All you're basically saying here is the following:

Yes, any sane reasonable person can see that the biblical account of God is unwise, and any attempt to understand it as being wise based on the Bible alone will always fail. Therefore, in order to believe in this religion you must imagine that God is so infinitely wise that he can make this stupidity work somehow.

I mean, seriously.

Why bother?

There already exist other spiritual philosophies that are already sane. Why buy into one that's insane under the hope that some infinite God can explain why it appears to be insane when in fact it's actually sane?

That's just silly.

Just face the facts that the mythology itself cannot be made to make sense. So why even bother with it in the first place?

If you need to imagine some external infinitely wise explanations to justify the absurdities in the mythology then I say just drop it as a failed mythology in the first place.

Why support absurdities under some crazy notion that there "might exist" explanations of why these absurd things could potentially make sense to someone who has way more knowledge than the mythology provides?

That's really just scraping the bottom of the barrel to try to support something that everyone recognizes as being absurd, even the Christians themselves who recognize the need to appeal to imaginary explanations that aren't part of the mythology.

That whole line of thinking is itself absurd, IMHO.

You could apply that same argument to the mythology of Zeus if you wanted to. Or anything really. That's a non-argument, as far as I'm concerned. That's just pure desperation to try to push an obviously absurd mythology that contains no rational explanations itself.

That's not true.

The Old Testament taught people to seek revenge, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and forgive.

Jesus taught the wisdom of Buddha, not the violence of the Old Testament.

Nope, your story doesn't hold water, IMHO.

But what I have recognized to be truth does.

So again, I'm not impressed. Your claims just don't hold true from my perspective.

I see no reason to support male-chauvinism, religious bigotry, and a need to condone blood sacrifices in order to be "saved".

None of that seems divine to me.

And then you have a God who condemns non-believers for simply not believing that God is associated with all these horrible things?

Sorry, that's kills it right there.

I never used to question this before though I'd question anything else, but I am now, and I don't think I believe it all anymore. I believe God exists, but if He's as loving as is said, more so then we, then the Bible version doesn't quite fit. A loving God would not damn anyone no matter what, a loving God would not force us to choose Him and His way with the threat of fire and hell, free will it isn't. How can it be, if there's a catch?

How can a loving God damn someone for living a good life but just believing the wrong faith, or not believing at all? It's all a dividing tool seems to me, as everyone think they're right, and they argue it instead of loving each other, the powers that be pray on this.

The truth is, everyone thinks they're right cause God can be seen anywhere, He is everywhere.

Thoughts people? Anyone else come to these conclusions? I know I'll probably get flak for it, but logically it's common sense if you open your mind to see it.

Unless you count hearsay from other people?

That's exactly what the Bible is.

It's just hearsay from other people.

The authors of the Bible make God out to be an evil being. That's one reason why I reject their stories.

No one can explain why a supposedly all-wise divine being is appeased by blood sacrifices. It certainly isn't explained in the Bible, it's just assumed that God is like that, probably because people were already accustom to accepting those kinds of Gods back in those days so no one felt any need to justify it. People just believed that this is what God's were like.

I need no explanations. It's all crystal clear to me.

The Old Testament is just fables like those of Zeus. There's nothing divine about them. They condone male-chauvinism, bigotry against "heathens", and the judging of others to be 'sinners'.

I don't believe that a truly divine being would support any of that.

The Old Testament also has God dealing with sin by drowning out the sinners, which fits in with the persona of those fables.

However, the New Testament is a story about a man who had a totally different view of life. He simply didn't support the moral values of the Old Testament. He taught moral values that were far more closely aligned with the teachings of Buddha.

He was wrongfully crucified for his views. And then the New Testament is nothing more than rumors that try to make out like this man was the son of the God of the Old Testament.

So I need no explanations. I have a totally acceptable explanation of the whole thing.

The Old Testament is total mythology.

Jesus was a mystic that was basically teaching the moral values of Buddhism and pantheism (i.e. what you do to your brother you do to me)

And the New Testament is just hearsay rumors that try to use Jesus to prop up the old religious bigotries of the Old Testament.

So I have all my answers with no questions left. The whole thing makes perfect sense to me as I've described it. Yet it makes absolutely no sense at all if you try to support the Christian view of things, IMHO.

So I have no questions. Just explanations.

I don't think you studied very much
when you were pursuing the Christian ministry...
As I have said before...
you cut yourself short when you walked away from it...
the first time you found something you didn't understand
...you flew the coup...better yet, defected.
Now, you need to be taught what every verse means ,
but that's fine
...If you continue to challenge the bible
...hopefully there will be someone
who will try to break it all down for you.
I tell you, the answers are so easy...

Okay, however, this entire thread has so far been the question of if God exists. So regardless of what story you want to tell that came from the bible there is nothing about my question that has anything to do with the bible, therefore I reject any comment that quotes a story from the bible, an excerpt, or whatever else from the bible.

I'm simply trying to figure out why people that believe in God also believe that God is watching them, waiting for them, and will take care of them no matter what...I've heard enough bible study from the missionaries, I don't care to hear any on a question that I want a simple answer to, a simple answer that I have simply not recieved yet.

Please, take no offense to this, but if I want to hear what the bible says I will read it again.

Nevermind, I figured this question would ultimately go nowhere, and it pretty much has.

Sorry, but if I go around preaching about a tooth fairy and say "I have felt the tooth fairy" that hardly qualifies as proof that the tooth fairy exists.

Continue doing whatever the hell it was that you were doing in this thread.

5, But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6, Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7, And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9, And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:5-15

Rev_21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving,
and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers,
and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake
which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

Want you to look at this verse. You have to take the wording into context and remember there is a difference in time and culture. Yes it says everlasting punishment. But then if that was eternal why would it also include but the righteous will have eternal LIFE. Last time I checked you would have to be alive to be punished. Therefore there will not be ETERNAL punishment, because they did not get ETERNAL life. The only reward for sin is death.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

These verses don't support hell being for humans. Notice it specifically says "kills the body and soul".

Mat_10:28, And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell

All I renounce is eternal punishment, eternal burning, ect. This verse actually supports as I've previously said. I've said there is no eternal punishment. You either receive the gift of heaven and eternal life or cease to exist. And would you look at that, the verse specifically says "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Last time I checked destroying ment to kill something, and I think if i'm correct if something is killed it is no longer in existence. So where exactly is the contrary to what i've previously said?

Tell this one to Cowboy.

Cowboy renounces the concept of Hell for humans. Yet here you have Matthew claiming that Jesus implies that humans will indeed go to hell.

There are also places in the New Testament where Jesus speaks of people being sent to hell and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So here's the problem. Which "Christianity" should we accept? Cowboy's or the New Testament's version?

Here you have your God sending people to hell again.

Perhaps we should talk about that concept in the thread on "Does God Care?"

What kind of a God sends disbelievers to hell where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Cowboy's answer is, "There is no hell for humans!"

Clearly Matthew says that Jesus disagrees with Cowboy.

Like I always say, even if Christians were able to proselytize their religion to the entire world's population, that would only be the start of the real holy wars, because then they'd start pointing fingers at each other and beating each other over the head with their own version of a rubber Jesus doll.

No two Christians can even agree on what these fables have to say.

The more quotes you post from that ancient text the more contradictions you reveal.

Now you're back to the God who hates people so much he sends them to hell. It's not enough to just let them die in peace, he needs to be sadistic about it and get some sort of revenge!

And he does this to perfectly decent and nice people simply because they didn't believe in him?

This God makes Satan look like a NICE GUY! It's no wonder that a full third of God's angels sided with Satan.

No problem. I agree to disagree.

Evolution is a scientific fact, and I really don't care what "Kent Hovind" has to say.

I'm educated enough in the sciences to know that evolution is a fact. If Kent Hovind disagrees with that then he's probably a religious evangelist.

So yes, we can agree to disagree. That's fine with me.

I'm on dial-up so I can't watch the video, but if I could view it I would point out the error of his ways as I'm sure he's presenting things incorrectly. In fact, there probably already exist videos of other people who have already pointed out the flaws in his arguments. If I had high-speed Internet here I would offer you links to the counter arguments, I'm sure they exist.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. To renounce it in favor of a belief in a blood-thirsty god who requires blood sacrifices before he can forgive people of their sins is simply unreasonable, IMHO.

Just offering my own personal thoughts.

You mean, the god in your religion fable demands this.

I personally do not believe that a truly all-wise all-powerful being would be so petty.

Therefore I reject the mythology as being utterly stupid.



I don't "debate" honey.

I just offer my views and opinions. If you care to "argue" with them that's your problem.

I'm not about to embrace ignorance and the abandonment of all that is reasonable to bow down to worship a male-chauvinistic bigoted jealous godhead who can't forgive people unless he is appeased by a blood sacrifice.

Why would I want to abandon sane thinking to plunge into a belief in such utter nonsense?

Science is proven, we're currently communicating through a media that exists because scientific knowledge is indeed proven to be true.

So there's no need to "debate" the truth of science. The truth of science is obvious. You're proving the validity of scientific knowledge as you communicate with me on these forums.

Yet, what are you suggesting to me? That I should abandon scientific knowledge in favor of worshiping a God who lusts for blood sacrifices before he can forgive people of their "sins"?

Oh please.

What's to debate?

What you are suggesting isn't even reasonable, IMHO.

I knew you wouldn't be satisfied about the evolution and the fact that science is not religion. But to be perfectly honest I really don't care.

I don't need to provide websites, science speaks for itself. It doesn't need my defense.



No, that's yet another Christian myth.

Yes, there is a THEORY of evolution, but all the theory does is suggest how it could have happened. Since the theory was proposed, the actual evidence has become overwhelming.

To deny that evolution occurred in favor of preaching an ancient fable would be no different from ignoring the fact that there are no Gods on Mt Olympus.

Your religion requires and demands that all human scientific knowledge is false and wrong. That places you in a position to prove your mythology, all the while I'm sure you'll be using the technologies provided science in an effort to support your fables.

The point I make is that there are spiritual philosophies and ideas that do not conflict with scientific knowledge.

Why should I even bother with a religious fable that requires I reject knowledge and truth?

What would be the point to that?

What should be my incentive for buying into your fable that has me at odds with my creator and in dire need or repentance that can only be had by condoning that God had to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for my horrible behavior?

I can't think of a single solitary reason why I would even want to place my FAITH in such an obscene idea.

So even if you were right and that science and religion were on equal footing, it would still make more sense to place my FAITH in science. At least science doesn't have me at odds with a God who has his only son nailed to a pole and demands that I CONDONE such a horrific act on my behalf.

Why would I want to place FAITH in that?

That's nothing short of GROSS, IMHO.

This is a problem with your religion, you need to ask people to become ignorant of scientific knowledge in order to believe in a God that they are supposed at odds with and the only way they can get to his LOVE is to condone a horrible act on their behalf.

I see no love in that religion at all.

I refuse to condone having anyone nailed to any poles.

So science seems like a far better place to place "Faith" even if that were the case, which it clearly is not. Science has proven itself correct without any shadow of a doubt.

No ShiningArmour that isn't true. That's a LIE that is perpetrated by Christian proselytizers. Christians will gladly lie to support their religion, unfortunately.

Science is firmly based on observation, evidence, and independent verification from other sciences who are actually out to prove the previous scientists WRONG. No scientist would love anything more than to prove other scientists WRONG. That will ultimately get you a Nobel Prize and instant fame and recogniztion throughout the world.

Christians not only attempt to show why they Bible could be wrong, but they give support to each other for the lamest of exuses and non-explanations.

No, science and religion are not on equal footing, that is a LIE that is perpetrated by religious zealots who refuse to even remotely consider that they mythology they worship as the "Word of God" might actually be false.



My post concerning the fact that the biblical myths have no more merit than the fables of Zeus were in direct response to another posters comment and thus are quite fitting in this thread.

If you'd like me to comment on whether or not the Biblical God cares about anyone other than himself my answer would be no. He's a self-confessed jealous God who, according to the mythology, hates everyone who doesn't like HIM.

If he were human we'd say that he's the most arrogant egotistical pig we ever met.

There's no room in the Biblical mythology for freedom of persona, you either agree with what the Hebrews say, or you're condemned as being a heathen whom God hates.

That's my opinion on the biblical mythology.

If the religion were true, it would have nothing to offer me.

My answers to this so-called jealous male-chauvinistic egotistical godhead would be the following:

1. No, I don't condone you having Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for my "sins".

2. No, I don't agree with all you concepts of what a "sin" should even be.

3. Yes, you may kill me at your whim, because I have absolutely no desire to serve you for eternity, nor do I love you, I personally think you're a jerk and an idiot.

So, even if the religion were true it would do me no good at all. I have no desire to worship an egotistical male-chauvinistic God for the rest of eternity, atheism would be a far better picture, IMHO.

Thankfully, there are far better pictures of spirituality that don't rely on mythology, and that actually are compatible with scientific knowledge.

The Eastern Mystical philosophy is certainly one of them. And I've already stated in this thread that the Eastern Mystical picture of a God is indeed a picture of a God who cares.

It's just that most people don't understand that picture is all. Everyone is too busy arguing atheism versus Zeus, or I mean, atheism versus Christianity. And the Christians like to keep it that way because they don't want to have to compete with other potential pictures of "god".

They prefer to keep everything very simple-minded. Either Christianity is true, or atheism is true, let's keep it simple.

But the fact of the matter there are far wiser and more profound pictures of spirituality to be had.

So, yes, my answer to THIS TOPIC is as follows:

Yes, God cares.

And No, the ancient Hebrew fables do not represent "God" any more than the ancient Greek fables did.

Satisfied now?

No ShiningArmour that isn't true. That's a LIE that is perpetrated by Christian proselytizers. Christians will gladly lie to support their religion, unfortunately.

Science is firmly based on observation, evidence, and independent verification from other sciences who are actually out to prove the previous scientists WRONG. No scientist would love anything more than to prove other scientists WRONG. That will ultimately get you a Nobel Prize and instant fame and recogniztion throughout the world.

Christians not only attempt to show why they Bible could be wrong, but they give support to each other for the lamest of exuses and non-explanations.

No, science and religion are not on equal footing, that is a LIE that is perpetrated by religious zealots who refuse to even remotely consider that they mythology they worship as the "Word of God" might actually be false.



My post concerning the fact that the biblical myths have no more merit than the fables of Zeus were in direct response to another posters comment and thus are quite fitting in this thread.

If you'd like me to comment on whether or not the Biblical God cares about anyone other than himself my answer would be no. He's a self-confessed jealous God who, according to the mythology, hates everyone who doesn't like HIM.

If he were human we'd say that he's the most arrogant egotistical pig we ever met.

There's no room in the Biblical mythology for freedom of persona, you either agree with what the Hebrews say, or you're condemned as being a heathen whom God hates.

That's my opinion on the biblical mythology.

If the religion were true, it would have nothing to offer me.

My answers to this so-called jealous male-chauvinistic egotistical godhead would be the following:

1. No, I don't condone you having Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for my "sins".

2. No, I don't agree with all you concepts of what a "sin" should even be.

3. Yes, you may kill me at your whim, because I have absolutely no desire to serve you for eternity, nor do I love you, I personally think you're a jerk and an idiot.

So, even if the religion were true it would do me no good at all. I have no desire to worship an egotistical male-chauvinistic God for the rest of eternity, atheism would be a far better picture, IMHO.

Thankfully, there are far better pictures of spirituality that don't rely on mythology, and that actually are compatible with scientific knowledge.

The Eastern Mystical philosophy is certainly one of them. And I've already stated in this thread that the Eastern Mystical picture of a God is indeed a picture of a God who cares.

It's just that most people don't understand that picture is all. Everyone is too busy arguing atheism versus Zeus, or I mean, atheism versus Christianity. And the Christians like to keep it that way because they don't want to have to compete with other potential pictures of "god".

They prefer to keep everything very simple-minded. Either Christianity is true, or atheism is true, let's keep it simple.

But the fact of the matter there are far wiser and more profound pictures of spirituality to be had.

So, yes, my answer to THIS TOPIC is as follows:

Yes, God cares.

And No, the ancient Hebrew fables do not represent "God" any more than the ancient Greek fables did.

Satisfied now?

Jesus said:

"For ye have the poor always with you;
but me ye have not always." Mat_26:11

Then Jesus beholding him loved him,
and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way,
sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come,
take up the cross, and follow me. Mar_10:21,

+ + + + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If we are concerned with the poor
we should do what we can to relieve it.
When catastrophies occur, these are opportunities
to show what we are made of.
Don't just talk about it and point fingers,
not at God.

Sorry, being well educated in the sciences I wasn't aware that people were still 'debating' these things.

There's no debate within the scientific community. I think the only people who are still holding out hope that science is wrong are the religious zealots who realize that if they accept the facts of life they'll have to abandon the stance that their ancient Zeus-like mythology can't possibly be true anymore than Greek Mythology was.

Reject scientific knowledge! Save a mythology!

I get it.