This question has been running around my head for quite some time, now, I'm an agnostic more or less because I don't know what happens when we die. However, I'm also a bit of a logical thinker and the entire 'heaven and hell' idea just escapes me.

Anyway, regardless of that. How, and I ask everyone this, does one really truly believe with all of the war, famine, and other man-made diseases that plague this world...that a God or Gods really cares? It is said that we are all sewn from the same fabric, in a sense we are all related according to the biggest Bible known to man. Adam and Eve, the forbidden fruit, so on and so forth.

God created the universe is how I recall the story going, each planet, solar system, star constellation, every single drop of this entire life. Then you have us, humanity, not anywhere near perfect.

So, if a God or Gods truly exist...what is humanities worth to it/them? What are we worth to a God or Gods in a universe that doesn't flicker when we die, doesn't cry when we are in pain, a universe that if this entire world was destroyed wouldn't shake or tremble one bit.

The logical side of me thinks that if a God or Gods truly created everything, I hardly think it or they really care if we die off given that we are such a minimal aspect of the entire universe and that everything outside of this world is perfectly crafted and stands out magestically when compared to earth.

I think God cares on a grander scale than we can truly grasp. I say this as a child myself whose parents allowed me to find my own way in m any things even when it lead to mistakes and pain, it was their way of letting me GROW and DEVELOP. I happen to believe that where man is concerned with his/her flesh and fleshly satisfaction, that God cares much more about our spiritual health and longevity. Even though he cares, he lets us choose our own path.


much like a parent might pay for the best education for their child in hopes that they will choose law school or medical school but still loves them just as much and cares just as much when they drop out to pursue tattoo artistry,,, I think God gives us resources to chose the path he wants for us while still allowing us to to make the choice ourself whether we take it

thats what I believe anyhow

Care to provide some evidence or is it 'just a feeling'? (This is not directed to the OP)

Well, the heaven and hell idea is most likely a man-made concept. The idea that a supreme being who is powerful enough and intelligent enough to create this entire universe is most likely not going to be interested in such petty things as "punishments and rewards" for individual egos.

So the main thing to realize is that if there is a "God" it most likely isn't going to have a petty egotistical persona like Zeus, or any other man-made legends.

The very concept of "God" is most likely far beyond our ability to even imagine. In fact, that's the idea isn't it? The very idea of a "God" is an idea of a being that is so far above us intellectually that we truly can't even begin to grasp its true nature. Heck, we can't truly even grasp out own nature much less that of an infinitely creative God.

So don't get bogged down by trivial mythologies when thinking about the possibilities.



Well, we are all related. There can be no doubt about that. In fact, we are not only related to all other humans, but we are also related to all living things on this planet, both animal and plant.

Moreover, we are even related to stuff we consider to be "inanimate". We are made of star stuff. We're made from dirt. We are also intimately connected to the planet and the entire biosphere actually. We all breath the same air, and in a very real sense you may as well consider trees to be a part of your body because without them you wouldn't be able to breath.

Sure we can make "artificial ecosystems" to keep us going using technology, but even then we are making those material form the same raw materials of the universe.

There is nothing that is not "us".

So yes, you don't need a creation story to tell us that we are all related. Science has shown us that this is far truer than we might have first imagined.

As far as war, disease and so on an so forth. Why consider those things to be bad? If we are ultimately spiritual beings then death is truly meaningless. Once spirituality is true, death becomes meaningless. Death only holds meaning in an atheistic universe.

If you like to think logically consider the following:

There are really own three "evils" in the world.

1. Death
2. Emotional Pain
3. Physical Pain

If our true nature is spirit then death is a "false evil" because no one ever truly dies. They just return to their original spiritual form.

Emotional pain it truly a choice. We choose to be emotionally distraught over things. Particularly seeing a loved one die (but again death would be an illusion if spirituality is true)

And of course, the physical pain is one thing that we truly seem to have no choice over. However, the human body has built-in shock mechanisms that cause people to pass out, or become numb, or whatever. It might be a great 'discomfort' and something that we consider to be 'undesirable' but even physical pain has its limitations. Is suffering truly as 'evil' as we think? Especially in a spiritual world where all of this physical life is just a momentary transient existence where are true nature knows no bounds in time? A human lifetime is but a blink of an eye in the face of eternity.



Nothing in the universe is "perfect". Humans are no exception to the rule one way or the other.

Also it's pretty clear that whoever created this universe did indeed choose to use evolution as the means of creation. The dice were set and tossed. The numbers that came up were random within the restrictions of the faces of the die. God knows what can and can't come up, but it's still a toss of the dice. That's how this universe is made. Let there be no doubt about that.



We aren't separate from God. That seems to be your line of thinking here. You are viewing yourself as being totally separate from God, like as if you are some sort of pet or something. Therefore you must validate your 'worth' relative to this separate being who supposedly created you for amusement, or whatever.

That's probably not how it works at all.

Think of "God" as "Them" and think of "Them" as "us".

Why did they create a physical universe with a random toss of the dice? To EXPERIENCE the result!

God experiences life THROUGH YOU!

That's your "worth" to God. Moreover, God's "worth" to you is that you cannot exist without God. EVER. For if you did then what would you be? Something OTHER than God? What would THAT be?

How could you be something other than God without being an entity in your OWN right? You'd have to be a God to be able to exist without a God. There's no two ways about it.



Humanity is nothing.

It's the experience of being human that is EVERYTHING.

See?

Well, not just being human, but being any conscious physical entity experiencing life.

If life were truly "perfect" and nothing could ever go wrong, or be wrong, then what would life be like?

You could never take a "risk" because there could be no such thing as "danger". Therefore you could never experience the triumph of victory or the agony of defeat.

There would be nothing to do, and no reason to do anything. Nothing could be 'challenging' in a perfect world because if there were obstacles to overcome it wouldn't be perfect, and without obstacles there can be no challenge. No sense of accomplishment. Nothing.

There could be nothing to do in a perfect world because if anything needed to be done the world wouldn't be perfect.

Would you eat in a perfect world? Eating in enjoyable. But having to deal with septic tanks is not. So maybe you'd eat and just not have to crap?

But then food could never be in shortage if you actually 'needed' to eat for energy. Because if food was in shortage that would be imperfect. In fact, to have to eat for energy is imperfect. Perfection would be to just have all the energy you need at anytime.

Do you see the problem with perfection?

Children? Why? If you need to procreate that can only be because people are dying off. And with no need to procreate there would be no need for children. Never any sense of newness! Never any sense of wonder or surprise!

How could you be surprised in a perfect world? That would imply that something happened that you weren't prepared for, and that would be imperfect.

So to create an exciting world the world must be imperfect.

How imperfect do you make it?

Well, look around. The limits are set. You can find some really great and wonderful experiences in this life, or you can find some really nasty experiences. And for the most part, the choice often can be yours. We've seen people rise from poverty and truly hopeless conditions to become rich, famous and powerful. It certainly can be done.

And people can go the other way too. Often due to their own choices as much as they prefer not to believe so.

Life is an opportunity. And it's only dismal if it's a one-shot deal. (i.e. if atheism is true)

But if spirituality is true, then it's not a one-shot deal. It's an everlasting experience because you TRUE NATURE is spirit. So nothing you see around you is as bad as it appears because it's all transient and none of it is permanent.

God needs no excuses for creation if we truly are eternal spirit.

Of course, if you're getting in to the idea of a God who keeps track of human egos and punishes some whilst torturing others then I can see your problem. Such a "God" would truly be petty. Even the souls who were permitted to become 'spiritual' would ultimately be losers because even they would permanently be nothing more than lowly pets to some far superior being(s).

The only spirituality that truly makes any sense is if all are spirit. Then it makes "perfect" sense.

So think mystically, instead of Zeus-like, when you think of "god" and things might make more sense.

After all, if the true nature of life is spiritual then you're a spiritual being. And it truly makes no sense to think that you could somehow be "separate" from spirit.

You're either spirit, or you aren't. There's nothing else to be.

Tat t'vam asi.

As an agnostic, I too wonder if a God really cares, given that Evil and lack of perfection exists. I rather think that if there is a godhead, it just created the universe to see where it would all go. And humanity is just another potentiality in the Great Experiment that will have to prove itself by clawing its way up the ladder of ascendancy to become one with its Creator(s). Or slip back down in the primordial soup of entropy, from which another race of beings will begin its ascent.

And maybe God herself is on just such a journey Herself.

Whatever is true, I fully feel that religion is just more human narcissism getting its fix by pretending it has to do nothing more than ask for ascendancy in the name of some mythical figures.

-Kerry O.

The easy answer is God gave everyone free will.If God was talking to us on a daily basis you would have the same people complaining that God should stay out of our lives and let us do what we want.So we got what we wanted and now people complain because God is not stopping this War from happening or stopping this bomb from going off.It seems people want God to be there for every problem they have yet disappear when they want to fight and complain,sleep around and get drunk,do drugs and be lazy,and every other thing God hates.Like most things in life you don't get it both ways.


Every good thing comes from God and every bad thing comes from Satan.This is written in the bible.It is also written that Satan has power over this world and he can bring misery to every person on this earth no matter how close to God you are.If something bad like cancer or death is happening to you or your family it isn't from God it is from Satan.Hurricanes,earthquakes and floods are not from God they are from Satan.People are always blaming the wrong person.


Can God prevent earthquakes,floods,diseases,etc?Can God stop Satan's power anytime he wants?Yes he can.But as said before if people want free will with out Gods help then they will not receive it and they will be at the mercy of Satan and all his misery.Those who want Gods help and those who rebuke Satan will receive Gods help if they are living a life the way they should be and doing what God is doing.However this does not mean that you will live a care free life with out any worries.Many times Christians have harder lives than most people because Satan loves to cause them grief.Satan has nothing to gain by causing a Atheist grief but much to gain if a Christian turns his back on God.So naturally Satan will cause as much grief and misery to Christians as possible.


Christians know the more they suffer and the more they lose the more they will be rewarded in the afterlife by keeping their faith.Many times hard ships and problems are a test of faith by God.Are you a real Christian?Do you really believe in what the bible says?If they keep their faith and if they continue to do what God says they will be rewarded many times over by what they lost.Any real Christian can tell you that.



Everything on this planet has a purpose and everything happens for a reason.If this world was free from problems and diseases it wouldn't be earth it would be more like heaven.How many diseases are from peoples own stupidity like smoking,over eating,doing drugs,and STD's?Probably the majority of them.If you do believe in God and God is warning you to not do these things because you may die(which the bible talks about over and over again)should you be surprised if you get cancer and die because you were a smoker?Don't blame God blame yourself.If everyone was eating the way the bible told you to eat,not having sex until marriage,not lusting,not getting drunk,not fighting or killing,not wanting other peoples things,honoring their parents,taking care of your body,helping the poor and others,and the thousands of things the bible says we should do what kind of world would we have?


In the Old Testament eating pork or shellfish was commanded by God not to eat.We now know that pigs are some of the most toxic animals you can eat and shellfish is very toxic and should not be eaten.Once again God is warning us but gave us the free will to do what we want.


You can not have compassion for someone if you have never experienced grief or a loss.We help others and we support others because we can relate to how they feel.If you have lived your whole life with out knowing misery,sadness,or grief you wouldn't want to help anyone for any reason and you wouldn't know what to say to them.A grown man would have the brains of a 4 year old when you explained to him how sad you were because your parents died or you lost your job.

That's not an easy answer. On the contrary it's no answer at all.

This answer presumes and basically requires that all humans, without exception complain that God should stay out of their lives, and that they all lust to do that nasty things that you claim God hates.

The fact of the matter is that everyone isn't like that. On the contrary most people are not like that at all.

Also for this to be an 'answer' requires that this sort of attitude is basically innate in the very concept of 'free will'. If that were indeed the case then no human could be held responsible for their attitude since it supposedly comes with their ability to have 'free will' in the first place.

In fact, this even flies in the very face of the concept of 'free will', because if they have no free will to do otherwise, then they genuinely don't even have free will.

You can't explain the 'evils' of the world away to a person who is bothered by them and trouble understanding why they exist, by simply demanding that all humans choose to be 'evil' because they have free will.

That's not going to work because the very person you are attempting to convey this too is obviously disturbed and distraught about the whole situation in the first place, and if they could truly exercise their 'free will' they would have none of the things you've mentioned in their lives, (i.e. fighting, sleeping around, getting drunk,doing drugs, being lazy,and every other thing God hates)

The very person whom you are attempting to push this concept onto also "hates" all of these things just as much as you claim that God supposedly does.

So it's an utterly absurd "explanation" from there perspective because they know it's not true for THEM.

In fact, if it appears to be true from your point of view, that can only be because deep down inside you must evidently lust to do all the things that you claim that God hates. Otherwise you'd fully understand why this so-called 'explanation' holds no merit.

Your explanation can only hold merit for people who truly do not want God in their lives and would prefer to partake in the things that God supposedly hates. But those people aren't going to be asking if God can truly exist, because obviously those people wouldn't even want a God to exist, because if God does exist they'd complain about it, remember?

The people who are concerned about whether or not God exists are people who genuinely WANT God to exist, and WANT the world to be a better place because they obviously already hate the same things that God supposedly hates.

These people are already in harmony with what a God should supposedly want.




Also, in this scenario you not only have a Good God, but you have an Evil God as well. Satan basically equates to an evil God who is competition for human souls. In fact, according to the Biblical stories Satan wins over far more souls that the Good God does.

In the Old Testament Satan won over the souls of so many people that the Good God had to flush the vast majority of humanity over to Satan via a Great Flood.

Later in the New Testament we have Jesus proclaiming that only few will make it into the kingdom of God, thus the vast majority must be won by Satan.

Satan is clearly the winner in this scenario, winning far more souls than the Good God.

Supposedly in the end the Good God gets "revenge" and destroys the Bad God Satan. However, its still a story of two Gods who were in competition for souls, and the Evil God clearly won the vast majority of souls. The fact that the Good God supposedly got "revenge" at the end of the game doesn't change the fact that he lost the vast majority of souls he created to the Evil God.

In order to believe in this kind of a God you must also believe in a Satan. A Satan who can clearly win over far more souls than the Good God, supposedly.

Such a creation would be an extremely inefficient creation. Moreover, the Good God would have need to create the "Bad God" Satan and SUSTAIN HIM throughout the whole scenario. In short, Satan could never be anything other than a facet of the Good God screwing over his own creation. In fact, for the Good God to have "destroyed" Satan in the end would require that Satan was something OTHER than God. But if that were true, then God cannot be all that exists. There must be OTHER entities as well.

~~~~

Therefore, IMHO, the only real way to deal with the concept of 'evil' is to recognize that it truly doesn't exist at all. Evil is nothing more than human judgments. Anything that we don't like we label as "evil". The very concept of "evil" is a man-made concept.

If the true nature of life is that all things are transient, and the true essence of our spirit can ultimately never be destroyed. Then in the Big Picture (i.e. the spiritual picture) there is no such thing as evil. All that exist is the illusion of evil (i.e. transient experiences that are perceived as being unpleasant at the time)

in the book of genesis if you read the first 2 chapters,there is 2 versions of how god created life,can't even make it past the first 2 chapters w/o contradiction.funny thing is theres like 200 different versions of why this mistake happened,so not only can you not figure out which way god created life now you have 200 versions to pick from on why it was a mistake.

some people have to believe that a mythical figure used his powers to create everything and not actually believe the ones now that actually work hard to show how everything is made,but to each their own.

oh btw i'm refereing to the real writings of the hebrew bible a.k.a.old testament not the rewritten versions

The ones now that actually work hard to show how everything is made?

And who might they be?

If you're referring to scientists I would argue that they haven't shown anything other than how the universe has 'unfolded'. Period.

Sure, they have indeed shown how the universe has 'evolved' and what causes it to evolve the way that it does. There can truly be no doubt whatsoever that the so-called "Big Bang" actually occurred, and has indeed unfolded as the cosmologists and physics have observed. They're observations are indeed far to perfect and observationally verified to be wrong. Anyone who truly understand physics, mathematics and cosmology knows that this universe has indeed evolved to it's current form, and that this evolution was no 'accident'.

It had to evolve this way GIVEN a few basic measured parameters that obviously exist and remain fairly constant and consistent.

However, can any scientist explain why space/energy itself has these specific properties? No they cannot.

And therefore they have not "shown" how everything is made. All they have "shown" is how it has all unfolded.

In fact, all of science rests on the very assumption and observation, that space/energy itself contains innate 'properties' that only permit it to behave in certain ways.

The "Laws of Physics" are innate to "quantum fields" that are not understood at all.

To even suggest that "Science" has any answers in terms of the fundamental nature of existence is truly naive.

Science is an 'observational discipline'. All science does, and can do, is observe and report on what has been observed.

Here's what scientists cannot tell you:

They cannot tell you why a bunch of random laws of physics that are apparently innate throughout all of space as far as we can see just happen to have the property of being able to form a universe that can evolve to produce ecosystems capable of evolving into extremely complex living structures that can actually perceive their own situation to the point of, not only questioning it, but investigating it to the point where they can even tell how they came to be over a period of some 14 billion years of evolution. Right back to within a microsecond of the birth of the very universe.

That's pretty wild.

And if you truly understand the physics of cosmology you'll know that if you choose the basic properties and laws of physics randomly you will produce a totally dead universe that isn't even capable of making stars much less humans. And you will do that the vast majority of time.

In fact, to hit upon the laws of physics that can evolve into a universe that's even remotely close to the one we see around us, is obviously an extremely rare event (if the laws of physics are merely random).

So actually, when I look at what science has discovered I see a big sign saying, "THIS UNIVERSE WAS NO ACCIDENT".

Of course that's not going to send me running off to worship Zeus.

But still, it's going to cause me to ask some far deeper questions. Questions that science clearly isn't even capable of addressing.

In short, the idea of using scientific knowledge and observations to dismiss a "mystical" cause of the universe, simply holds no water. If anything, that information and observations imply that something quite mysterious is indeed going on behind the scenes.

But again, that shouldn't send people running off to worship ancient legends of egotistical godheads. On the contrary, it should really give them more reason to look into the concepts of the various Eastern Mystic philosophies.

If a 'God' created this universe, then this universe is part of God. And since we're part of the universe we too are part of 'God'.

So actually religions that have us being something separate from 'God' that could be cast into a fiery pit of eternal damnation are clearly wrong. Those religions would require that we are something OTHER than God. But if we are something other than "God" then we'd need to be an entity in our OWN right. In other words, we'd have to be a "God" in our own right.

It's truly a shame that much of humanity is hung up on these two concepts.

1. There is a God and it's highly egotistical and separate from us.

2. Get over it. There is no God all that exists are laws of physics.

But few people seem to be willing to address the concept that perhaps all is mystical and spiritual and we are it. Period.

Even if the secular scientists are correct that our consciousness is nothing more than an emergent property of the spacetime energy. Then guess what? That means that we are that spacetime energy perceiving the emergence of consciousness!

And that's basically what the Eastern Mystics are trying to tell us.

Whatever it is that ultimately exists. That non-physical information field or domain from when whence all of the laws of physic emerge, is the cosmic consciousness which is our true fundamental nature. Because there is simply nothing else to be.

We are this universe. We are "God". Tat t'vam asi.

There's simply nothing else to be.

proof of what?

If God were perfect ..would he not have created the perfect world,well taking in the fact that the entertainment factor would have been way low..perhaps not,perhaps God isn't perfect and therefore couldn't create the perfect world..it's like who are you going to complain to any ways..

Perhaps something went very wrong in the evolutionary change,so God got tired of this experiment left it on a shelf and went somewhere else..maybe Hooters i hear the wings are good and the view of chicks in shorts and low tops do provide an entrtainment value..even if it is just daydreaming

..i mean after all he did invent boobies,and what guy doesn't like boobies...

gay guys, IM told

there s no god or devil or anything like that religion is a sham they only care about money and control i live in ireland and they really ****ed this country big time

i always love hearing your thoughts my friend. sorry, the long sebatical, and i'll try and stay in touch more, been quite busy. we've talked on this topic before, and you know my thoughts here...cheers mate!

The deist would argue that it's not so much that God doesn't care, but that he is simply to distant from creation to understand it or interfere with it.

subatomic particals,the evolution of man,dinosaur bones which prove life existed way before 6,000 years ago,carbon dating,cloning,stem cell research.the universe is one i have to say that a mythical figure couldn't have created it because who created him/her/it,oh i know hebrews.

biologist,archaeologist,astrologist,doctors,chemist,the ones who get their hands dirty and actually use their brains instead of just saying "GOD did it" or some higher being

my question to people are if god always existed then why couldn't the universe?

And thats one to grow on. . .

Well, you're speaking of one particular mythology, as well as one very fundamental interpretation of that.

I personally feel that the biblical stories are far too unwise to be describing a being that could have been capable of creating this universe anyway. I mean, those stories flunk on basic common sense, IMHO. No science required to reject them.



Well, the scientist that you admire have shown us that the universe as we know it hasn't always existed. So even if that were a possibility in general, it can't be applied to our universe. For all intents and purposes the Big Bang has been proven to have occurred beyond any reasonable doubt. Of course, the quantum fields and the foundation of the laws of physics that govern this universe may very well have always existed.

In fact, the very concept of time itself as we perceive it to be may very well be solely a property of this physical universe and may not even be a relevant or meaningful concept to something like a quantum field.

From a deeply philosophical point of view, you could say that our physical universe is a result of "information" that preexisted it. And the truly intriguing question there is to ask where and how that non-physical information exists.

Whether the universe always existed or a 'god' always existed is basically a moot point. Especially if the universe is nothing more than a facet of "god".

The way I look at it is like this:

Everything that is you belongs to this universe.

Everything that is you is a property of this universe.

If you are nothing more than this universe taking form, then you are obviously just a form of this universe.

In other words, there was never a time when you were not, nor will there ever be a time when you will cease to exist. All you can really do is change form, because you are this universe.

There is nothing else to be.

Sounds to me like your just hung up on a particular idea of a 'Zeus-like' egotistical God who 'creates things' external to himself somehow. Of course, that's the biblical picture as well.

Like I said before, I feel that it's an extreme shame that people seem to have this basic "ON/OFF" switch when it comes to ideas of God.

They either expect that a particular mythology must be true, or there must not be any such thing as a "god" at all.

How limited is that?

Why does it need to be one or the other?

There are far deeper possibilities.

And gee whiz, if we're going to consider the possibility of something as grand as an 'eternal spirit' why put such petty limitations on it?

If eternal spirit exists, we're it.

There is nothing else to be.

Unless you think in terms of meaningless dust (i.e. random atoms).

But if you're thinking that way, then what is it that is reading these words right now? Nothing more than a very large pile of atoms?

Why would those atoms be able to 'perceive' anything no matter how complex they have become?

How complex would a computer need to be before it actually EXPERIENCES the perception of THOUGHT.

And what would be experiencing that thought? The hardware? The software? Or the mysterious spiritware?

Something must be going on beyond the hardware and software. Something is perceiving the words on this screen other than the atoms that make up your brain.

What is that? Who are you?

Knock, knock. Anybody home?

Who's in there?

Come out, come out, whoever you are.