I have heard it said that God is moral and just, etc., etc.

How moral, just, good, etc. can an entity be all by itself?

I mean when you are the only entity in existence how can relative value be established to measure anything of a relative nature(morality, ethics, good, bad)without a 'community' of some sort?

Are u serious this early in the morning!

Someone created god in Man's image and it just went rapidly down hill from then on...

If you are all that is then you would have to be all of it.
Good...
Bad...
Indifferent...

Wow creative you are up early this morning huh? lol.

Morals......hmmmmmm, well considering men created god, morals are created by men. Men wrote the bible. I personally believe my morals are partially from taught material and the rest of my own experiences. I have revamped my taught morals though because I was taught that race mattered and sexual orientation matters and it does not in my association with others.

I am not all the way awake yet so that is the best I can do. I know it probably not as deep as you were trying to get but it is all for me for now

Good morning dragoness...

all...



Ah... it was just a thought

I am thinking that there is sound rationale in there somewhere...

It could lead one to another dimension of perspective...

To create something the creator must possess the 'material' of the creation.



Thought about another way...an extrapolation, of sorts...




Creation 'X' requires substance 'A'(evil).... substance 'B'(goodness),.... etc. etc.

If a creator is the only form of existance before all creation, then that creator must create with what 'it' is or has...

In this sense the creator must have had to possess whatever it gave to it's creation...and if the only thing in existance was the creator 'it' had to be all of these things in order to create any of them...

Well with this example, I would then say the entity would have to have both to create both. Which would then make the creator as confused and tempted as we are daily. Of course too I think of the god within, or god self with this thought, as in god is not a separate entity at all but a full part of each of us.

Absolutely...

There is no line between everything and nothing...

Both ends of any given spectrum must exist for either end to exist...

Good does not exist without bad...

Full without empty...

So on and so forth...

In our existance - yes. However, it does not necessarily reason out that opposites MUST exist, as it were, just the theory of them. If I fill a glass with water, and you walk into the room - you witness that the glass is full. It does not follow that it ever has to be "empty", nor have you ever experienced it as such. You know the potential of the "empty glass, but whether the glass was ever empty or not - or ever will be, is set within a time parameter. Your experience with having once seen a glass empty comes into play, and you extrapolate that onto the glass we have in the room. Suspend time - and your theory goes out the window. This could be the one time that a glass is never empty. But, obviously - that does not disprove emptiness as a opposite of full. So to refer back to your analogy of a creator "it" having to have these qualities. Not necessariliy so. He can be all good. Evil only exists because it is witnessed elsewhere, and extrapolated back to the all good creator. But it does not follow that the creator ever had to be, or have evil - or ever will.

It becomes difficult to force logic that exists within a time frame back to a being that exists outside of it. Also, good and bad relates to actions more readily than objects - whereas the converse it true about full and empty. They're not interchangable - nor necessarily related other than having "opposites" as their common factor.

Of course I do not believe in a God that meddles...which works quite nicely with the op...

I believe it is all out there, good and bad, and it is up to the one choosing to choose. One will manifest what one considers and focuses on the most... whatever that may be... Seek and ye shall find... good... bad... etc...

I truly believe there is much power in manifestation of thought and belief... just not in a 'personification of God' kinda way... not that I dismiss the power of hope and prayer... not even close... just that I have reason to believe the conclusions are often based on the falseness of individual doctrine...

What could be a reason for so many different people from different religions who all feel that their prawers are answered... Hmmmmmm.... and some with no embraced religious belief before that prayer...??????

I think all religion is unsound philosophy mixed in with a little history in an attempt to add some validity.

Eljay:

Our posts overlapped... I will read and consider your words now...

What does full mean without empty to compare it to?

All are concepts that only have relevance within the construct of this physical existence.

Outside of that, I suspect all exists in the great cosmic soup ... undefined.

The Patriarch Job said this:

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

There is a community.

God is not the same person as Jesus. One is a Father, the other a Son. Both Divine, but both different. Thus Jesus would ask if there was any way to avoid the beating and crucifixion. His will was different than that of the Father, but He submitted to the Father's will.

In addition there are millions of angels in the heavens that God lives and works with.

Art

I would ask you to think this one through. If Men created the God of the Bible, why didn't they create a god more conducive to human nature? You know--one more fun and user friendly.

Consider that if men created the morals of the Bible, then the people of the book created a god that they could live with.

They repeatedly failed to keep the laws in the Bible and eventually were punished for not keeping them.

So, imagine if men were going to create a god. They would never make a god that forbid fornication. They would never make a god who would require all those sacrifices and Sabbaths where they could not do their own thing.

If men were to create a god, it would be like the present man made gods. It would be Dionis, Santa Claus, Easter, and Samhain. It would be sex gods and alcohol gods--the ones we really worship today. It would never be anything like the God of the Bible.

In fact, no one on the forum dislikes Santa or Dionis. They like those gods. The only one they don't like is the one in the Bible because he is the one that does set a strict moral code.


Art

In the beginning...

there was only everything...

or nothing...

whichever you choose to use for description...


Eljay:

Everything is connected... where would you draw the line between existance and non-existance?

Time is a man-made construct...

Semantically we could get lost in any discussion...

Can you name me one moral value which exists without an opposite?

a God supposely have no role model that it could learn from as to what good and evil or right and wrong was

that's why no matter what the God did it would have nothing to do with morals

so called evil would only be created by the creations of the creator when the creations did not follow the laws that the creator created

Eljay:

You seem to be suggesting that God consists independently from evil?

Is that safe for me to say of your suggestion?



Art:

I would suspect that any description of 'God' that paints the concept into a corner is wrong...

No matter what it was...

As far as why the Bible was written like it was? Who knows really... It could be that it was not written by the average man... really, I believe that is a known...

To lay down rules, that is what I say. And to set parameters on living, and how to live and think. To keep the people civilized... which is not a bad thing...

Funches:

Can we think about that notion like this?...

How does one create rules against things that it has no knowledge of?

In order for a rule to be established, both what it takes to follow the rule, and what it takes to break the rule must be understood by the agent making the rule, and by the agent who follows it.

EDIT:

And I agree with your saying that no matter what a God did it would have nothing to do with 'morals'... absolutely agree...

You have been working those abs there Greek God.

This is the entire point. God decided what was right and wrong. He thought it through and then made it law. By way of example, before He created the universe and our earth teeming with life, He sought wisdom. He had to figure out how long a blade of grass would be, and how the ecology would fit together, what food would taste like and what lovers would experience.

Speaking of this wisdom, God tells us:

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

God thought it through seeking wisdom to determine how things would work. He did this before He created anything.

Art

I don't know Art...

When one begins to consider the notion that God 'thought everything through' before creating would that notion imply reason?

But without experience reason does not exist...does it?

I mean one must have something to hold in comparison.

Do you hold to the claim of an omniscient God, who would already know what would happen?