Art:

You said:
******* So, did you read those verses that I posted in which God defines Himself? Or did you just bypass them because they were from the Bible and you don't like the Bible? I don't understand why you don't remember this.*******

>>>>>>> Art perhaps it would surprise you to know that I did, moreover and that I have read the Bible, and still do on frequent occasion. You are mistaken when you say that I do not like the Bible. Not true.I asked if you could describe 'God', not if you could qoute another's description of 'God'. I asked if you could define 'God'? Which you answered noone should attempt, and that was the problem today...

Why was that not the problem then? <<<<<<<

I have read this post again from beginning to end. If what Art said doesn't get you to re-think or at least look at the Bible in a different way.....Then I am afraid that in that lies the truth. As I have stated in many many posts.....If you refuse to look at the possibility of the Bible being the Laws that establish firmly what God's plans for us are......then you will always be blind to the truth that he has set forth.

Matthew 12:25

At this time, Jesus answered and said, "I praise Thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babes."

And again I say to you, no one will come to the Father except through their own willingness......This is why He Father God gave all human beings free will.

Ok, you believe that. But what has that got to do with reality? Or, considering it on another level, do you have any evidence of this? Can you prove it?

I mean think for a minute. Is there any thing else in the entire universe that fits your definition? Is there anything you can find on earth that is everything and nothing? Can something be something and nothing?

This is amazing to me, the lengths we will go to reject God. We make up our ideas, they have no basis in fact, cannot be proven and there is no evidence for them. We believe this rather than what there is evidence for. It is so weird to me.

Here is another one you might want to use some time. I remember my physical science teacher in college. He read us a theory of the beginning of the universe that some PHD had written. The author of the article said. "Somehow, nothing tunneled through to Something." Wow! That is so erudite, so smart, and so stupid.

You understand, it is not really smart and stupid. But, the person who wrote it thought they were smart when in fact they were stupid. It also cannot be both.



God is not everything simultaneously. Who told you that? Where did you get such an idea? Is God in the heroin addicts needle, and in the drug that he shoots? Is He in the HIV infected person having sex with someone else's mate?

God is not everything simultaneously. He is holy. That means He is pure, not tainted with evil. He is not in those places, and He is not on this earth. He is in heaven. By way of example, He visited Abraham, but sent angels into Sodom to see if what He had heard from reports was true or not.



It is all wrong. Knowledge does not require experience. You don't have to do wrong to know it is wrong.

I get a kick out of the atheists who proudly state that they have formed morals and they have ethics without God. But, they don't even realize that they were created with a conscience. It is so funny. How could a conscience evolve?

Anyway, they say there is no God and we don't need God because we can determine right from wrong. The only reason they think they can make such decisions is because they were created with a conscience. But, you get the point. You or anyone else can know right from wrong without doing the wrong.

Art

This is a very common and quite empty accusation.

The idea is to claim that people are simply refusing to believe that the Bible is the word of God. If they could just accept that it is the word of God they could see that it is truth.

This is totally not true.

Every time I read the Bible I consider it as being the word of God. And I ask, why would God be like this?

And the answers make absolutely no sense to me. (That’s far from the idea that this perspective will enable me to see truth)

Then I read the same thing over again imagining that it is the rambles of man and it makes perfect sense!

So I’m stuck with the following choices,…

If God wrote the Bible it makes no sense at all.

If man wrote the Bible it makes perfect sense.

So which should I chose to believe???

Your claim that I refuse to consider that the Bible was actually written by God is totally without merit. I consider that possibility all the time. It simply never makes any sense. And the alternative (and more likely scenario) that man made these stories up, always makes perfect sense.

I also ask you very sincerely why would the creator of this universe send his “only begotten son” to be born of a mortal woman and live among men, when this very scenario had been described many times before by manmade mythologies.

Why???

Why would God copy the very same scenario that had previously been described by men in their own mythologies?

None of that matters. It’s the sequence of events that is wrong in the Bible. The authors of the bible got it all wrong. God wouldn’t have screwed up the story about his own universe.

I prefer to look at it like this.

The universe was written by the creator. There can be no doubt about that. The Bible was clearly written by men, the only question there was whether or not they were inspired by a higher power when they wrote it.

If you grab the Bible and believe in it, then you are putting your faith in man.

If you become a scientist and study the universe then you are putting your faith in God.

No one denies that God wrote the universe.

If there is a conflict between what is written in the Bible and what is written in the universe it would be silly to believe the Bible over the universe.

If you chose to base your life on a book written by men, so be it.

I choose to put my faith in God.

Hello

I don't see this as a rejection of God but rather a rejection of a biblical definition that does not seem to fit. There are many traditions outside of Christianity which speak of God.

If our relationship with God is indeed a personal one should our understanding not also be personal?

There seems to be this notion that if, for example, my definition of God does not fit the prescribed one allowed by the bible that my view is wrong. I would suggest rather than my perspective has broadened to encompass a more wholistic view based upon study and experience. It is what resonates and sits well within me ... just me. We all have our own path back to our source.

There is often an assumption made, and I see it here in relation to creativesoul and abra (I use them as examples as I know both men), that there is a desire to denounce God or that they fail to or are incapable of understanding Christianity and its basis. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't see why it has to be science or God. Religion and science both are trying to describe and understand the same thing...the nature of the universe. I suspect when you get beneath all the dogma that both views are not so far apart.





I absolutely agree.

We live in a world that seems pretty real. I trust that the table at which I eat dinner is solid enough to hold the plate. Yet, at a quantum level what is really there? Tiny particles and a whole lot of empty space - anything but solid. And at a deeper level there are even smaller particles with even more space... bits of which flit in and out of 'our' reality.

Everything and no-thing at the same time...depending upon my perspective at the time.

The God of my belief is in a state of constant creation. It is not an ego in the sky....a separate 'thing' ... it is the source of everything which comes into physical reality. The source of all holds the potential of all things ... but it is undefined ... a no-thing ... until it is manifested into the physical world.


Sorry if I went off on a tangent creative ... you just had me thinking ...

This has always been the problem from the beginning of creation. This is what led to the war in heaven. This is the reason why we have war, sickness, and famine on the earth today. This is why crime exists. This is why people are so unhappy they drink to excess and take drugs to numb the pain from this life. It is because we do not accept God on His terms.

For example, Ok, you like the Bible, but you also like certain soda. You like certain TV programs, and certain foods. Your likes have nothing to do with God. The Bible is not there to be liked. It is not there to make you feel good.

It is to correct us. It is there to reprove us. It is to teach us how to live. That Bible speaks with authority. You reject that part. You even say I quoted another's definition of God. But, it was not another's, it was God's definition of Himself. So, you pick and choose what you like and don't like about God and His Word.

To me, you seem to reject the authority of the Bible and its God. So, what else would I think but that you don't like the Bible. Yes, you like parts of it that you choose to like. You know there is poetry there. Sometimes it is very elevated, beautiful language that the Bible uses. It can be like a lovely song. We read the words, we hear them, but don't really fully believe them. We judge them and do what ever we please.

In order to understand my posts, you would have to put yourself in my shoes. Pretend for a moment that you could prove God's existence. You could prove the Bible to be His word. Then if there is a God, and He created this wonderful earth for us, and then loved us so much that He paid the penalty for our horrible stupid failures, then we owe Him a debt of enormous gratitude. We should respect Him, listen to what He says, and not try to define Him, and not chose what part of Him we will accept and won't.

But, our human nature is vain. We believe we can think big--even bigger than God. We believe we can define Him. We know right from wrong.

But, I tell you, in all honesty. I actually know this being. I know who He is, and that fact gives me a real sense for what I next say. In that context, I guarantee that if you or I or any of the others on this forum were standing by the mount when He gave the commandments, we would shake, tremble, and poop our pants just like they did. It would not matter the size of our muscles, the size of our intellect, or the size of our genitals, all the things we think are important.

Trust me, you would completely believe Him then. You would even obey Him then. But, don't think by this that I don't understand your position. To you, it is just a book written by men. You don't understand it, and so you are doing the best you can to make sense of it all.

So, in doing so, one of the things we do is define God for ourselves. We make God into a manageable god--one that fits us, our needs, and our likes and dislikes.

The ancient Israelites read the Bible, but they included Baal in their worship too. God warned and warned and warned. Finally there came a time when words were not enough. He had them taken captive and they are lost to history to this day.

So,we can like parts of the Bible. We can use those parts that we like to justify our personal beliefs. God is allowing us to do this in order to learn the lesson of human history that our way does not work. The end result of going our way is pain suffering and sorrow.

Thus, the scriptures are true, but must not be interpreted by us:

Just imagine people giving their lives for the scriptures and belief in the God of the Bible, and yet it was really just their concoction. That would be dumb. But, those who wrote later said:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Further, this writers also states:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

In the verse above, He clearly tells us how to understand the Bible. We must not interpret it. It will interpret itself.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Then, there are these scary verses about God and His relationship to us. He chides man for thinking that God is like us, and then He says:

Psa 50:22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

You get my point. It is not all nicey-nice stuff. There is a sobering reality to what we believe and why we believe it. Many read the Bible, but reject the authority of God and the consequences for not listening to Him.

I understand it. I've been there and done that. But, I know better now. I may not write well. I may not say it so you can understand it very well. For that I apologize. For my belief in the Bible and its God, it is based on evidence, proof, and logic--not feelings, and not my own ideas.

Art

This is precisely the kind of narrow-minded mentality that I seriously have no tolerance for any longer. The idea that we either believe in the biblical picture of God or we are rejecting God is utter nonsense. And I refuse to give any respect to that notion whatsoever.

It’s impossible to reject a God that you don’t even believe in! That’s a meaningless concept in and of itself. Any genuine supreme being would see the absurdity to such thinking. This is just one more reason why the idea that a God that would expect people to believe in a specific doctrine is an absurd idea to begin with.

A disbelief in the Bible does not equate to the rejection of God.



Exactly. The whole idea that there is a difference between the spiritual world and the physical world is nothing more than a misconception of man to begin with. And the biblical picture of God is genuinely blinded by this misconception.

Not to mention the whole “battle” thing. The biblical picture of God is all about God triumphing over the devil and becoming the ultimate ruler of his kingdom. Well, how silly is that? If God was all there was in the first place why would he need to win any battles to rule over his own creation????

I make absolutely no apologies for holding the view that the biblical picture of God is utterly absurd. This is my honest view. And if people can voice their opinion about how much they believe it, then I should be able to voice my opinion of how utterly absurd it appears to me.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with any notion of “rejecting God”. On the contrary, I feel that God is far greater and more majestic than this utterly nonsensical biblical picture. If anything, I stand up and rejoice God’s true magnificence. I denounce the sick demented fairytales of men who have created a truly egotistical view of God.

Why???

Why would God copy the very same scenario that had previously been described by men in their own mythologies?

myth.....hmmmmm I don't think ever once have I ever heard the Bible being referred to as "The Bible Myth" The Bible applies then, now, and always......Think what a awesome God that is........You can apply his word always.....no matter what.......what situation.......

You state no evidence, and here we go again. We will define God!



God did not copy those mythologies. They copied God's.

Throughout history, there has always the true and the counterfeit. God is true. The Devil is false. God's way is right, ours selfish, and ultimately wrong. There was God's way and Baal's way. The people had to decide. But Baal looked attractive--legitimate to some.

There was Janes and Jambres who were types of the end time Beast and false prophet in conflict with Moses and Aaron, types of the two witnesses before the trumpet plagues, and God taking His people out of this corrupt world by a resurrection.

There is Christmas with Santa the god Saturn, Easter with the fertility goddess Ishtar, and Halloween celebrating the Lord of the Dead. These are counterfeits that existed long before God revealed His true Holy days.

Thus, there have always been false Messiahs. The reason is that there is a counterfeit god who rules this earth. It is Satan the Devil and he has deceived the entire world. The early false Messiahs are part of his deception, and you, like many others, fall for it. That is why they existed.

Art

Actually, the mistake is in reading the sequence of events. The days were 24 hour days. Thus the plants created on one day had insects and birds to pollinate them the next day. They did not have to wait a thousand years or billing years for that.

Further, people misread Genesis, not realizing that there was a world that existed before mankind. It was reptilian, and ruled by Lucifer who later became the dragon, Satan. The angels that followed him, left their first estate, and ascended to the throne of God. There was enormous war, and then the six days of creation were actually re-creation after the destruction. This time, the man like creatures were made in God's image, and life was warm blooded. If you read Genesis one you will see that the earth already existed before God separated the light from the darkness.



So, rather than believe the Bible, we must make things up in our mind. Watch the rest of this reasoning.



Ok, I'll buy. That makes sense. Either it was written by men or it was inspirited by God and written by men.



Whoa!!!!

No no no no!

Number one, only a fool would grab the Bible and believe it. So, first you color this scenario with silliness, demeaning the bible reader. God says prove me. Paul says prove all things, and hold fast what is true. Sincere Bible readers prove what they read.

But, then you contradict your own statement.

You say that Bible believers put their faith in man, when you actually defined their faith as being that the Bible is inspired by God. This is a huge difference. It is playing with words to win your argument.

Then to say that being a scientist and studying the universe is
putting your faith in God? To me this is goofy. First of all, the scientists repeatedly have had to admit how they were wrong the first, second and sometimes third time around. They did not know the earth was round and hung on nothing. They did not know that you should wash after touching an unclean body. They did not know that certain meats caused illness. God explained it all to us. But, we don't believe Him.

So, anyway, believing the scientists if not faith in God. The universe does not tell us not to have images, not to have other gods. It does not say what day to worship on. It does not say to us, don't lie, cheat, steal and honor your parents.

That is so nuts. I apologize for my attitude, but people write stuff and others are comforted by it. Some actually believe it. But it it makes no sense.

The truth is that true science does not contradict the Bible. There is true science and a false scientific theories and ideas that have been shown to be false. Speaking of the ancient gnostic studies, Paul writes:

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

I suggest that the Bible is true, and when correctly understood, by letting it interpret itself, then we can believe it, and by following its precepts, we can live a successful life. If it is making lots of money, going to the moon, or advancing technology, then science has a place.

That place is in the arena of physical laws, laws created by God by the way. That place has nothing to do with the spiritual laws that exist. Those can only be known by the scriptures.



My friend, there is no conflict with the Bible and science. Nowhere. And, it is silly to base your belief morally on science.



This is where you again manipulate words. No one is choosing to base their life on a book written by men. We choose to base our life on a book that we believe based on evidence is inspired by God.

There is no way that the Bible could have known all those things about the earth and bacterial before science without it being inspired.

You can't tell me that you are not prejudiced. You ignore the truth, and you twist words to make things seem to fit your scenario. Be honest.

Art

I’m talking about the myths that the biblical stories copied! Even you believe those stories are myths, unless you believe in a whole lot of different Gods including Zeus!

That’s impossible because the mythologies were written first.



Not according to the Genesis,…

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

According to this the evening and the morning were the first day and the earth was still without form.

Definitely not earthy days. It doesn’t even make sense to try to take this literally. Any attempt to try to make the Bible into a literal account will necessarily fail, because it’s clearly not a literal account of anything.



You claim that the Bible says these things. Where are they written?

According to Genesis the earth was without form prior to God’s creation. If there is a contradicting account of creation in the same book then the book is clearly inconsistent. Why would the supreme creator of our universe write a book that contains so many inconsistencies and self-contradictions? And which account should we believe when accounts conflict?



What you fail to realize Art is that the Bible was made up in the minds of men. You think that just because you adhere to ancient stories that this gives your belief more validity than another other belief but that’s not true.

The same thing could be argued about Greek Mythology! Why not believe in Greek Mythology???

You don’t believe in it because you believe it was just made up by men.

Well, duh!

This is precisely what I’m saying about the Bible!!!



Where’s your proof of any divinity of the Bible? Showing that some places and people actually existed is not proof of divinity. That can be shown with Greek Mythology too! That doesn’t prove its divinity.

Show me any proof of the divine claims of the Bible? There isn’t any Art. If there were proof of the Bible it would be world renowned. We know that there is no proof for the Bible! All such claims for proof of the Bible are bogus and have been shown to be nothing more than wishful thinking. There is no proof of the Bible’s divinity. On the contrary, there is overwhelming observational evidence that its claims are not based on truth.

(i.e. we can clearly see that the world was not perfect before man even came onto the scene much less before he fell to sin) Yet the Bible holds man responsible for these imperfections in the world. It's clearly wrong. Man can't be responsible for imperfections that existed before he did!

That's enough right there for me to toss the book on the self marked fiction.

Actualy that is sort of what I ahve been saying all along. the big difference being you seem to take the bible as a litterate work, while I on the other hand dont. Rather I am looking a tthe commanders intent.

What do you see as out of order i the bible. Understand that the bible of today is not the bible of yesterday. Chapters were moved around, included and excluded for centries before the Catholic church finaly sat down and said, here, this is the bible.

Also, your argument that God copied mythology becasue mythology was weitten first doesnt hold water. The notion that something dosn texist or never happened until man wrote about it is laughable at best.

You lost me on that one.

I don’t understand your conclusion that I somehow implied that something doesn’t exist or never happened until man wrote about.

I’m saying that the stories in the New Testament, specifically about Jesus, (a man with divine origins is born of a mortal woman) had been told countless times in many differnet myths.

It’s not unique to the Bible. It was told by men in many different cultures before Jesus was born. Yet those stories are considered by Christians to be entirely man-made myths. So how would those men have known to make up fictional stories that just coincidently would later match up to what the real creator of the universe was planning to do???

For me, it makes much more sense that the stories in the Bible were inspired by the ancient man-made myths that came before them.

Art I am truly humbled by you.......Your an inspiration and truly one who knows the Lord God, creator of the heavens and earth........and I just never tire of learning from you.

A simple question to all who hold the opinion that the Bible is the inspired and infallible word of 'God'...



Is God all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful?

Regarding the book, it was not written to control men, but to enlighten them in the way that they should live successful lives. The purpose of the book is to prevent pollution, wars, disease, and famine, divorce, teenage gangs, violence in our cities, and all the rest of the terrible stuff you see on Fox News and don't like about our life today.

Then, discussing the appearance of matter, you agree that science has no clue. But, ironically, the Bible that you put down, actually does have a clue. It clearly says that matter was not created out of nothing. Matter was created out of invisible spirit:

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

God changed spirit to matter in an explosion so great that it sent entire galaxies spinning into space at millions of miles per hour.



This is nonsense. Do you think that the distribution of Christian values is the dumbing down of the personal values of the Hindus who drink urine and put cow dung on their heads?

Do you think that the distribution of Christian values dumbs down the personal values of those who want to practice voodoo?

However, many to think that the distribution of Christian values is the dumbing down of the personal values of those who want to be licentious, to use women for our personal pleasure, and not give them the security of marriage in return. We don't want to dumb down those those personal high moral standards that cause us to pass diseases around the young people--do we? We don't want anything to impinge on the exercise of our personal values no matter who we hurt.

The values and standards of the Bible are there to free us. There are immutable laws that govern our universe. When we break laws, physical, emotional, or spiritual, there is a consequence. The Bible is written to show the history of those who did not keep its values. It is to show us the way that works without causing suffering to others and ourselves.

But, if you really want to keep lying, stealing, dishonoring your parents, hating others, hurting them, and committing any sex acts you want, of course the Bible is a problem.

That nasty old Bible is dumbing you down. It is bringing you back to reality, and making real common sense that puts our nonsense into an embarrassing perspective. We want to think that we can do what we want and there are no consequences. Man! Look around at the world that we have created by not following God.

Maybe someday, we will give Him a chance, and actually try His way and see what happens.



Do you think that I am arrogant in what I say? Does it bother you? I say what I say after decades of research and proof. I can say dogmatically what the scriptures say. I can also tell you dogmatically answers about air conditioning. I was in that field for 27 years. I know my trade, and I know the Bible. Is there a problem with knowing what you believe today? Is there a problem with passion for our beliefs?

What is interesting to me, is that you actually speak dogmatically, and in so doing, you accuse others of trying to convince people of things. But the truth is the opposite of what you say. It is you who are trying to convince. And, to do so, you ridicule, make up stories about why the Bible was written, and by who, and then you offer no evidence, just your feelings about the subject.

For example


But you don't. You share it here to ridicule the Bible and those who believe in it.

Art

I have to go but Im not familiar with the countless tales of virgin birth that predates Jesus. Please enlighten me.

Please point out the specific myths cristianity is copying, please dont utilize dogma or anything thats was changed to get converts, specifically during Roman tims. I am asking for myths that copy the generic version of Christianity, the virgin birth and creationism.

What I was saying before that wasnt clear was, just becasue one thing was written before something else was written doesnt mean the one that was written about first happened first.