Hey Miguel...

I believe in the existance of wrong answers... not wrong questions...

I agree with your statement concerning 'love'... absolutely...

then my friend we have agreed in the most important thing

To establish a starting point I have posed a question.
Is God omniscient(all-knowing), omnibenevolent(all-good), and omnipotent(all-powerful)?

I am not sure I do know this then. I do feel God is all knowing. I do feel that God knows us from the time we are in our mother's womb....I also believe that God is all good and all powerful....But then when I look at the context of what Art says....I am not sure I understand the way that creative intends these questions....and I would like Art to explain it to me. Because I thought we were just talking about God....here....not God in relation to humans.....so please explain.....

Hey?

Who am I to argue?

That is what I was saying all along...

I wonder how many 'believers' will go along with the notion that 'God' is...

Not all-powerful...

Not all-knowing...

Not all-good...

Not perfect...

That would be an interesting thing...

Hmmmmm... what could one surmise from that?

Wow... that gives a whole new outlook 'based' on the Bible huh?

I have a pantheistic view of God. This means that God is everything.

So now the question, “Is God all-powerful?”

Yes, in the sense that God is all the power that exists. That is to say that there is no power that exists that is beyond God. In this way God is all-powerful.

Does this mean that God can do anything at all? No. It simply means that God can do anything that is possible within the limitations of God power. Just because God is all the power that exists, doesn’t mean that God can do just anything.

I always give the analogy that God created a universe like a pair of dice and then tossed those dice. Within that framework anything can come up that is on the face of those dice. But things that are not on the face of those dice cannot come up. Just like when we throw a pair of dice, the only thing that can come up is 2 thru 12 or the whole numbers in between.

Well maybe God has a similar kind of limitation. Maybe there are only certain things that God can do. For example, God can’t roll a 13, or a 4 and three-quarter. God can only roll whole numbers.

Now some may say, well then God is restricted. But maybe the numbers that aren’t on God’s dice simply don’t exist. It’s not that God can’t play them, it’s that no one can play them! It’s not like there is anything God can’t do that some other entity can do.

God isall-powerful in that God can do whatever God can do. And if God can’t do it, then it can’t be done. So it’s not like doable things are out of God’s reach. If God can’t do them, they just aren’t doable to begin with.

And for me, one of those things are knowing the future. Even God can’t do that because that’s just not doable.

So in this way, there are things God can’t do, but does that mean that God’s not all-powerful?

I guess that all depends on a person’s subjective definition of what they mean by all-powerful.

Now to the question of “Is God all-knowing?”

Again, it depends on what a person means when they ask the question.

Can God know the future? I say no. Because the future hasn’t happened yet and therefore it’s not yet knowable.

But does this mean that God is then not all-knowing? I think God is all-knowing in the sense that God knows everything that is knowable. We are God, we are this universe. Therefore God knows every thought and every experience of every humans, and every animals, and possibly even “feels” that stimuli that plants receive.

God is this universe, in this way God knows everything we know. We don’t know what we will do next, so neither does God. But we can have a good idea of what we are likely to do. We also know what we are planning to do, so God knows these things. God knows our every thought. God knows what we are likely to do. And if we have a sudden change of heart then God is just as surprised about that as we are!!!

If we are surprised then God is surprised because God experiences everything that we experience.

This is why God created us. This is God’s “Master Plan”. Just to experience life through us. No master agenda required.



Those concepts are entirely subjective. What is your definition of good? What is your definition of perfect.

I think God could be “perfect” and not have created a “perfect” universe. Or to put that another way,… maybe God thought that by creating boogiemen the universe would be more interesting. Maybe God felt that a ‘perfect’ universe would be boring and therefore ‘imperfect’.

If we go watch a movie and it’s just a movie of people doing normal every day thing with no risk involved we aren’t likely to be inspired to go watch it again. Maybe God had created perfect worlds and after experiencing them God thought that they were too boring so God decided to create boogiemen this time around to make the experience more interesting.

What would be a ‘perfect’ football game? It ends in a tie? Even if it ended in a tie, would it be worth watching if no one ever scored? As soon as one team scores, the other team is “down”. That’s not ‘good’ to be down.

Do you see what I’m saying? Without risk of losing something life has no meaning!

So is a life that contains the ability to lose things really imperfect? Or would a life where it’s impossible to ever lose anything be imperfect?

How can life be ‘rewarding’ if there’s nothing to strive for? And if there’s anything at all to strive for then there must be something to overcome. And if there is something to overcome then whatever that something is, we call that thing evil.

Right now I’m trying to overcome the religion called “Christianity”, so for me Christianity represent evil.

Very good point Art! Thank you for pointing that out.

I think the same thing was true with the story of Job. If God already knew how Job would respond to his test, then why bother testing him at all?

Although, I still have extreme problems with the story of Job. Because here’s a story of a man who was completely devoted to God in every way, yet God did not accept that. God had to test him. Although, it actually suggests that Satan was the one who questioned Job’s loyalty. But none the less, why would God care what Satan thinks? Why not just tell Satan to go jump in a lake?

Why does God feel that he needs to prove anything to Satan?



It seems that supporters of the Bible are in the same boat then. Most supporters of the Bible do believe that God is all-knowing. In fact, it’s that popular notion that I jump on! I’m not sure whether it actually says that God is all-knowing in the Bible somewhere or not. I wouldn’t be surprised if it does. I know that it says that with God all things are possible. So that in a sense seems to suggest that God an do anything and if he can do anything then he must certainly be able to know the future. But that’s a matter of interpretation.

I think you do have a lot of things different from many who claim to believe in the Bible.

However, your bottom line still seems to be the same old story. Man is responsible for the world being imperfect, and that God is somehow in a battle with the Devil (or evil forces) and will ultimately win.

I don’t buy into either of these two notions.

Here’s one major problem,… Consider this,…

In the beginning God is all there is (except perhaps the trinity if you believe that this is the true nature of God.

But the point is that God must be all there is in the beginning. If this is not the case then the religion is not monotheistic and there must be something else that exists along side God that is not God. That would require that the religion be polytheistic.

So we begin with a monotheistic God. Even if its true nature may be Trinitarian.

So now God creates whatever,… Angles, devils, boogiemen, mortal men, animals and so forth.

Then he has this long drawn out human saga. Where there is apparently some sort of ‘battle’ going on between God and some of the spiritual entities that God created whilst mortal men are stuck in the middle.

Let there be no doubt about this because the whole idea of Jesus being crucified was to somehow ‘defeat’ the devil. His crucifixion was supposed to be the demarcation of God’s triumph over the devil (which is kind of silly since there was never any question about who was going to win the battle in the first place!)

For some reason, even though the battle has already been won, it’s still not over yet. This is really weird!

But soon (hopefully tomorrow morning!) Jesus will come back to earth to finally have his victory party. At that time he will round up all the losers! (his enemies) and cast them into the lake of fire. Then rein over all the winners who will be confessing that he is their lord and savior on their knees!

Ok, here’s the WHOLE PROBLEM with this whole fairytale!

If God was all there was in the very beginning, then everything that God created had to come from God. Therefore in the end if there are any losers who are cast into the lake of fire. Who they hell were they? And where did they come from???

Obviously they must have been part of God since in the beginning God is all there was.

Is God cutting himself up into little pieces of separate evilness to be cast into a lake of fire???

This is the problem with a monotheistic God who creates evil.

If God is all there is, then God himself must become whatever evil creatures he creates.

In the pantheistic view there is no evil. God is all there is. When life is over all return to God. No one can be separated from God because there is nothing else to be but God.

It’s a complete picture with no theological paradoxes.

maybe what is is just what is and we continue to struggle to find answers that dont exist and that alot of the concepts that we base our religion on are man made and that is why proof doesnt exist ..maybe our universe is no more than a dust bunny under a rug but being thats all we know and that working with a limited intelligence we believe it to be a whole lot more because we want to believe that we have this great importance in the universe and that concept would completely blow our mind ..but if you consider how vast our universe is we are rather small like an atom to the human body...just a thought...

I don’t believe that humans have any special importance!

That’s my whole point!

Humans are any more important than anything else.

But at the same time we aren’t any less important either.

And that’s the concept we all need to grasp.

Everything in the universe has equal importance with respect to the universe itself!

The Great hump back whales are just as important to the universe as we are!

And for me, this is the huge difference between a pantheistic philosophy versus a biblical-based philosophy.

Pantheism places all of creation (all that exists) at the center of creation!

Creation itself is the goal! Creation itself is the center of God’s focus.

The biblical-based religion puts the spotlight on man.

Not only is man responsible for having fcked everything up, but he’s also the focal point and reason for creation!

What an oxymoronic religion!

It places man as a pathetic failure and disappointment of God as the focal point of creation.

If you think about that, it really is fuel for a belly laugh is it not?

I mean to think that we are so arrogant to create a religion that places us simultaneously in the position of being the very purpose of creation and the very idiots that screwed it all up.

Come on people!!!

This is hilarious!

mankind is a disease we have the ability to improve on things but yet all we know is take ..i watch the squirrels as the plant their acorns in the ground are thaey hiding or storing food or is it within their thought process that with the acorns they forget to dig up or dont dig up there is an underlying purpose in knowing that a tree will grow for their future generations ...i believe we have the ability to contribute a whole lot more for future people and animals but that we are only sated by our own greed on the other hand i have a problem with this whole God concept in whether any religion is correct i mean after all with the bible being written by man was there an underlying reason back in the day to say i have talked to God and this is what he said ..because to believe in the bible one has to believe in men that ive never met wrote and in the end i dont trust anyone so what is there to believe ...just a thought

Art you have gived a very bad analogy...because do parents impregnant their children like God did to Mary do parents sacrifice their children to die like God did to Jesus do parents remain unseen in their children life and live away in others dimensions like God does to his children do parents threaten to set their children on fire forever like God does to his children ...the list goes on and on

When you all have it figured out...lemme know. LOL.

it's called living the fantasy

Um.... where is the divinity in a God without integrity?

I think it is time to lose the 'being' aspect...ya think?

to lose the "being" is to change the belief ..who is there to dictate to a God what integrity is when the God is the Father and creator of Integrity

Integrity lacks to those that do not follow the laws of the God

Dear Art,

"Do you think that the distribution of Christian values is the dumbing down of the personal values of the Hindus who drink urine and put cow dung on their heads?"

-I'm not talking about the distribution of christian Values, rather the distribution of Beliefs (christian or other) that are founded on books written by Men. Much the same way that you apparently think Hindus are silly, illogical people...



"the terrible stuff you see on Fox News and don't like about our life today."

- The fact that you refer to Fox News as a source of truthful information...

Understanding God's Being

The Bible reveals the nature of God as a spirit unity, and trinity. God's attributes are merely words we use to describe how God is and how He acts toward us. Among these attributes are love, holiness, constancy, justice, truth, eternality, omniscience (all knowing), omnipresence(all present), and omnipotence (all powerful). The fact that we can grasp and understand this much about God is evidence of God's desire that all peoples may know Him.

Holiness of God

Our greatest failing is in not realizing who God is and what His character is like. God is NOT human. He is God, and as such there is an infinite gap between the highest in us and the lowest in God. The gap between God and us in unbridgeable from our side. If the gap is to be bridged, it must be from God's side for God is holy. To be holy means "to be set apart" God is set apart from the power, practice, and presence of sin, and sin if we are to approach God, we must do so on God's terms. Somehow, we must be made holy just as holy as God is. Any holiness which falls short of God's holiness will not be able to stand in the presence of God. As Christ died for our sins, having taken them upon Himself, and has set us apart from them. This is the position before God which will never change. The only way to the Father is through the Son.

Illumination of God's Word

Illumination is the last of three important steps taken by God in communicating His Word to us. The first step was revelation which occurred when God spoke to the Bible authors. The second step was inspiration, that process whereby God guided them in correctly writing or uttering His message. But now a third step is needed to provide understanding for men and women as they hear God's revealed and inspired message. The vital step is illumination, that divine process hereby God causes the written revelation to be understood by the human heart. (meaning that if you are reading this as just a book, you will never get the meaning nor understand it)

This third step is needed because unsaved man is blinded both by his fallen, fleshly natures, and by satan himself. Illumination is needed to help fully grasp the marvelous message of God's Word. Paul tell us that the Holy Spirit will show these tremendous truths to us as we read Scriptures.

Commitment

Dedication is the foundation of commitment. Without it the believer is unable to offer God anything else. Paul explains this dedication process in Romans 12:1 and 2.

Knowing the Will of God Through Circumstances and Counsel.

God often works through circumstances in revealing His perfect ill for us. Certainly Paul's wonderful statement, "God causes all things to work together for good to those who Love God"

a. God directed Abraham to substitute a ram, whose horns had somehow become entangled in a thicket, for the life of Isaac (his son)

b. God arranged for Pharaoh's daughter to be bathing in the river Nile at the exact time the baby Moses floated by.

c. Paul's young nephew happened to overhear a plot to kill his famous uncle. he then reported it to the authorities, thus saving the apostle's life.

So I feel that when people get that "feeling" or intuition, it is God speaking to you. The problem is most human beings ignore it.

I think this all comes down to what you mean by “God”.

If you can only associate that word with the idea of a separate egotistical entity, like an external magical Santa Claus that somehow exists outside of the universe and watches over us like we are some kind of personal pets of his, then there very well may be no God.

Moreover, if that is the true nature of God is that really desirable? If you can imagine any possible scenario for existence would you prefer that picture over others? Would you really want to be nothing more than an external pet to an all-powerful so-called “God” who demands that you worship and serve him or go to hell?

Is that picture really the best ultimate dream? Moreover, would that picture be a “God” to everyone? Clearly for the people who are being sent to hell such a God would appear to be a demon! That picture of God is only attractive to the people who are willing to bow down and worship it and do its bidding.

Personally I’m not attracted to that picture of a God. Not because I’m inherently evil or want to do things that this God supposedly doesn’t like. That’s not the case at all. Even if I agree with this God in everything it likes it’s still not the “best” picture that I can imagine.

Why would I want to be a mere pet of an all-powerful being for the rest of all of eternity? What kind of an existence would that be?

Also, if God was all there was in the beginning, and I am not God, then what they hell am I? Where did I come from if not from God?

The whole idea of an ‘external God’ implies that there is something other than God. That is to say that if God is external to something, then whatever God is external to, that thing is also external to God!

If we are not God, then we are something other than God.

This is the problem with an external God. God can’t be external to anything, because as soon as God is external to something that means that whatever God is external to must also be external to God. In other words, we can exist outside of God. That would be that we are completely separate entities in our own right.

God can’t be external to anything. That very thought is polytheistic. Because if God is external to something, than that other thing, whatever it is, is also a God in it’s own right.

So the only real way to imagine a God is to imagine that God is everything. We are a manifestation of God. God is everything.

You might then say, well if there is no central all-knowing ‘godhead’ there is no God.

Well, that’s just a definition.

If we say that God is everything, then in a sense there is a ‘godhead’ and that godhead is the totality of everything that exists. Some prefer to think of it more in terms of an energy, or mind. To really understand this concept of God we need to move away from thinking of God as an individual Santa Claus-like person. God is an ‘entity’ that is beyond our comprehension.

God creates us as a manifestation of his mind. And I even hate to use the pronoun “his” because that gives the impression that God a ‘person-like’. But many people like to think of God as person-like. After all, this is the only thing that we can comprehend. We can’t comprehend God’s true nature because we have no direct experience with God’s true form. So the idea of a person-like entity is all we have to fall back on.

God creates us as a dream in his mind. But we are not the dream! We are the dreamer! Yes, we ultimately are God. We are this entity that we don’t understand. This comes from the fact that nothing can be external from God. We are a manifestation of God. We are part of God, and in this way we are God. But within the manifestation of this dream we are limited to being just part of God. We have placed this limitation on ourselves.

This is how God creates the illusion of the universe, but not allowing his left hand to know what his right hand is doing! It is a mystical idea, this is why it is often referred to as ‘mysticism’. But it’s certainly no more outrageous than the idea that we are all external pets of an separate egotistical Satan Claus!

On the contrary I think the idea that we are all manifestations of God makes much more sense than to think that we are separate external disposable pets of an egotistical Godhead.

God is our essence. We are manifestations of God. We came from God and we will return to God. In this way we are eternal. What better picture of God could there possibly be? Here’s a picture of a God where God cannot abandon you. God’s love for you truly is unconditional. There is no way that God can turn his back on you! You are God! Or at least a manifestation of God.

God experiences everything you experience. God does not expect you to experience anything that he cannot handle himself! After all, in the bottom line you are God!

God has built-in safeguards to life. If you experience more pain than you can handle you go into shock. If your physical body gets too decrepit you die!

All emotional pain is your own judgment. Everyone ultimately has control of their own emotional pain whether they admit it or not. If someone close to you dies or is hurt, the amount of emotional anguish you put yourself though is entirely self-inflicted. Emotional “pain” doesn’t even really count in the big scheme of things, because all emotional pain is ultimately what we choose to inflict upon ourselves.

That may sound harsh, but it’s true. Emotional pain is caused by thoughts, and ultimately we really do have control over our thoughts whether we admit it or not. So physical pain is the only ‘real’ pain in life. And even that is often amplified by how we choose to react to the stimuli that is causing the pain. Accepting it makes it much easier than if we fight it. The less we are willing to accept it, the worse it is.

And let’s face it. Those are the only genuine evils in life. Physical and emotional ‘pain’. There are no other ‘evils’.

But if we had no ability to perceive pain then we’d have no ability to perceive pleasure! What kind of an existence would that be? No pain, no pleasure, no nothing! No sensations to pass judgment on. For if you have any sensation at all, you’re going to need to decide whether you like it or don’t like it, and that decision will determine whether you consider that sensation to be pleasure or pain.

This is the pantheistic view of God.

And you might ask, “But what about morals?” If I’m God that means that I can do anything I want! There is no one ‘external’ to judge me!!!

So fine. Let’s assume this is true! What is it that you want to do? Do you want to go around inflicting physical and emotional pain on others? Is that what you really want to do?

Is the only reason that you don’t do that is because you think a God-like Satan Claus will think you are naughty?

I think it’s pretty sad if the only reason people need a God is so they can convince themselves to behave.

That’s certainly not my motivation to believe in a God.

Moreover, if you genuinely believe in the pantheistic view, then you know that to hurt another is to ultimately hurt yourself, because we are ultimately ONE. We are all God. We are all the spirit of this universe experiencing life.

So to hurt other people is to hurt ourselves. It’s just plain stupid.

There do seem to be nasty people in the world who do get off on hurting others. This is part of how God manifests the spirit into the universe. Some humans are genuinely born mentally ill. Let there be no doubt about. God creates boogiemen! And then God becomes them!

Why? Again, it goes back to giving life meaning. If there were not boogiemen life simply wouldn’t be nearly as interesting and rewarding as it is. Having risks, and boogiemen to deal with in life is what makes living life a challenge. If life isn’t challenging it becomes boring.

If you watch TV you might think that 90% of the world is made up of boogiemen! But TV is a gross misrepresentation of reality. In truth much less than 10% of the world’s population are “boogiemen”. And less than 2% of those are seriously violent boogiemen, the others are just annoying boogiemen. But in reality 90% of the worlds population are nice people. That’s the truth. If watching TV depresses you then shut it off. The TV itself is a boogieman!

The problem with this idea is that it wouldn’t apply to people like CreativeSoul who is genuinely interested in knowing God. If CreativeSoul thought God was talking to him he would LISTEN!

Also, I certainly get a good ‘feeling’ and intuition that God is very pleased with my Pantheistic vision of God, and with my denunciation of the biblical picture of God. I denounce the biblical picture of God because I see it as being very negative and detrimental to humanity as a whole. I can toss a Bible in a burn barrel and feel God smiling down on me as though I just did her a huge FAVOR!

I don’t believe in an external Santa Clause-like God. I don’t believe that God is an external being at all. I believe that God lives within me.

In order for me to abandon God would need to abandon myself! That’s certainly possible. Many people are untrue to themselves and therefore they are untrue to God. One of the great philosophical sayings is that we must be true to ourselves! We must love ourselves. To love yourself is to love God.

But you need to know who your true self is!

It’s true that people confuse their egos with their true self! If you love your ego then you are indeed abandoning your true self (and therefore abandoning God). But this doesn’t mean that you are separated from God. That’s not possible. Even if you fall in love with your ego that doesn’t change your true nature. You can’t become an ego. The ego is the illusion of the physical thinking brain. The ego WILL DIE when the brain dies and the spirit will always return to its true essences.

What the Bible would like us to believe is that we can actually become our ego! That we can actually become separate from God, and therefore we’ll die when our ego dies. But that’s impossible, because the dreamer can never become the dream. The dreamer must always ultimately awaken to its true nature.

And our true nature is that we are a manifestation of God.

So I feel that when people get that "feeling" or intuition, it is God speaking to you. The problem is most human beings ignore it.

The problem with this idea is that it wouldn’t apply to people like CreativeSoul who is genuinely interested in knowing God. If CreativeSoul thought God was talking to him he would LISTEN!

ANSWER: If CS is intersted in getting to know God and he listens....then why wouldn't it apply to him......Also as I said before in the post.....If this is not done exactly as God wants...then it doesn't matter how much you want it....It will never happen if you take in the most minute part of God's plan out of the equation.

Also, I certainly get a good ‘feeling’ and intuition that God is very pleased with my Pantheistic vision of God, and with my denunciation of the biblical picture of God. I denounce the biblical picture of God because I see it as being very negative and detrimental to humanity as a whole. I can toss a Bible in a burn barrel and feel God smiling down on me as though I just did her a huge FAVOR!

ANSWER: Well I guess your going to have to see how that works for you.

I don’t believe in an external Santa Clause-like God. I don’t believe that God is an external being at all. I believe that God lives within me.

ANSWER: Well something does......jk.....again thats your beliefs...and you surly are entitled to them.

In order for me to abandon God would need to abandon myself! That’s certainly possible. Many people are untrue to themselves and therefore they are untrue to God. One of the great philosophical sayings is that we must be true to ourselves! We must love ourselves. To love yourself is to love God.

ANSWER: Well again don't agree......for me I would never put myself on the same level as God....and if you do at least for me you are saying that you are God....And God's worse pet peeve is to love no other Gods.......

It’s true that people confuse their egos with their true self! If you love your ego then you are indeed abandoning your true self (and therefore abandoning God). But this doesn’t mean that you are separated from God. That’s not possible. Even if you fall in love with your ego that doesn’t change your true nature. You can’t become an ego. The ego is the illusion of the physical thinking brain. The ego WILL DIE when the brain dies and the spirit will always return to its true essences.

ANSWER: But your ego sure as heck can stop you from learning and knowing the truth as God's sees fit.

What the Bible would like us to believe is that we can actually become our ego! That we can actually become separate from God, and therefore we’ll die when our ego dies. But that’s impossible, because the dreamer can never become the dream. The dreamer must always ultimately awaken to its true nature.

ANSWER: Again that is so far from the truth. Did you not care to read any of my posts......it looks like not. And your true nature can be manipulated and if you think this not to be true...then your in a big time denial.....It's easy to say hey....this is how "I" think it should be....this is how "I" think that God is. This is how "I" think the universe works....but my dear friend that is not. When you can take the "Me", "Myself" and "I" out of the equation then maybe you would begin to grasp the infinite wisdom of what God wants of us. And if you think taking the Bible out of the picture is the answer.....well ok for you....but again this is God's rule book so to speak.....And anyone who thinks that they can mess with what God wants.....hmmmm well again your choice.