In his original post he used a Judeo Christian definition of god, ie: moral and just. Further arguments used statments countering the judeo Christina belief. Therefore, I contend and still contend, though maybe unententional, is soley arguing agasainst the Judeo Christianity idea of God.

Regardless, I never said he was attacking a religion. I said the argument he was using was flawed because it was human. I never even said if I agreed with him or not.

Nor did I attempt to make a presumption regarding his partiality and fail to see how you could have gotten that from my post.

Thats my exact point, you cant argue agaisnt God from a spititualistic stance while being human. we as humans are forever flawed. Just becasue we used to think the world was flat didnt make it so. You cant attempt to understand why God woudl do what he/she has done from a Human perspective.

Art:

I believe that 'God' is everything... everything and nothing...

Being everything simultaneously does not allow comparison or reason...

Reason is a product of knowledge...

Knowledge begins with experience...

Experience requires an agent to be 'different' from it's surroundings...

God is not different from 'God'...

If you could only hear yourself. You have a great vocabulary, but don't make sense. Please don't get offended, but rather think about the statement.

The Bible existed for thousands of years. It told us that the earth was round, that it was hung on nothing. It told us the values upon which our modern government was founding with its human rights, property rights, and family values. That government even acknowledges the fact that we are created by God and that this is the basis for these rights. This gave rise to the most power nations in the world. The Bible prophesied the nations that would come and go on the earth in Western Civilization. In Daniel, it foretold the year that the Messiah would arrive. The Jews were expect Him, looking for Him for this reason, asking John or Him if they were the ones.

On the other hand, you have existed a few short years, and you have created nothing like the Bible. You have opinions that you cannot back up with any proof. You judge God and the Bible which you don't understand. This is so ironic to me, but you understand it does not make real sense.



You have this backwards. That which is an ethereal, nebulous thought in your head, has no values at all. You can't do anything with it. You can't depend on it. You don't know if it is true or not. You can't build a system of belief on it. It is worthless.

To me there is one and only one value that it offers. Its only value to you is that it keeps you from having to submit to a real defined God with authority. You don't like the authority and thus, you can justify your position by making up your own god that no one can define. Nice work.

Only truth that can be defined has value. Only a person who you know what they believe and know how they will act has value to you as a friend.

Only a God that is real, and not a figment of our imagination, has value.

Art

Rather than go through your post and refute things Art, I want to ask you then... can you define God?

I don’t think anyone questions the intelligence of the creator of this universe.

What they are questioning is whether the biblical picture of God is correct.

From my point of view the biblical picture of God conflicts with what we actually see if we “look around”.

So why would God have gotten the details about his own creation wrong? This reveals to me that the Bible can’t possibly be from the creator of this universe. Clearly whoever wrote the Bible didn’t even understand how the universe works, or its history!

Steve:

You said:
******* Thats my exact point, you cant argue agaisnt God from a spititualistic stance while being human. we as humans are forever flawed. Just becasue we used to think the world was flat didnt make it so. You cant attempt to understand why God woudl do what he/she has done from a Human perspective.******

So what then, makes the authors of the bible any different?

to understand Christianity you have to accept that God is the author of the bible, not man.

You would have a easier time arguing the falability of the Bible than that of God.

Steve:

I have already quite clearly laid out why I beleive that is not the case...

And to believe that you'd have to believe that God didn't even know the truth of his own creation.

This is why I'm certain that the Bible can't be from God.

I don't believe you will ever find one. You would have want to find the argument, in order to find it. You can't if you are prejudiced.




This reasoning is so beneath you. We all want to blame someone for our wrongs. Why not God? He created us after all. It is His fault.

I don't know if you are a parent or not, but if you have had this role, you realize that you created another human being. You existed before them. Creating them is the greatest thing you could do. Providing for them, and teaching them is a welcomed responsibility.

So, you teach them right and wrong. They believe you at first. Then, they question it, and do things against your teaching. They experience the painful results of doing stupid things, and should the children blame the parents?

You understand the parable. God is not to blame for our evil. He created us, told us how the best way to live was, and we turned against God. We decided to choose for ourself what was right and wrong. As a result, we create hell on earth, and then we blame God. There you go. We are such great philosophers.

The atheists reject the idea of an anthropomorphic God. But, that was God's intention from the beginning. He created the physical world, the animals, and us after a pattern that already existed. In this way, we can understand God. Thus, the scriptures state:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

As someone said in another post. It is a thought.

Art

Well I dont know about clearly, but it doenst matter if you belive that is the case or not. You cant argue agaisnt God himself within a religion, because he is God, he will always be right wheather you agree or believe or not.

Im sorry, that didnt make a lick of sense to me at all.

Well, of course it won't if you only look to the Bible for your answers. How are you going to know that it's wrong if you don't look outside of it?

We went through this before. I should not, and must not define Him. That is the entire problem with humanity today. That is the reason for the commandment, no other gods. It is the basis for the second command no images. It is the basis for the third command, not to take His name in vain. Everyone wants to define God. They want to interpret His word, and this is the very reason that they have it all wrong.

God defines Himself. The scriptures will interpret themselves. By believing what God says, and what His word says without interpretation is the only way we can understand.

So, did you read those verses that I posted in which God defines Himself? Or did you just bypass them because they were from the Bible and you don't like the Bible? I don't understand why you don't remember this.

Just wondering,

Art

No, I mean what you said didnt make a lick of sense to me, please rephrase it.

Art, I have never blamed God for the choice of a man...

Actually that doesnt make since either, you are stating opinions that you cant prove either. Please prove God doesnt exist. You cant prove he doesn tanymopre than anybody else can prove that he does. Neither can you prove that the Bible is wrong. The Bible is a belief system written by man, believed to be dictated by god. If you cant accept that basic assumption then you will never understand Christianity.

Oops! Sorry.

To believe that,.. (that the Bible is written by God) you'd have to believe that God didn't even know the truth of his own creation (i.e. he didn't correctly describe what we actually see the universe to be like).

This is why I'm certain that the Bible can't be from God.

I realize that many Christians denounce, evolution, and even fossil records. Many even denounce the observed age of the earth.

However, I personally feel that the evidence for all of these things is rock solid (no pun intended).

So carnivores clearly roamed the earth long before man ever came on the scene. The idea that man is responsible for an "imperfect world" as the Bible claims cannot possibly be true.

Therefore whoever wrote the Bible had no clue about the true nature of the universe.

Could God not have had a clue about his own universe?

I don't think so. Therefore the Bible cannot possibly be the word of God.

I fully understand this basic assumption. All I'm saying is that it's clearly an incorrect assumption.

By the way, I do fully understand Chrsitianty. And this is why I don't believe a word of it.