corinthians2:9 uses a word meaning "to grow, or spring up" for 'entered' as read in KJV.

It's parallel affirmation in Isaiah 64:4 uses the word that is translated as "perceived" for 'entered' as found quoted in 1Cor2:9. This word, 'azan] means, to expand ; to 'broaden out the ear'(with the hand), i.e.(by impl.) to 'listen':- give(perceive by the) ear, hear.

1Cor. 2:9-11. (the context continues through verse 16 which ends with, but we have the mind of Christ That ought to be contemplated carefully.)

9)But as it is written, (Isaiah 64:4), Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.
10)But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit : for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11) For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.




Mark 7 : 14-16, and the answer for that in 18-23.