1. God exists
2. THe New Testament is a historically reliable document
3. Miracles are possible.
4. Miracles confirm Jesus claim to be God.
5. What ever God teaches is true
6. Jesus taught that the bible is the word of God by confirming the old testament and promising the New Testament.
7. Therefore the bible is the word of God.


I would like to here your objections to my argument. If these six premises are true then the conclusion logically follows.

This is going to be interesting.

Are your 7 statements meant to be sequentially supporting?

Cuz they're kinda all over the place, logically speaking.

Let me clarify.....I am not in opposition to your claim, but only in the logical argument itself.

1. No proof - it is bad logic to use an unprovable statement as proof of your argument
2. Historical accuracy is not proof of anything - Historical fiction is a large genre of entertainment, but those works are not proof of fact. Dracula, historically accurate; Anna Karenina, historically accurate; I could go on.
3. see 1.
4. see 3.
5. see 4.
6. You haven't proven jesus to be real and even assuming he was, you haven't proven him be a deity, even if we assume both the previous two, you haven't proven the bible to be an accurate account of his teachings or his life. see 5.
You have proven nothing except for lack of solid logical reasoning.

1. How do you know since it is an unprovable and untestable belief.
2. While it does involve events that really did occur, so do a whole lot of fiction novels. That doesn't not mean that everything in the New Testament has been proven to be true.
3. Sure, I think miracles are possible.
4. That miracles are possible does not prove anything at all about Jesus being God or anything about the Christian God at all.
5. No. Because God is not proven therefore this cannot be a sound hypothesis.
6. Not so, because of 1. and 5.
7. See number 6.

I can't even believe that you even posted this but what the heck:

1.Proof?
2.Proof?
3.Proof?
4.My grand mother has said she was cured and our lady of Lourdes, (sp?) Personally I think you can bring about what you believe by mind and will alone. Whether Jesus actually prerformed miracles..Proof?
5.where is God teaching lately?
6.Wow that is a stretch, but all the same prove it?
7. Don't think so

Don't know how you can prove anything by the bible anyway, considering how influenced man can be by his own prejudices.

If the Bible is the word of God then Jesus could not possibly be the son of the God of Abraham:

Here's the proof.

The WORD of the God of Abraham:

Exod.20
[3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


The WORD of the God of Abraham:

Deut.13
[6] If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
[7] Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
[8] Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
[9] But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

The WORD of Jesus:

John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's blaspheme!

How could the Son of the God of Abraham not have a clue what his father had commanded?

I figure you have the following choices:

1. Jesus was clueless about his heavenly Father's rules and desires.

2. Jesus wasn't the son of God and was just a con artist with potentially good intentions.

3. The men who wrote the gospels put words in the mouth of a dead Jesus that Jesus never truly spoke.

4. The whole story is a scam from the word go and Jesus is a fictional character.

5. The God of Abraham is suffering from Alzhiemer's disease and had totally forgotten what he had commanded the Jews to do.

What other possiblity could their be?

If the Jews had Jesus crucified for blaspheme God could do nothing but tell them that they have done precisely as he commanded them to do.

The whole story is utterly nonsensical.

It would be a story of a God who made the ultimate BLUNDER! Constantly commanding people to murder heathens and then sending his only begotten Son to become a heathen in their midst.

What sense would that even make?

The New Testament is just not compatible with the Old Testament.

That's all there is to it.

The complete Christian version of the Bible cannot be the word of God. The NT is simply not compatible with the OT.

I think the Bible has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that it can't possible be the word of a sane wise God.

They say it's impossible to disprove the existence of a God. And I would agree with that statement in the most abstract sense.

But at the same time I think it is quite possible to show how specific doctrines and mythologies can't possibly be true.

And the Bible is one doctrine that disproves itself in a myriad of ways. I personally think that the Old Testament alone shoots itself in the foot in many places. Even without bringing the New Testament into the picture.

But once the New Testament is added it's truly hopeless and can't possibly be true.

It proves itself to be false. No historians required.

I am not going to respond to posts concerning my argument, it would take to long. I will give reasons for my premises.


1. All designs imply a designer.
2. There is great design in the Universe.
3. Therefore, there must be a Great Designer


"God makes sense of the complex order in the universe. During the last 30 years, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a delicate and complex balance of initial conditions simply given in the Big Bang itself.  We now know that life–prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life–permitting universe like ours. How much more probable?
12. Well, the answer is that the chances that the universe should be life–permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable.  For example, Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re–collapsed into a hot fireball.{5}  P.C.W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes, at least.{6}  [He also] estimates that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by only one part in 10 raised to the 100th power would have prevented a life–permitting universe.{7}  There are around 50 such constants and quantities present in the Big Bang which must be fine–tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life.  And it's not just each quantity which must be finely tuned; their ratios to each other must also be exquisitely finely tuned.  So improbability is multiplied by improbability by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers.
13. There is no physical reason why these constants and quantities should posses the values they do.  The one–time agnostic physicist P.C. W. Davies comments, "Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact."{8} Similarly, Fred Hoyle remarks, "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super–intellect has monkeyed with physics."{9}  Robert Jastrow, the head of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, calls this the most powerful evidence for the existence of God ever to come out of science.{10}
14. So, once again, the view that Christian theists have always held, that there is an intelligent Designer of the universe, seems to make much more sense than the atheistic interpretation that the universe, when it popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing, just happened to be, by chance, fine–tuned for intelligent life with an incomprehensible precision and delicacy."

The evidence for the supernatural is so overwhelming that the leading defender of atheism and intellectual philosopher, Tony Flew. For the past sixty years he has been the top defender of atheism, up there with the ranks of Bertrand Russel, has recently become a believer in the supernatural.

1. Perhaps a God exists or a higher intelligence, but if it is the one that the Bible preaches then he is of not higher intelligence at all, but of saddened aggression allowing the slaughtering of millions of innocent people because they didn't believe in the biblical picture you so admire and worship nubby.

2. Historical testament for some, and a fairy tale book for others, and reliable I cannot agree for look at what it had done in the name of the god you worship in history. Hundreds of Millions persecuted, killed, and tortured in the name of a Jealous God who will not allow any others to go before him, even if he has to do it by force.

3. Miracles are possible and the bible didn't come to that conclusion. Try older religions and civilizations and you will see that they too have said this.

4. The Ancient Egyptians are the original authors of the miracles Jesus did. Look into their history and you will see stories of Ra, Osiris that have duplicate events that were written thousands of years earlier. That is if you are interested in other religious belief systems and if your God of Abraham will grant you permission to look into it. Afterall, he does forbid alot.

5. Try Native Indian Spirituality, Buddhism or any Eastern Philosophies, Druidism, as of Shamanism, or read books on Eckart Tolle are but only a few of the 4000 and more religions that exist in the world. Open your mind and spend time in seeing not only the writings but also discovering its history. You will see there are peaceful religions, faith systems, and spiritualies that have a better record then the old or new testament that you so admire.

6. Jesus never wrote any of the things that the new testament holds. I think if he did write the new testament, it would have looked much different then what he is used as bait for.


7. The bible has created over 40 denominations of disagreements, which go to war with other abrahamic religions such as the muslims and the jews. In the end why follow a war thriving belief system that provides negative energy when there are greater philosophies and belief systems that ensure a open mind and positive results with your life and with others?

Smiless?

ERASE all that negativity you have been hearing on

this forum about God and the Bible.....

and go Read the Bible and find out the Truth for yourself .

Love you , my friend...gotta run now.

Christian Theist are not the only system/religion that believes this. Please give it a break. What a petty God you follow that excludes all but you. Sounds more like a High School Cliche

You are telling me to erase history? You are telling me to erase eyewitnesses of what Christianity had done to them and their elders and their people. I have a seminole native indian friend who is 97 years old and tells me the accounts of what he suffered and of his father because of christianity.

Reading the bible is the last thing I will do. There are much more peaceful and interesting books to read that have less negativity in it.

The truth of the bible is the truth of the atrocities of the world. One who follow its faith page by page hurt and destroy lives and not perserve it, especially those in power. It is your decision to put a blind eye on history, or on other religious practices, and lifestyles that deem to be much more peaceful to mankind. If that is the choice you choose then so be it, but I choose not to be blind.

I suggest you study Buddhism for beginners.

You're arguments are extremely weak.

First you claim in the thread title to be arguing that the Bible is the word of God, and now you're trying to argue for the existence of the supernatural.

You seem to have a very narrow view of the possiblities for God. You seem to think that either the Bible is the word of God, or there can be no supernatural at all.

In other words you're thinking solely in terms of two possiblities, either atheism is true, or the Bible is true.

But that is extremely limited thinking.

Why should anyone automatically assume that if a God exists it's a jealous egotistical God that lusts for blood sacrificies, and will send anyone to eternal damnation if they refuse to become a Christian bigot?

On the contrary the argument that you just gave about the idea that the universe is too grand not to have a "Great Designer" is actually very good reason to reject the Bible.

Clearly the Biblical God is not a great designer. Look at how inept the Biblical God is. He creates a race of humans and he fails them miserably as a mentor.

And supposedly even before that he had created a heaven where a full third of his angels had turned on him and left. Clearly his heaven was far from perfect if a full 33% of his angles didn't like it.

The Biblical God also displays gross inconsistencies.

At one point he handles his disapointment with the objects of his creation by flooding the planet to kill all but a handful on a homemade floating zoo.

Then later he supposedly sends his son to be nailed to a pole so that he can find it in his heart to forgive the mean vicious humans (who were only doing precisely as he had commanded them to do by the way).

The Biblical God sends such mixed messages it's hard to imagine this mythological deity to have had the mental discipline to have created the entire universe.

Also, why would this God be so obsecessed with humans on Earth? The Bible is an extremely human-centric idea of God. Not only does it give God many of humanities emotional and personality faults but it has God obscessed with becoming the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to rule over humans on planet Earth after they have a big war fighting over HIM.

The biblical God sounds like a Prom Queen on steriods that had a sex change operation and still can't get over the fact that everyone isn't bowing down to worship him/her.

Why would God be so anxious to rule over a bunch of pathetic humans on planet Earth and have them bowing to his ever wish and command?

This is the wet dream of the ancient men that made up these stories. This is the ambition of men who see POWER over others!

In fact, who else would bother making up such nonsense?

You appeal to the fact that the universe is so 'Grand', yet you fail to take into account that there are over 70 thousand million million million stars in the observable universe!

And that's just the observable part! We have every reason to believe that the universe continues far beyond what we can observe.

So why would God be so obscessed with lil' ol planet Earth and humans?

Jesus is God's "only begotten son?"

What about the rest of the universe? Surely the Earth isn't the only speck of dust in the universe that contains life?

Why would God have bothered creating such a vast universe if all he was interested in is the Earth?

The solar system would have been plenty. In fact the entire Milky Way galaxy is already overkill for such a scenario. Why then bother creating billions of other galaxies if all God wants it to be worshiped by petty humans?

Also, why bother creating an eternal hell fire to punish the non-believers? Why not just make them vanish from existence? What's wrong with the Biblical God that he needs to make people suffer for all of eternity just because they can't believe that he's such a jerk?

There is nothing sane about the biblical picture of God.

All that picture of God has ever done is pit man against man and nation against nation in bigoted division.

In fact, that very SAME GOD would have been responsible for having started all THREE Mediterranean religions! Christianity, Islam and Judaism!

And let's not forget the divisivness this religion has caused between the Christians. We have the Catholics and the Protestants hating each other's guts, and the Protestants have protested against each other to form a myriad of different denominations many of which have extremely opposing views of what God expects from mankind.

In short, the Bible could not possible have been written by the creator of this universe. It just isn't compatible with the intelligence required to create the universe.

The arguments that you give for the existence of the supernatural are actually good arguments for rejecting the Biblical picture of God as being totally absurd.

If there exists a God it must be more along the lines of Pantheism.

The God of Abraham is just a take-off from Zeus.

Amen to that!



Absolutely. Here you will find the real teachings of Jesus without the bigotry and hatred of the God of Abraham contaminating them.

There's no way that Jesus was the Son of the God of Abraham. Jesus talk the wisom of the Buddha, and actually denounced the hatred, judgment, and bigotry of the God of Abraham.

I can't understand why Christians can't see this. I was a Christian and I actually discovered this whilst attempting to learn the teachings of Jesus!

I think I did a good job too!

I learned that what Jesus had actually taught is the basis of Buddhism and not the Old Testament!

All the rest of the crap on the New Testament about a virgin birth, dying for the sins of man, and rising from the dead weren't taught by Jesus! Those things were added demagouery by the little men behind the curtain that used Jesus as a dead marionette doll to prop up the very religion that Jesus had actually denounced!

Jesus was a Buddhist I'm sure.

Or let's put it this way. Some Jew named Jesus learned Buddhism and tried to teach his brothers love and peace instead of the hateful judgmental ways of the fictional Old Testaments that they were living by. He was crucified for his humane efforts, and then his martyrdom was used by the authors of the New Testament to patch up the very dogma that he was attempting to bring people away from.

There's nothing in the Bible written by Jesus.

The Bible has nothing to do with Jesus.

People who love Jesus need to get a grip and recognize that Jesus could not possibly have been sent by the God of Abraham!

He actaully denounced the teachings of that God!

If you love Jesus become a Buddhist. That's what Jesus was attempting to teach.

And quit spreading Bigotry, Hatred, and Guilt in the name of Jesus!

It's not nice.

Your logic is so flawed you do more harm to your argument than benefit. There are many logic arguments in favor of intelligent design, and I would enjoy debating those, but unfortunately I have seen none of them, not have seen that you have any grasp of the fundamentals of logic. I recommend you do a little more study of debate, logical reasoning and the arguments that fit the former, then come back and try again. When you do so you may have to reevaluate your beliefs or may have a more firm grasp and why continue to believe what you do.

HABERMAS: Once you mentioned to me that your view might be called Deism. Do you think that would be a fair designation?

FLEW: Yes, absolutely right. What Deists, such as the Mr. Jefferson who drafted the American Declaration of Independence, believed was that, while reason, mainly in the form of arguments to design, assures us that there is a God, there is no room either for any supernatural revelation of that God or for any transactions between that God and individual human beings.

You really can't use Flew to argue that the bible is the word of god, since he doesn't believe in the bible himself.

Exactly.

Christians often use famous scientists or other scholars that have made statements about a possible belief "Intelligent Design" to suppport the idea that something as absurd as the Biblical stories are the "word of God" when in fact the people they are attempting to use to support that claim totally denounce the Biblical version of God.

Intelligent design does not point to the Bible. On the contrary it basically dismisses it becasue there's nothing intelligent about the Biblical picture of God when viewed as a complete story. So if we believe that God is intelligent we can rule out the Bible.

WHere is my logic flawed Thomas?

Thank you enderra, what is your worldview